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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/17/2011 7:49:13 PM

hausboy

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You are missing the bigger picture though. If transgender people had better access to healthcare and treatment and did not face the blatant bigotry and ignorance that you have so proudly touted, they would not have to turn to the sex trade or the streets.

That woman in Starbucks....did you laugh, too? Because if you did, you are no better than the asshats behind the counter snickering like the immature morons they are.

We had an incident here in Baltimore that made national news--a transgender woman was viciously attacked in a McDonalds while the employees watched, laughed, and put the whole thing on youtube. Do you know what really made me proud? The older woman (who did not know the victim) who tried to stop the two teenagers who were doing the beating.....she stepped in to help a stranger and was assaulted as well. People all over were talking about the incident, and even those who did not have any understanding of TG issues...people who were highly conservative....many were simply saying "that was fucked up. people have a right to just live their lives"

This issue is simply a human issue. Good people treat other people with kindness, respect and compassion.....even if they look, walk, talk differently from them.

I have received a ton of CMails from good people, offering support and kind words. People who can look beyond differences. The more venom you type, the more you will alienate yourself from good people who will see you for what you spew: immaturity and ignorance.

< Message edited by hausboy -- 11/17/2011 7:51:12 PM >

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Post #: 281

RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/17/2011 9:16:07 PM

LillyBoPeep

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I remember that McDonald's thing -- reeeeally bad deal there. =(

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/17/2011 10:00:39 PM

HeatherMcLeather

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And the results are in!

This time, in addition to asking around our schools, we made the rounds at a mall as well. There are some noticeable differences between the answers of the students and those of the public at large. The difference between the men and women in question #2 was sort of surprising as well.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/17/2011 10:03:42 PM

HeatherMcLeather

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That's hard to see isn't it. Here, I made it bigger.

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Post #: 284

RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/17/2011 11:05:40 PM

GreedyTop

Posts: 52100
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*applauds* well done!

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Post #: 285

RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/18/2011 12:29:31 AM

crazyml

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Bloody brilliant!

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Post #: 286

RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/18/2011 12:38:36 AM

crazyml

Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

quote:

Could you please point out where I said that DarkSteven thought that any TG that has underwent the operation will be full of joy/happiness?

I'm guessing thats a "no" - It'll be a no because you know I never made such a claim.

quote:

Look, I don't know if I'm going to have to copy/paste the same reply to you over and over but all of your posts in this thread directed towards me have been riddled with some desperate attempt to prove me wrong.

Please don't copy/paste the same reply to me over and over - that would just be stupid.

I've been really very patient with you, despite your repeating the same error of comprehension and despite my making genuine efforts to help you understand it.

quote:

Now I'm going to address this one last time, so pay attention:

By defending him you have supported and reinforced his skewed perception that "a few TGs I know" speaks for every TG. How can I make this claim? I didn't have to, he did it for me by saying "universally." Since you like analogies, let me give you one...

"When I was driving through Chinatown in Toronto at 3 AM I nearly got into three car accidents from Asian drivers so universally-speaking they are bad drivers."

What I have just said was retarded. I put an expectation on an entire group of people much like DarkSteven's belief that from his few TG friends that have been happier post-op, must mean that every other TG is happier post-op.

Now because DarkSteven only knows a few TGs (which make up his 'universe') let's look at my analogy and say that I just came to Canada after living in Romania all my life and never met an Asian person. With my brief interaction, my universal perception of them is that they are all bad drivers. That is the assumption that I will now have when I see one on the road and if I one day see a good Asian driver (or in DarkSteven's case, a miserable post-op transsexual) then my initial universal view was wrong. It was destined to be wrong from the beginning. This makes what he said ignorant.

What he did was an illogical inference.

As I said before, your defense of his ostentatious claim is upholding it and supporting it.

I maintain that he made no illogical inference, and that the foolishness is yours.

Since I really doubt we're going to close this, I'm happy to move on, and if you genuinely believe I'm wrong then while I'm sorry I've not been able to help you with your confusion, but I'm really not going to lose any sleep over it!

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Post #: 287

RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/18/2011 6:07:12 AM

OttersSwim

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Heather, many many thanks to you and yours for taking the time from your busy day to do this survey!

I have to say that I feel that your data reflects my overall experience and belief that the public at large is generally becoming more open to transgendered people.

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Post #: 288

RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/18/2011 10:46:30 AM

NocturnalStalker

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quote:

I have to say that I feel that your data reflects my overall experience and belief that the public at large is generally becoming more open to transgendered people.

Hold on right there. Now I've also spent the better part of my evening last night and my morning today, going around and asking people in Toronto (both in my university and on the street) the very same questions. You'll have to excuse my lack of Microsoft Excel spreadsheet but I have my trusty notebook.

The total number of people asked at my university was 100. The number of people asked on the street was 40. Fifty male, fifty female at school. Twenty male, twenty female outside of it. Questions were as follows...

Would be friends with a transsexual? 40 males responded with "No." 35 females responded with "No." Streetwise: 17 males responded with "No." 18 females responded with "No."

Would have sexual relations with a transsexual? 49 males responded with "No." 45 females responded with "No." Streetwise: All twenty males said "No." 19 females said "No."

Would have a relationship with a transsexual? See above.

Do you consider transsexuals freaks? 15 males responded with "Yes." 6 females responded with "Yes." Streetwise: 14 males responded with "Yes." 9 females responded with "Yes."

Do you think transsexuals are happier after transitioning? 46 males responded with "No." 45 females responded with "No." Streetwise: 16 males responded with "No." 16 females responded with "No."

Now I went one further and asked what made them come to that conclusion on each question to draw a pattern from. I had asked each person, while in a public setting, in a more remote location so they could not be overheard and naturally draw the most honest answer from. This is what popular opinion was on each question:

Would be friends with a transsexual?
"A friendship would not work out because for those questioned due to the inability to not only relate but because it would take much more work due to the social stigma a transsexual faces and possibly give incorrect impressions to those around them. They would feel less of a friend and more of a guardian."

Would have sexual relations with a transsexual?
"Sex was out for those questioned because of being unable to see them as anything but their biological sex."

Would have a relationship with a transsexual?
"Much like above, they are unable to see them in their new form while knowing that once they were totally different."

Do you consider transsexuals freaks?
"Many said 'no' because of freedom to do what they want with their life."

Do you think transsexuals are happier after transitioning?
"The majority of those asked claimed they are fully aware that after transitioning, transsexuals are often ridiculed and not accepted by the mainstream. That though they may 'feel right' it does not prevent them from being ostracized."

Take what you will from that.

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Post #: 289

RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/18/2011 11:42:40 AM

ChatteParfaitt

Posts: 6562
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Using fast reply.

I had to back away from this thread, b/c the subject is so personal to me. And no, I am not TG. But I do have a close family member who is intersexed and was one of the first people in the world to undergo surgery (in Sweden in the very early 60s). I know first hand from a very young age how she was treated by my own father (like a monster).

My mother, to my huge surprise, defied him (one of the few times in their long marriage it was so M/s) and stuck by her sister. To this day I am so proud of her for that.

I had to post the link about fetuses all starting out alike, b/c if to be intersexed or transgendered is to be a monster, we all start out as one. Early on a genetic switch is thrown; some fetuses remain female, others go on to be male. What science is learning about this genetic switch is fascinating.

There are now clear indications that homosexuals are not a "mistake" (what science originally thought), they are a normal, natural part of human genetics. But what specifically "makes" a homosexual can be altered by minute alterations in diet or environment.

I very much look forward to new scientific understanding about the intersexed and transgendered.

I have to point out something that I consider very important. I did anser Heather's poll, but I too did it wrong. The first section asks for male or female. And I responded, like most of us did. Well. why is that? B/c this is how our society categorizes us. How many of us waited for Heather's explanation?

I would say very few. To be male, or to be female, in this society is WHO YOU ARE. To have a crisis every time that question comes up, well, I cannot imagine the pain. It is so intrinsic to who and what we are.

A discussion about why that is would be interesting.

I have to thank so many who contributed on this thread, I suspect (hope) they know who they are.

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Post #: 290

RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/18/2011 2:32:20 PM

HeatherMcLeather

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Well, I'm willing to accept that he got the results he did. The differences can be attributed to two factors.
First, a guy asking the questions. In one of our previous surveys we got some guys to ask the same questions, and the results were markedly different.
And second, he asked about "transsexuals", and we asked about "post-op transsexuals". I suspect that to most people "transsexual" will bring to mind a she-male. That's why I specified post-op, to avoid the chicks with dicks thing.

I also noticed that the data extraction spreadsheet I made to present the results is fubar for some reason. it has the wrong numbers for some reason <not as good at Excel as I thought I was

>. Anyway, I'll have Hanners look at it to see where I messed up and fix it.

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Post #: 291

RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/18/2011 3:01:21 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/apr/25/transgender-rights

Getting a 'Page Not Found' for that link, NS . . . . Shame, because if it's the Guardian, I'd trust it.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/18/2011 3:20:32 PM

NocturnalStalker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/apr/25/transgender-rights

Getting a 'Page Not Found' for that link, NS . . . . Shame, because if it's the Guardian, I'd trust it.

No idea why unless there is some minor hiccup in the link when I copied it. If interested, do a Google search for, "What problems do transgender people face" and it should be a few links down. The article by Renee Martin.

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Post #: 293

RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/18/2011 4:05:09 PM

HeatherMcLeather

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Well, my social issues are due to my stuttering, however, I am perfectly able to read without stuttering so I have no problems asking awkward questions if I have a paper to read them off of <I actually like the reaction I get, its fun watching them stammer and blush>, and my intense dislike for you doesn't extend beyond the posts I am replying to, I really don't spend any time thinking about you other than that. Why would I, you're just an one of several trolls on one of the several forums I frequent, and not even a particularly good or unpleasant one at that. In fact you're really one of the more innocuous trolls <you're too full of yourself and too obvious>, the only reason I dislike you is because of your penchant for making particularly nasty unprovoked attacks on me and my girlfriends.

Now, that all being said, we can get back to ignoring NS and his make believe opinions <personally I suspect Arpig is right about the reality of his survey, mostly because I don't believe that he would bother doing it because he doesn't actually give a damn about the issue.>, here are the correct numbers from our survey.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/18/2011 4:25:55 PM

crazyml

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Thanks for posting the correction.

It's worth noting that you surveyed more people than the person whose Masters Diss I linked to above!

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Post #: 295

RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/18/2011 5:58:20 PM

PolyDommesgirl

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Awareness, I have felt that way.

There is an unusual atmosphere around many heterosexual men for me. I notice it more, being in rural Canada. I also notice it at high testosterone events like sports games and sports bars.

Fortunately for me i identify as lesbian. As such I am not looking for men.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/18/2011 6:53:32 PM

NocturnalStalker

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quote:

Now, that all being said, we can get back to ignoring NS and his make believe opinions <personally I suspect Arpig is right about the reality of his survey, mostly because I don't believe that he would bother doing it because he doesn't actually give a damn about the issue.>, here are the correct numbers from our survey.

Oh, make believe? http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/06/workplace_discrimination.html

Here is another article that touches yet again on the social intolerance that transgendered people typically deal with. This was as recent as June 2011, by the way so it is obviously a prevalent issue to this day. Here's some more: http://transequality.org/news.html

Now since you enjoy surveys so much, here is something most curious concerning my make believe opinion...

"NCTE has submitted testimony to the US Commission on Civil Rights that focuses on research showing how severe and widespread violence against LGBT youth is. Given that 82% of transgender youth do not feel safe in their own schools, we outline several policy steps that could be taken to help end peer bullying and violence."

This is near the bottom of the page I just linked and there is an option to click on a link which will bring you to a PDF document.

I won't even bother addressing the venomous claim that I "do not care." That is just stupid.

Now I'll leave you with one quote retrieved from the PDF that you can view if you decide to:

"A transgender girl in a focus group study reported one incident that occurred when she was walking home from school on her fourteenth birthday:
These guys followed me saying that I was a gay male. I was with my friend, and they started chasing us around. They threw me in the trash. They started calling me names like homo and hit me. My friend, a guy, saved me. Well, it made me feel like, “Wow! If I have to go through this in order to live happy, I just didn‟t want to be alive.” (Grossman et al. 2009)."

Wait, but I thought if you transitioned you were happy as happy can be?

Hm...

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Post #: 297

RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/18/2011 7:54:47 PM

peachgirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

Your failure to recognise that your thinking is ultimately motivated purely by self-interest has resulted in an arrogance which does you no favours when dealing with people who don't believe your story. The battle for acceptance in society is about winning hearts and minds, not running around screaming at people that they've got issues.

Irony.

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Post #: 298

RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/18/2011 8:55:48 PM

cloudboy

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quote:

It is my opinion that for most trans folk in the western world, life is not necessarily harder or easier than for anyone else facing a "systemic life challenge" which is what I consider being transgendered to be.

We buck the system in search of self and authenticity just like a lot of other folk do and we face a number of challenges to our lives that can really suck, and even threaten life and limb.

But honestly, my own personal experience has never really been anything but positive, and especially in the BDSM crowd here in Colorado, people have just been lovely and very accepting.

I think transgender folk have significantly greater challenges before them then others. Its almost too hard for me to imagine. HUNG's last episode featured a M2F character, and I thought it depicted the steep climb before such a person.

In MD a M2F transgender woman was nearly beaten to death by two other women for trying to use the ladies room.

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Post #: 299

RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/18/2011 10:19:17 PM

SixMore2Go

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Your posts over the last few pages. Utter drivel for the most part. Post after post banging your head against reality arguing the use of the word universal means what it does not in the context it was used. Whole paragraphs on it in page after page, insisting the bearded fellow meant something completely opposite to what he did mean ...which meaning was perfectly clear to me ... even when he clarified his meaning his ownself you still insisted that wasn't what he meant.

Then there's replying to the piggish industrialist's complaints about your survey by attacking the other survey, and further doing so on a mighty flimsy and egotistical basis. You do realize, do you not, that only one of the four girls who performed that survey have expressed any particular opinion of the matter under contention and that only in the most cursory manner in the poll thread, do you not? And are you also aware that the survey results in part showed that her expressed opinions were not those of the majority, yet she posted those results all the same.

And further there is you replying to the bird with the leaf on her bum's accusation that you're just trolling and pretending to care with more sarcastic attempts to prove your point as if that in some way refuted rather than supported her claims. Then there is the presenting of studies to refute things others have not said in an attempt to back up things you have not said. And also the presenting of stories about how wankers such as yourself attack and abuse transsexuals as proof that they would be happier and better off if they would but shut their gobs and suffered in dignified silence.

And then your reply to the other Canadian bird who was, I do believe, pointing out the very same thing I am now, which clearly shows that you didn't even begin to grasp what was said ... a condition that has lasted for a few pages now.

Though, to be completely honest, I have half an inclination to say that you are not trolling so much as playing agent provocateur, that you're championing this cause in such a God awful manner because you hold the exact opposite views and its your wish to discredit those who truly hold the views you are espousing. But, as tempting a theory as that may be, I have yet to see any indication from you that you have the intelligence, the patience, the self control, or the subtlety required for that stratagem to be the case. Mind of course, I haven't made an extensive study of your posting history, just a quick look see at the last 100 posts or so, which were on the whole nothing but shite playing dressup. You talk a decent game for the most part, but there really doesn't appear to be much behind it really, far too much pouting, posturing, and whining for me to take you seriously as aught but a spoiled little boy who thinks he's far smarter than he is and who is desperate for whatever scraps of attention he can get. I'm thinking you're awfully lonely for the most part.

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