RE: The Transgender Thread (Full Version)

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xssve -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 9:15:42 AM)

I think you'll find that any time politicians make political hay about gender issues, violence will increase, and it's a perpetual political football, the transgendered are an easy target, not a large enough voting demographic to cause a politician anxiety, and there are plenty of people with deep seated anti-social personality disorders to play on.

This became in issue here in the states not too long ago, after the murder of George Tiller, when Glen Beck and others were censured for inciting violence, so I think the public is not entirely unaware of this dynamic, even if unethical speech is not current;y the exact same thing as illegal speech - there is a point, I believe, when op-ed crosses over into conspiracy, and that is something to keep an eye on.



PolyDommesgirl -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 9:24:06 AM)

[Humbly], Thank you LillyBoPeep.



NocturnalStalker -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 9:24:49 AM)

quote:

Welcome to reality 101. We're not arguing.


Oh, forgive me.  I thought we were having a disagreement/differing points of view.  Which we were, but don't let me stop you.

quote:

Its me opinion, its not open to debate.


Yes your opinion that served exclusively as a bias towards my personal character more than my actual argument.  Forgive me for defending myself against the accusations of the misinformed.

quote:

Now you may indeed think my reasons are insufficient for the conclusion I've drawn. And if that be the case, and you're even half-way intelligent, you simply make a little mental note "That drunken Irish bum's opinion of meself is based on twaddle, so its nothing to concern meself about".


Oh believe me that mental note has been cemented but I like to always have this bizarre notion that somebody that I often disagree with can occasionally say something that I do agree with.  Now since I've read only a handful of your posts (much like you read a handful of mine - at least when you consider the post count) I asked you what would leave you to believe this claim of myself "not being bright."  Now I had expected you, since you do not know me much at all or my "posting style" to actually maybe make some good points I may not have detected in my argument.  Instead what I got was just one big, appeal-to-popularity. 

A little fleeting of you, no?

quote:

What you don't do, is argue with me about it, trying to prove me wrong. That's just pointless, it can't be done other than by actions which counter the impressions made by previous actions.


But that is a pointless endeavor unless I either repress my true feelings on subjects and conform to "what everyone on CM is saying."  You see what you're unable to grasp is not that you're not liking my argument, you're simply not liking me.  That is fine by me and I'm not saying anybody should like me.  However, much like you expertly demonstrated, too often do people on here allow their spite to take control of their thoughts.  What someone like yourself winds up doing most often is attacking a person rather than their view related to the topic at hand and this is what causes derails and eventual locking of topics. 

You're not seeing the primary purpose that a forum provides.  It allows for interaction and different views to be presented.  When these views conflict, we have a discussion or argument about them about our views.  When one person in this discussion deviates and begins blatantly insulting the other person then guess what?  You're just looking like you never had much of a point to begin with. 

So while I could play the CM Caste game with some of you, I'd rather not sacrifice my spine in doing so. 


quote:

Now, what you did was stupid. And whether your points are valid or no is of no consequence, it was the way you replied that was none too bright.. And its even less so to reply to me the way you have.


And this is where I remind you it is the "Transgendered Thread" and not the, "NocturnalStalker ate my lunch and I hate him for it thread."  As mentioned, when you made the claim of "not being bright" I naturally assumed you would attack the argument I was making in context of the thread. 

My suggestion for yourself and those with a similar mind set is to actually read, absorb, reflect what others say. 







NocturnalStalker -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 9:38:38 AM)

Thank you for your polite post, PolyDommesGirl. 

Now you saying that society should not make a big deal of gender, it is a little hard simply because this is how the world has "worked" for so long.  While there can be strides taken to try and diminish the importance, there will be someone like me that questions, "If gender is not such a big deal, why should a transsexual-minded person care what they are in the end?  Shouldn't they simply just be happy with what they are given?  Wouldn't the very process of SRS betray the notion of that gender is now not a big deal?" 

I may be interpreting your message wrong (and that is likely since I've had four hours of sleep) so feel free to correct me. 



hausboy -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 9:46:08 AM)

Hi Cherylmazana

The difference:  you posted something relevant, articulate, respectful and factual.  NS posts were not factual but made to look as if they were and not respectful towards others on the list.  He was at least, articulate.  Ignorant, but articulate nevertheless.   I swear he's just intentionally being contrary at times, just for the sake of argument's sake.

If NS or anyone wishes to post mean-spirited, obnoxious and inaccurate information presented as truth.....they have every right to do so.   And those of us who disagree have the right to call him out on it.  It's no different than threads when posters have expressed views that were racist, homophobic, blatantly sexist or hateful towards others due to size.  They have the right to post it, no matter how remarkably objectionable, as long as it doesn't go against the TOS--I'm sure the mods would step in if there was something out of line.  So far, at least this thread has gone on with some decent dialogue without the need for the mods to step in and "clean up" the thread.

To me, something good will come out of this thread.  Perhaps it will shed light on the difficulties some TG people face...the violence, hatred and discrimination faced by many...and if nothing else, educate one or two people on what some TG folks have had to face in life. For me, reading some of NS's posts made me see him in a whole different light--not a favorable one--but I always appreciate when someone is right upfront about their bias-- at least now I know where he stands.  Not that I was interested in a friendship with him (I wasn't), but now I know for sure that I won't waste my time, nor will I hold much weight to his posts. (that hide function is really nice. I should probably use it more often)

edited for typos



NocturnalStalker -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 10:01:21 AM)

quote:

The difference: you posted something relevant, articulate, respectful and factual. NS posts were not factual but made to look as if they were and not respectful towards others on the list. He was at least, articulate. Ignorant, but articulate nevertheless. I swear he's just intentionally being contrary at times, just for the sake of argument's sake.


The difference is that you just do not like me.  Be upfront and say it.  If I argue, it is for "the sake of being contrary."  So what you just admitted was that any time I enter a discussion with my view that may not be popular opinion with those involved so far, it is simply, "NS being his usual, 'anti' self." 

Otherwise, you having no problem with what someone else saying what I have been saying and linking articles/research to is absolutely ridiculous.  I was raised being told that a good point is a good point, no matter the source. 



xssve -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 10:05:06 AM)

Good post PolyDommesGirl, NS, clearly, a recognition of TG is necessary simply due to "the way the world has 'worked' for so long", I myself am baffled by this, I can't say I've always been or am now entirely comfortable around TG's, but the bottom line is it isn't any particular inconvenience to me, other than I have to figure out how to act, but the whole traditional relationship between the sexes has altered to such a degree that I essentially have the same problem with women on a semi-regular basis, i.e., do I treat them like ladies, or men, or sluts or what? Depends a great deal on the individual, and there have been threads on this subject recently, i.e., is opening a door for a woman courtesy or condescension?

Anyway, it's actually easier with TG's, I'm not interested in perusing a sexual relationship with a TG, I'm pretty firmly into natural born women, and comfortable with that, so I'll treat you however you want me to as long as you aren't trying to dupe me which is a honesty, not a gender issue.

It's not my bag, but I can respect your choices, and don't feel like it's my job to enforce anybodies gender expectations, regardless of how passionate they are about it, flat out, it's none of my damn business, I got my own problems.

I'm pretty fucking kinky, have been as long as I can remember, and TG is just another kink to me, vanilla is just another kink for that matter ("oooh, look how normal I am" = other directed approval slut), and the one kink I don't tolerate is forcing your kinks nonconsensually on others, through threats, verbal abuse, or coercion, social or physical, it isn't justified, ever, period.





GreedyTop -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 10:13:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hausboy

Hi Cherylmazana

The difference:  you posted something relevant, articulate, respectful and factual.  NS posts were not factual but made to look as if they were and not respectful towards others on the list.  He was at least, articulate.  Ignorant, but articulate nevertheless.   I swear he's just intentionally being contrary at times, just for the sake of argument's sake.

If NS or anyone wishes to post mean-spirited, obnoxious and inaccurate information presented as truth.....they have every right to do so.   And those of us who disagree have the right to call him out on it.  It's no different than threads when posters have expressed views that were racist, homophobic, blatantly sexist or hateful towards others due to size or Gorean.  They have the right to post it, no matter how remarkably objectionable, as long as it doesn't go against the TOS--I'm sure the mods would step in if there was something out of line.  So far, at least this thread has gone on with some decent dialogue without the need for the mods to step in and "clean up" the thread.

To me, something good will come out of this thread.  Perhaps it will shed light on the difficulties some TG people face...the violence, hatred and discrimination faced by many...and if nothing else, educate one or two people on what some TG folks have had to face in life. For me, reading some of NS's posts made me see him in a whole different light--not a favorable one--but I always appreciate when someone is right upfront about their bias-- at least now I know where he stands.  Not that I was interested in a friendship with him (I wasn't), but now I know for sure that I won't waste my time, nor will I hold much weight to his posts. (that hide function is really nice. I should probably use it more often)

edited for typos





SixMore2Go -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 10:42:54 AM)

quote:

It's amazing how that little speech pattern of yours disappears when you're not trying to play to the peanut gallery.
Really, is that so? You find that amazing do you? Well then, I will take it that you're declaring yourself to be among the not to bright crowd as well then.



strawberryshake -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 10:47:04 AM)

,NS is getting the responses that he's getting because much earlier in the thread he admitted to being deliberately disrespectful to transgender people because he does not agree with their lifestyle. Not only that but he said that he will continue to be disrespectful to transgender people in the future.

On page #11 I asked NS, "I can understand if something is not your "cup of tea". But why must you say hurtful and potentially destructive things?"
Really if you have a problem with transgendered people, why not choose to be neutral rather than offensive by "calling it the way you see it"?"

NS's reply to meon page #13 was, "Because I've chosen to be offensive since it is wrong thinking.  There are many sexual abnormalities that are wrong and though you may have bought into being a mindless sheep that thinks they are defending the weak all you're doing is hurting them more by enabling them to justify their sketchy stories and actions.  Society should work to make the transsexual types be at peace with their original selves, not telling them that it is "okay" to go and change themselves overnight.  It's like saying, "You're right, you are a shitty guy.  Go grab some dice and roll a female instead." 

Because even if society does say to, "Do whatever you want" there's omission that once you do go through that you'll be ridiculed and looked at as a freak. 

And sorry but it doesn't add up that you're more inclined to kill yourself *before* the transformation as opposed to after it.  Especially if it is poorly done and makes you look terrible as most often do.  Logic tells me that they would be more susceptible to suicide when they realize that the average person won't tolerate them beyond casual friendship or civility.  Before the operation they're just guys or girls with psychological problems.  After the operation they're girls or guys with psychological problems and now widespread social issues."

@Cherylmazana- that's just one example of his destructive, inhumane attitude toward things he does mot grasp.



LillyBoPeep -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 10:48:19 AM)

I don't really understand your edit, Greedy -- are you saying that Goreans are hateful towards others, or that others are hateful towards Goreans?



GreedyTop -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 11:01:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

I don't really understand your edit, Greedy -- are you saying that Goreans are hateful towards others, or that others are hateful towards Goreans?

this

*gah* haz the tired but not sleepy thing going on (as well as other stuff).. I will try to clarify my thoughts later, when my thoughts are clearer (is that a word??LOL) to me



PolyDommesgirl -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 11:09:30 AM)

With regard to you saying, Now you saying that society should not make a big deal of gender...
(for ease of reading and flow,NocturnalStalker your comments will be in italics)

I am proposing our society consciously recognize the emphasis we place on gender. At this moment we are not doing so.

...it is a little hard simply because this is how the world has "worked" for so long.
If i could reword your statement, to say this, it is a little hard simply because this is how the "Westen" world has "worked" for so long. I would agree with your statement, as I said before, Gender and the perception of gender is the foundation of our consumerist society. There are and have been, other societies who are not are narrow minded.

While there can be strides taken to try and diminish the importance, there will be someone like me that questions, "If gender is not such a big deal, why should a transsexual-minded person care what they are in the end?

I expect when the day comes that we do not have a consumerist society or when we place less emphasis on who has a penis and who has a vagina, the transsexual person would not care what gender they are in the end. I suspect the transsexual person will acquire a new label and a new identity. In other cultures we are seen as councilors of a sort. We are seen as two spirited and facilitators of communication between men and women. I would love to see that happen again. As you know, our society believes you need to have a certificate to be a couples councilor .

In my opinion, what needs to be recognized, is that transgender people are required, perhaps even forced make a decision to gain some level of social acceptance in a Western/Consumerist society. Tragically, only some of us actually experience the post operation acceptance.

At five years old, I did not care what my appearance or body was shaped like. Society imposed those values and beliefs on me. If you have a penis, you behave like this. If you have a vagina, you behave like this. Really? Seriously? Well if you insist, please take the penis it is  not important enough to me to change my behavior and belief system.

If we want an inclusive society based on two genders and only TWO genders, is it not appropriate to help and encourage people to find their place in those two genders, even if means surgery.

A woman will get breast implants to look more feminine. A man will get hair implants to look more masculine. A woman will inject chemicals into her body to look more youthful, and men with take steroids to look more muscular. People will get laser eye surgery to see better. I just don't want a penis and testicals

We are all manipulating our bodies to find acceptance and companions.

If our society deems these is how our society needs to be structured, then our society needs to flexible and recognize some people need to be able to shuffle around in order to fit those molds.

If society keeps treating me like a woman, is it not better I am a woman. Is it not healthier for me to feel inner peace. When I or anyone has inner peace we productive members of our society.

Shouldn't they simply just be happy with what they are given?

I was not born a masochist. Why should I be happy with being societies punching bag. Why should I not be entitled to the benefits our society offers. Why should I be teased, assaulted, abused, murdered, or pushed to the point of suicide because of perceptions.

I believe when the day comes that we do not have a consumerist society or when we place less emphasis on who has a penis, and who has  a vagina, SRS will be a non issue. We are not their yet. And don't see it being their in the foreseeable future.

In a world that is focusing on the economy, oil, and wars, social acceptance of the biblically perverse, is a non issue.

Tragically this is how some of us forced to survive, to find acceptance, to find love to be a member of this society.



Ninebelowzero -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 11:11:20 AM)

If society keeps treating me like a woman, is it not better I am a woman. Is not healthier for me to feel inner peace. When I have inner peace I am a productive member of our society.


Yes as longh as you are happy with it.



SixMore2Go -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 11:12:09 AM)

quote:

Oh, forgive me. I thought we were having a disagreement/differing points of view. Which we were, but don't let me stop you.
No we weren't, well other than the fact that you have an inflated idea of your intelligence, with which I disagree, and the truth of my opinion is again made clear by your continued attempt to prove me wrong.

quote:

You see what you're unable to grasp is not that you're not liking my argument, you're simply not liking me.
Oh no boy, I have no trouble grasping that, that would explain why I haven't engaged your argument. It was your presentation alone that I commented on.

quote:

You're not seeing the primary purpose that a forum provides.  It allows for interaction and different views to be presented.  When these views conflict, we have a discussion or argument about them about our views.
Aye, and I presented me views a long while back, and there's naught that you can say that will alter those, and there's naught that I can say that will alter yours. As I said, I'm not here to try convince you or anybody of anything, I just think your not overly bright, and you have proven that to be the case over and over ever since I said it.

quote:

NocturnalStalker ate my lunch and I hate him for it thread.
Oh I don't hate you, why ever would I hate you? Whatever have you done to me? You're just one more of a rather large number of daft rabbits on this website.

quote:

As mentioned, when you made the claim of "not being bright" I naturally assumed you would attack the argument I was making in context of the thread. 
And your assumption was correct in as much as it was the way you were presenting your argument that gave me the impression that you were soft in the head. And, as I have said before, the fact that you continue to argue with me about it shows me several things.
First, that you truly are soft in the head.
Second, you will argue any damned thing just for the sake of looking good in your own eyes.
Third, that you really do not understand the English language, as you misconstrue and misunderstand most everything that is said to you.
And fourth, that you're a right egotistical bastard who really thinks he weighs more on others minds than any reasonable man would.

quote:

My suggestion for yourself and those with a similar mind set is to actually read, absorb, reflect what others say. 
Oh but I have, just because I happen to disagree with somebody does not mean I have not read, nor absorbed, nor reflected on what they say. Again, my impression of your lack of intelligence has naught to do with what you said, but with how you said it. You not being able to grasp this one simple distinction is yet further evidence that my earlier impression was correct.



NocturnalStalker -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 11:12:54 AM)

quote:

NS is getting the responses that he's getting because much earlier in the thread he admitted to being deliberately disrespectful to transgender people because he does not agree with their lifestyle. Not only that but he said that he will continue to be disrespectful to transgender people in the future.


I think I've gained 5 pounds with the amount of words some of you are putting in my mouth. 

Where did I actually state, "I will be disrespectful to a transsexual as I always have?"  Nowhere.  Let me guess you're going to say that I disrespect them by calling them their biological sex?  Well that is what they originally were and how many people see them as in our world.  What you seem to be failing to grasp is that not everybody that does not see things the way a transsexual does is someone that is hateful and will smash them into the concrete on sight.  Those I asked were normal, everyday people.  I may not agree with how a transsexual-minded person goes about their business but I'm not adverse to completely shutting my mind off to them and ignore their existence if one asked me a general question. 

As for the post you quoted, the first part is addressing that there should be work done to prevent the urgency of surgery from ever taking place.  To correct their flawed thinking (because if you're born one sex but think you're the other, that is incorrect.  You may not like the words I'm using but it is what it is) would be a greater cure than to think that we can just change what people believe and is not seen as correct. 

Now in ten years this could completely change.  Fifteen years ago people were spouting off anti-gay slurs like it was a competition while today you'll get looked at as a monster if you even say, "That's gay."  What I'm addressing is the here-and-now and it is no secret that society still views transsexuals as the black sheep (despite the PC agenda/acceptance).  So if in ten years we are still at this same point just as we've been for decades already, maybe it is time to stop wanting the majority to change for your benefit and instead find a way to help yourself and others like you change for them.





GreedyTop -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 11:14:42 AM)

~FR~

PDG.. great post :)



SixMore2Go -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 11:18:02 AM)

quote:

Otherwise, you having no problem with what someone else saying what I have been saying and linking articles/research to is absolutely ridiculous.
Or it might just be that you present your arguments in right stupid fashion, so nobody bothers to consider them.



TheFireWithinMe -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 11:18:39 AM)

From my understanding it's so much more than "thinking" they are the opposite gender to the one they were born as. Let me give you and example a TG friend of mine gave me:

Imagine you wake up in the morning with a woman's body but you still identify as a man. Would you simply say oh well I'm a woman now or would everything in you that says "man, I'm a man" cry out "wait a minute here, I'm not a woman I'm a man!"



Ishtarr -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 11:20:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

Universally speaking, we humans all breathe oxygen.  This is not wrong.



Correct

quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

Universally speaking, transgendered people are happier post-op.  This is wrong. 



Correct

Except, that's not what Steven said.
He said:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The few TGs I have known, universally say that they were miserable or suicidal prior, and much happier now. 



Or in other words: "All the TGs I've know (universally) say that they were miserable or suicidal prior, and much happier now. 

He defined a set. The set being "The few TGs I've know" and then made a comment that there was characteristic applying to all members of that set. The "universally" in this instance specifically applies only to the members of the pre-defined set, and is not a statement applicable to all TGs; just the ones that Steven has known.

To give an example:

The few people living in my household, universally say that they like eating pizza.

Set: "The few people living in my household"
Statement about the set: "they like eating pizza"
Quantifier to define which members of the set the statement is applicable to: "universally" (meaning "all" in this context)

The above statement says that ALL people in my household say they like eating pizza.
It doesn't make any claims whatsoever about humanity as a whole saying they like eating pizza.
There is no possible way to make an inference from that statement as to whether or not human being in general say they like eating pizza.

You're being confused because you're assuming that the word "universally" necessarily applies to everything when it doesn't. Universally is only applicable within the context of a specific set, and that set can be as narrow or as broadly defined as one wants.

BTW, the statement "Universally speaking, transgendered people are happier post-op." also defines a set. The set in this case being "transgender people". Without the defining of that set, your statement would equal "Universally speaking, people are happier post-op."
So if you insist that Steven's defining of a the set "all TGs I've know" isn't relevant to the quantifier "universally" then your defining of the set "transgendered people" isn't relevant to the quantifier "universally" either, which means that your above statement -by your own logic- means: "Universally speaking, people are happier post-op."



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