RE: The Transgender Thread (Full Version)

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Ninebelowzero -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 1:15:14 PM)

Naaa not Manning or Brand. Mebbeze Robert E Smith. & good luck with the rebuilding down there. I don't agree with your politics but kinda agree with the sentiment.

Doing something is always better than doing jack shit IMO.



crazyml -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 2:11:01 PM)

Hello there Mazana,

I hope you haven't really been "deeply disturbed by the thread because of people's responses to Nocturnal", not because I think that all of the responses to him have been fair or reasonable, but because I'd expect you to know the boards well enough to see that its to be expected!

The fact that his views are consistent with the results that you've had when asking the men you know at work doesn't validate them, nor can they reasonably be used to represent reality in "Most places". Indeed, one of the debates I've had with NS on this thread is his inability to distinguish a qualified statement from DarkSteven, from a general claim about the whole population. So if NS is consistent, I'd expect him to take issue with your inference from your relatively small sample that you must know the general truth.

Indeed, I don't think that the question you seem to have asked can be correlated with his views at all, since it seems to relate to how they'd react if they slept with a post-op T/S without having been told before hand that the person was a post-op T/S.

I'm pretty sure that when you refer to the "BMP" you mean the "BNP" (please correct me if I'm wrong here..). And you're right to point out they've had some successes lately and that racism, bigotry and homophobia are still very present in UK society. But I'm sure you're not arguing that those attitudes should be tolerated because they're held by a significant (but still a minority) percentage of the population?

I don't think that anyone would argue, for a second, that the LGBT community broadly, and the TG community in particular still face a great deal of hostility and ignorance. But again I can't imagine that you'd argue that this situation excuses it?

My other concerns with NS's comments on this thread center on a couple of the things he's said:

quote:

Because I've chosen to be offensive since it is wrong thinking.  There are many sexual abnormalities that are wrong and though you may have bought into being a mindless sheep that thinks they are defending the weak all you're doing is hurting them more by enabling them to justify their sketchy stories and actions.  Society should work to make the transsexual types be at peace with their original selves, not telling them that it is "okay" to go and change themselves overnight.  It's like saying, "You're right, you are a shitty guy.  Go grab some dice and roll a female instead." 


It doesn't matter how many people regard transgenderism (forgive me if that's made-up word, and if it is I hope you will get what I mean!) as a "sexual abnormality" (For the statisticians - remember I'm arguing from this context, and sure "statistically" transgenderism is outside the "norm" - but "abnormal" is used here in a very loaded way) or how many would seek to imply that people with transgenderism are "shitty", that is a statement that has to be challenged. Because to argue in this tone that trangenderism is an "abnormality" and "wrong" is a stupid, nasty argument. It's the same argument that was used 50 years ago to argue that homosexuality was "abnormal" and "wrong".


quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

I'd be civil to them, of course.  I'd also offend them because I'd call them by their biological sex.  That's the way I roll.



And this... well, again - It doesn't matter how many people would do it - anyone who persisted in calling a post-op TG, or even an in-transition TG by their biological sex is being a cunt.


So... I don't think there's any denial of the challenges that TG folk face, both pre and post transition - My objections to NS are largely to his positing transgenderism as "abnormal and wrong" (and the implication that "homosexuality" also falls into the same category), coupled with his tendency to misunderstand (either through error, or willfullness) what other people are saying.

Finally... an interesting stat, which should give you some hope...

According to the "Attitudes to Discrimination in Scotland : 2006" report (Commissioned by the Scottish Parliament).

Only 30% of people would have a negative attitude towards a Post-op TG teacher, while 50% would have a negative attitude towards a teacher over the age of 70, and 49% towards a teacher who had depression, and 49% towards a teacher who was a Gypsy/Traveller.

So there are other groups that fare a lot worse!



crazyml -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 2:14:16 PM)

I liked all of your post, but this particularly...


quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

I can only speak for myself, but when I become aware of something or learn something new, I try to change my beliefs or thinking to accommodate it and accept the fact that just maybe that reasoning on which I base my beliefs or thinking might be flawed. I'm no different from anyone else, I have my own biases, prejudices, I judge when maybe I shouldn't, I get things wrong, and while I accept that I may be aware of stuff in some areas I also accept that in others I remain blissfully unaware.


Surely this is all we can do? We've all picked up prejudices, and viewpoints that will sometimes be challenged - to me it's how we respond to those challenges that helps us to actually grow.



Ninebelowzero -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 2:20:18 PM)

Nice one.



SthrnCom4t -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 3:07:37 PM)

In the early pages I used the HIDE feature for both Awareness and NS, as I take exception to posters who claim to be the voice of the masses. Personal preferences, no problem....needing to be seen as bigger than you are...no thank you.

However, if you count the number of pages for a thread, the adversarial position the above mentioned created, has quite helped things along. For that, I thank you. The more people share about their own experiences, the better able the public will be in making an informed decision.



OttersSwim -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 3:33:43 PM)

In my view, Awareness and NS are not here for discussion.  They are here to incite conflict and this forum is nothing more than an interesting puzzle on how they can knock things about and get people riled by speaking hate.

This has proved the case in topic after topic.  Once you realize that they are not interested in actually sharing opinions, thoughts and experiences, and are there to simply say the most offensive and contrary thing in hopes that people will rise to the bait, it is simple enough to click the Hide button and move on, or simply see their game for what it is and it completely diffuses their ability to get you upset.

I certainly appreciate that this thread has had some interesting discussion in spite of them.



Ninebelowzero -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 3:38:03 PM)

Fair points well made. I just have an innate bull at a gate mentality. You are right it's been an eyeopener of a thread.



hausboy -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 4:08:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

quote:

The difference: you posted something relevant, articulate, respectful and factual. NS posts were not factual but made to look as if they were and not respectful towards others on the list. He was at least, articulate. Ignorant, but articulate nevertheless. I swear he's just intentionally being contrary at times, just for the sake of argument's sake.


The difference is that you just do not like me.  Be upfront and say it.  If I argue, it is for "the sake of being contrary."  So what you just admitted was that any time I enter a discussion with my view that may not be popular opinion with those involved so far, it is simply, "NS being his usual, 'anti' self." 

Otherwise, you having no problem with what someone else saying what I have been saying and linking articles/research to is absolutely ridiculous.  I was raised being told that a good point is a good point, no matter the source. 



I liked you a lot more before this thread. 





Ninebelowzero -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 4:34:05 PM)

There's a difference?



NocturnalStalker -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 4:37:56 PM)

quote:

In my view, Awareness and NS are not here for discussion.


Of course we are.  The problem is that a majority are not here for much of a discussion and would rather make blatant or subtle jabs.  I've lost count how many times I have had to repeat myself and continue having to to prevent myself from being viewed as some sort of soulless animal. 

Here is what the rationale is: there will be a popular opinion attacked and if it is made by a generally well-liked member or one not known to arouse trouble regularly it will be either vastly downplayed/ignored by others or it will be lightly discussed and the member that originally said it will suddenly have an epiphany and change the error of their ways.  Oh, but if you're on the "Most Wanted" list here?  You better be ready to be torn apart.  The problem with those people that the regulars here see as "troublesome" or "provoking" isn't that they're here to pour gasoline and light a match but that they know they are unable to be swayed and will defend their viewpoint without bothering to buy into the "lustrous" prospect that if you lay down and play dead, you may be favoured more. 

This topic was an excellent example.  To the outsider, if you see twelve vs. two, you will naturally assume the twelve have a great point and that the two are just being "trolls."  With a topic of this length, very little people will actually bother to read it the full way through and will instead see somebody calling another as outright wrong and some other nasty comment to their character and assume it to be true and likely join in with the mob mentality. 

The truth is when you're broadcasting that you've "hidden" us, you're just showing to the outside observer that may actually put the time in to read this topic, you better not present conflict of any sort, or if you do wish to gain that privilege, build your reputation up here first. 

Ultimately, this topic was placed on a public forum under "General BDSM Discussion."  It was not like I specifically signed up for a forum to begin firing away, but that it was a topic open to anybody.  I gave my opinion, it was attacked, I gave reasons why I held that opinion, I was attacked, I even gave various links to the majority of people that hold that same opinion and asked as a sensible and reasonable human-being what can be done to rid a transsexual of their social stigma, I was attacked again.  Now it is just becoming circular and with the exception of a few posts (which I do appreciate for attempting to bring in some discussion and questions to be asked) it is quickly deteriorating. 

With a mixture of hearing what you want to hear, making premade judgments, and thinking that numbers mean much when in an argument many here will sadly always be locked in their chauvinistic state of invincible ignorance. 





crazyml -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 4:45:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

quote:

In my view, Awareness and NS are not here for discussion.


Of course we are.  The problem is that a majority are not here for much of a discussion and would rather make blatant or subtle jabs.  I've lost count how many times I have had to repeat myself and continue having to to prevent myself from being viewed as some sort of soulless animal. 

Here is what the rationale is: there will be a popular opinion attacked and if it is made by a generally well-liked member or one not known to arouse trouble regularly it will be either vastly downplayed/ignored by others or it will be lightly discussed and the member that originally said it will suddenly have an epiphany and change the error of their ways.  Oh, but if you're on the "Most Wanted" list here?  You better be ready to be torn apart.  The problem with those people that the regulars here see as "troublesome" or "provoking" isn't that they're here to pour gasoline and light a match but that they know they are unable to be swayed and will defend their viewpoint without bothering to buy into the "lustrous" prospect that if you lay down and play dead, you may be favoured more. 

This topic was an excellent example.  To the outsider, if you see twelve vs. two, you will naturally assume the twelve have a great point and that the two are just being "trolls."  With a topic of this length, very little people will actually bother to read it the full way through and will instead see somebody calling another as outright wrong and some other nasty comment to their character and assume it to be true and likely join in with the mob mentality. 

The truth is when you're broadcasting that you've "hidden" us, you're just showing to the outside observer that may actually put the time in to read this topic, you better not present conflict of any sort, or if you do wish to gain that privilege, build your reputation up here first. 

Ultimately, this topic was placed on a public forum under "General BDSM Discussion."  It was not like I specifically signed up for a forum to begin firing away, but that it was a topic open to anybody.  I gave my opinion, it was attacked, I gave reasons why I held that opinion, I was attacked, I even gave various links to the majority of people that hold that same opinion and asked as a sensible and reasonable human-being what can be done to rid a transsexual of their social stigma, I was attacked again.  Now it is just becoming circular and with the exception of a few posts (which I do appreciate for attempting to bring in some discussion and questions to be asked) it is quickly deteriorating. 

With a mixture of hearing what you want to hear, making premade judgments, and thinking that numbers mean much when in an argument many here will sadly always be locked in their chauvinistic state of invincible ignorance. 





Hmm... and this is not a snarky question.... what was the point you were making?



hausboy -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 4:55:02 PM)

There are a lot of ways you could have voiced your views (as others have) that wouldn't have led to where it did.   There are plenty of people on CollarMe who hold completely different views from mine, but I still respect the manner in which they present their opinions.  You could have posted your viewpoints in a way that was far less confrontational towards others.  Instead, you opted to go for an approach that was blatantly offensive, and you seemed to delight in this....almost taunting...and now you're playing the victim--poor woe is you, everyone is being a mean bully and trying to stifle you.  Ye reap what ye sow.





HeatherMcLeather -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 5:02:38 PM)

quote:

and now you're playing the victim--poor woe is you, everyone is being a mean bully and trying to stifle you.
Did I call it, or did I call it? I give it at most three more posts before he reverts to form.



NocturnalStalker -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 5:05:01 PM)

quote:

Hmm... and this is not a snarky question.... what was the point you were making?


I originally said that I do not seek friendship or any relationship due to the social stigma a transsexual has and the inability to find any likemindedness not to mention I just don't agree with their decisions in life.  This was contested and I said that there are many out there that hold similar beliefs to me and some are even more extreme in their disagreement with a transsexual to the point of hate crime. 

Now true, I did state my points in a way that could be seen as confrontational but that was my argument which lead to some people personally attacking me. 

And when somebody else says much of what I have a couple pages back?  Some of you try to paint me the monster for doing as she did which was speak my mind and be brutally honest about my view.  With the numerous personal attacks made, it becomes less about the "confrontational" tone and more about, "It was NS that said it." 

Stay classy, CollarMe. 



HeatherMcLeather -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 5:08:34 PM)

Now, to return to the actual topic. One of the things that I noticed about our survey results that has given me pause to think is that while the numbers of men who view transsexuals as freaks and would not befriend them are close, there is a substantial difference in the women's responses. A full 6% of the respondents do not view transsexuals as freaks, yet would still not befriend them. Anybody have any ideas why that might be?



hausboy -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 5:14:46 PM)

Thank you, Heather....
...for something more interesting and relevant to the thread...

I really do think it goes back to the insecurity that a lot of men have.
My workplace has several openly gay men...and one openly transgender person (not me)...
the women have no problem at all going out to lunch and socializing with the gay men/TG person....and neither do I...we go out to lunch together all the time.

The straight guys in the office have asked me (more than once) "How can you go out with them like that? Aren't you worried someone will think you're gay?"   So I don't know, maybe it's that whole "guilt by association" thing.

edited to add:  For those who aren't familiar, "guilt by association" is an expression, meaning, if you hang out with (in this case) gay or TG people, everyone will simply assume you are too based on the company you keep.



HeatherMcLeather -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 5:27:54 PM)

It was the women's attitude I was talking about. 8% of the women thought TS people are freaks, but 14% wouldn't befriend them. The relevant numbers for the men are 14% and 15%, so not what I would consider a significant difference. I'm wondering if it isn't some sort of resentment of them because they are "fake" women, a sort of dislike of them as impostors competing for the same men.



Hillwilliam -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 5:34:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hausboy

The straight guys in the office have asked me (more than once) "How can you go out with them like that? Aren't you worried someone will think you're gay?"   So I don't know, maybe it's that whole "guilt by association" thing.


I heard the same thing my freshman year of college when I had an openly gay roommate. I'd be sitting there at a party with a lovely little green-eyed blonde on my lap (gf at the time) and people would actually ask me stupid questions like that.



Awareness -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 5:36:09 PM)

  Well you've done both and come out looking like a jellyfish, so I'd contend not.  I have no idea why you'd try and curry favour with anonymous internet posters, but you seem committed to this course of action, regardless of its futility.

Frankly, whenever I see someone join a group dogpiling on someone else, I know they're a weakling.  You claim you don't care about popularity, yet you expend effort in playing the quaint rustic then make an attack on someone who's already taking rounds from at least half a dozen other people.  Why?  You felt your opinion was so startling you just had to let NS know you didn't think highly of him?  Bollocks.  You joined the group, lad.  Adopted a bunch of opinions, picked up a rock and threw it, simply because everyone else was doing it.

Now, there's a certain sort of woman who'll coo over such behaviour - then again, there's a certain sort of woman who'll see you as a weak-minded piss-ant.  Keep that in mind, next time you get the urge to perform.



crazyml -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 5:49:55 PM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

quote:

Hmm... and this is not a snarky question.... what was the point you were making?


I originally said that I do not seek friendship or any relationship due to the social stigma a transsexual has and the inability to find any likemindedness not to mention I just don't agree with their decisions in life.  This was contested and I said that there are many out there that hold similar beliefs to me and some are even more extreme in their disagreement with a transsexual to the point of hate crime. 

Now true, I did state my points in a way that could be seen as confrontational but that was my argument which lead to some people personally attacking me. 

And when somebody else says much of what I have a couple pages back?  Some of you try to paint me the monster for doing as she did which was speak my mind and be brutally honest about my view.  With the numerous personal attacks made, it becomes less about the "confrontational" tone and more about, "It was NS that said it." 

Stay classy, CollarMe. 



I was semi with you until the "Stay classy" bit. You said a couple of really nasty things - you essentially said that TG is a mental illness, and you implied that homosexuality was too, and you casually said that you'd call a TG by their biological sex "because that's the way I roll".

You then picked a pretty fucking spurious fight with DS over his contention that every single TG he'd met was happier after transition.

So, it's a bit rich for you to attempt to claim the moral high ground.

It's even richer to try to validate your prejudice by claiming (even while your claim is accurate) that other people have the same obnoxious views.

As Mazana pointed out - plenty of people vote for the BNP... but that doesn't mean for a second that racism isn't nasty and wrong.

You're not qualified to state whether a majority of TG people are happier or not post transition and neither am I. DS is a fuck of a lot better qualified than either you or I, and the TG peeps that have contributed to the thread have shared real personal experiences so that kinda kicks your views, and mine, properly in the arse.

We all have prejudices. I'm very strongly prejudiced against racists and homophobes (and a bunch of other groups too - fox hunters are another group I'm prejudiced against), for example. And - actually, I shouldn't be so prejudiced. As with the South Africa example I used earlier - everyone comes to their prejudices as a result of their experiences, their understanding of the world. If I believe that homophobia is wrong, then I should be smart enough to know that just calling every homophobe or fox hunter I meet an ignorant cunt isn't necessarily going to win their hearts and minds.

The cartoon that was posted earlier in the thread made me smile - it's good to be reminded that people used to say shit like "abnormal" and "mentally ill" etc about Left-handed people (as a south paw myself, it's good to know that I've been oppressed!)....

One thing we do know, is that ignorance is one of the key factors in prejudice... so perhaps if you and I were to shut the fuck up and let the TG people tell their stories we'd both learn something - about the issues surrounding Transgenderism and maybe even ourselves?





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