RE: The Transgender Thread (Full Version)

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GreedyTop -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 11:22:27 AM)

I think a couple of Twighlight Zone (or maybe Outer Limits) episodes have attempted to address this, Fire..

but given the era in which those were originally made, not as realistically as should be expected from THIS (so-called *cough* enlightened age )




GreedyTop -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 11:28:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr


quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

Universally speaking, we humans all breathe oxygen.  This is not wrong.



Correct

quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

Universally speaking, transgendered people are happier post-op.  This is wrong. 



Correct

Except, that's not what Steven said.
He said:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The few TGs I have known, universally say that they were miserable or suicidal prior, and much happier now. 



Or in other words: "All the TGs I've know (universally) say that they were miserable or suicidal prior, and much happier now. 

He defined a set. The set being "The few TGs I've know" and then made a comment that there was characteristic applying to all members of that set. The "universally" in this instance specifically applies only to the members of the pre-defined set, and is not a statement applicable to all TGs; just the ones that Steven has known.

To give an example:

The few people living in my household, universally say that they like eating pizza.

Set: "The few people living in my household"
Statement about the set: "they like eating pizza"
Quantifier to define which members of the set the statement is applicable to: "universally" (meaning "all" in this context)

The above statement says that ALL people in my household say they like eating pizza.
It doesn't make any claims whatsoever about humanity as a whole saying they like eating pizza.
There is no possible way to make an inference from that statement as to whether or not human being in general say they like eating pizza.

You're being confused because you're assuming that the word "universally" necessarily applies to everything when it doesn't. Universally is only applicable within the context of a specific set, and that set can be as narrow or as broadly defined as one wants.

BTW, the statement "Universally speaking, transgendered people are happier post-op." also defines a set. The set in this case being "transgender people". Without the defining of that set, your statement would equal "Universally speaking, people are happier post-op."
So if you insist that Steven's defining of a the set "all TGs I've know" isn't relevant to the quantifier "universally" then your defining of the set "transgendered people" isn't relevant to the quantifier "universally" either, which means that your above statement -by your own logic- means: "Universally speaking, people are happier post-op."



Ishtarr.. nocky seems to have a total blind spot to these points, since at least one other poster (CrazyML) has put forth the same type of statement.

nocky is apparently incapable of recognizing this type of thinking.

ffs, I am an IDIOT when it comes to maths type of things (which is what I think this sprouts from?) and even *I* get it!!

(Grandpa, who art in heaven.. see? I did FINALLY learn something about logic and maths!!)


(p.s.-yes, I am probably being ditzy now.. lol)




TheFireWithinMe -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 11:30:05 AM)

Huh? I'm not talking about it happening I'm saying that this would be the same as the discord TG's have. It's an example - albeit maybe poorly explained - that was given to me by a TG friend of mine.




strawberryshake -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 11:34:31 AM)

@ NS- taking away someone's right to be identified as they wish to be identified by addressing them as you see them is disrespectful.

My drivers license, passport, social security info. and now my birth certificate say that i'm female.  If even the government recognizes me as female, then who are you to say otherwise?

Your exact words were "Because I've chosen to be offensive since it is wrong thinking."

Being intentionally offensive and being disrespectful are synonymous.

Again playing with words wont win you anything.




NocturnalStalker -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 11:38:45 AM)

quote:

I expect when the day comes that we do not have a consumerist society or when we place less emphasis on who has a penis and who has a vagina, the transsexual person would not care what gender they are in the end.


So are you saying that it is possible that a transsexual person can be born a man, identify as a woman, but if society did not place the same emphasis on who has what sexual parts, they could continue living on as a man?  See, you're a transsexual so you obviously know what your mind is telling you greater than I could and if it is possible for one to no longer care about their genetic sex and remain living comfortably in it, there should exclusively be ways to get a transsexual-minded person at that level of "peace" with themselves. 

quote:

If you have a penis, you behave like this. If you have a vagina, you behave like this. Really? Seriously? Well if you insist, please take the penis it is  not important enough to me to change my behavior and belief system.


What of the neologism terms such as "metrosexual?"  Wouldn't you see a man, still being a man, but spending his time doing what may have once been viewed as feminine activities as the expectations on what a particular sex must live upto as being deconstruction? 

This has just raised something else in my head, but there are many here that support transsexuals but if you go to a topic such as "Which celebrity would you dominate/submit to" a lot of females select men that are of the rugged/handsome variety often citing on how their masculine features and perceived attitude makes them stand out.  Do you think that maybe your supporters are also the enablers? 






Ishtarr -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 11:40:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

Ishtarr.. nocky seems to have a total blind spot to these points, since at least one other poster (CrazyML) has put forth the same type of statement.

nocky is apparently incapable of recognizing this type of thinking.

ffs, I am an IDIOT when it comes to maths type of things (which is what I think this sprouts from?) and even *I* get it!!

(Grandpa, who art in heaven.. see? I did FINALLY learn something about logic and maths!!)


(p.s.-yes, I am probably being ditzy now.. lol)


I know, but I've just been diagnosed with OCD (by my husband).
Apparently I've obsessive compulsive about having to correct all the mistakes I find on the internet... no wonder I never get any sleep. [:D]




TheFireWithinMe -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 11:42:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

Ishtarr.. nocky seems to have a total blind spot to these points, since at least one other poster (CrazyML) has put forth the same type of statement.

nocky is apparently incapable of recognizing this type of thinking.

ffs, I am an IDIOT when it comes to maths type of things (which is what I think this sprouts from?) and even *I* get it!!

(Grandpa, who art in heaven.. see? I did FINALLY learn something about logic and maths!!)


(p.s.-yes, I am probably being ditzy now.. lol)


I know, but I've just been diagnosed with OCD (by my husband).
Apparently I've obsessive compulsive about having to correct all the mistakes I find on the internet... no wonder I never get any sleep. [:D]



Well at least you won't run out of stuff to do for a while.




GreedyTop -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 11:45:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

Ishtarr.. nocky seems to have a total blind spot to these points, since at least one other poster (CrazyML) has put forth the same type of statement.

nocky is apparently incapable of recognizing this type of thinking.

ffs, I am an IDIOT when it comes to maths type of things (which is what I think this sprouts from?) and even *I* get it!!

(Grandpa, who art in heaven.. see? I did FINALLY learn something about logic and maths!!)


(p.s.-yes, I am probably being ditzy now.. lol)


I know, but I've just been diagnosed with OCD (by my husband).
Apparently I've obsessive compulsive about having to correct all the mistakes I find on the internet... no wonder I never get any sleep. [:D]




in this case, I would advise: wash your hands 5 times, check the door locks at least 7 times, then go to bed and obsess about it for two hours. After that? get some sleep ;)

(yes.. totally tongue in cheek for those without a sense of humour!! and I have no doubt that Ishtarr took it as it was meant,,,)

*gawd, I hate having to include disclaimers!!!*




PolyDommesgirl -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 11:46:47 AM)

GreedyTop, i humbly accept Your kind words. Thank You




Ninebelowzero -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 11:47:19 AM)

I must be blocked.




TheFireWithinMe -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 11:52:31 AM)

By who?




Ishtarr -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 11:53:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

I know, but I've just been diagnosed with OCD (by my husband).
Apparently I've obsessive compulsive about having to correct all the mistakes I find on the internet... no wonder I never get any sleep. [:D]



And obviously I just now noticed this type... oh sweet irony...




Ninebelowzero -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 11:54:20 AM)

Sorry, NS it was a typo to quote you.




TheFireWithinMe -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 11:57:56 AM)

Nonono I know that I was just asking who blocked you? [:)]




NocturnalStalker -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 12:22:06 PM)

quote:

Except, that's not what Steven said.


If you're going to quote and argue context, let's make sure you're not selective.

quote:

You're making up your facts.  The few TGs I have known, universally say that they were miserable or suicidal prior, and much happier now.  And feel free to explain to my sub that she will never form a lasting relationship, and she will laugh at you.  I know a few other TGs who have relationships, and some who do not.

I'm still not sure why you feel compelled to make up fantasies that you pass off as though they were painstakingly researched.


Right off the bat DS blatantly disregards what I said (despite a page or two later when asked for some evidence or data, it was given) as fabrication.  Then he goes on to express very matter-of-factly that those he knows are universally happy so that must mean that my argument (which is that transsexuals more than likely have it harder post-op) is now invalid.  The point of him throwing out "universally" was to imply a complete shut down of my argument due to his anecdotal evidence that a "few TGs" were now happier post-op than they've ever been.  Him saying "universally" was to tell me that because his few are happy, that must mean every transsexual he sees in public that did the operation is now happy as happy can be and since he is speaking for those "few TGs" they also think others like them are happy because they're happy. 

Now this is closed.  I don't know what I must do to convince you if you did not get it at this point and it is obvious there is a failure to understand here. 









crazyml -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 12:42:38 PM)

Hello PollyDommesgirl,

That was an awesome post.




PolyDommesgirl -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 12:51:40 PM)

@ NocturnalStalker

Although this it is my opinion, I believe its plausible for person born with a penis, to live with their penis, with a feminine mindset, conditional to that person feeling accepted in our society.

You stated, "See, you're a transsexual ..." If I can be nit-picky for a moment....I am a woman, with an 8" clit.
(this was Canadian dry humor, you may now laugh)

Many male and female Buddhist Monks live in an androgynous manner. If they can live at peace,  I am sure we all can. But again, its a societal thing. It is what is accepted as the societal norm.

It is my belief Transgender people are not the problem. It is the perception of our consumerist and biblicaly influenced society of how people with peni and vaginas should behave.

Our society is not ready for the Metrosexual. It was a fad a few years back, but i don't see much of it any more. I tried living as a Metrosexual. It did not work for me. I found it made it worse.  The partners I was trying to seek, did not find me appealing. Many women are hard wired to look for a partner who will protect them and their children. This may be a strong looking man (Arnold Swarcheneggerp type), or a financially successful man (Bill Gates type). Honestly I was neither, nor a man.

Also, my work environment was too conservative to understand a metrosexual. Again, the emphasis being a societal problem

Do you think that maybe your supporters are also the enablers?
Enablers and cheerleaders are the same thing. We need them in many different areas of our lives.
 
Enabling someone to do something is not always a bad thing. But yes I believe some supporters of some people are enablers.

Football players, baseball players, a person looking to loose weight, a person learning to ride a bike, a person going on their first date.

I have always called my current partner my greatest cheerleader.




Awareness -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 12:57:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SixMore2Go

quote:

It's amazing how that little speech pattern of yours disappears when you're not trying to play to the peanut gallery.
Really, is that so? You find that amazing do you? Well then, I will take it that you're declaring yourself to be among the not to bright crowd as well then.

  No, I'm in the crowd that thinks your dog and pony show is a quaint little form of currying favour.  Much like your attack on NS was done purely to make yourself look like a good fella.  Basically you have no spine.  NS has the benefit that he's not interested in playing popularity games.  You seem to lack that level of self-respect.




SixMore2Go -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 1:06:18 PM)

Ah, now so am I to take it that you're of the opinion that the only way a man can have self respect and a spine is if he behaves like an arse and a twit on the Internet?

I think that your problem here is one of assuming that the opinion of the people here means aught to me. I don't know nor do I care who is popular on these boards, and since none of the posters on here are, to me knowledge, from Sligo or the surroundings, then I fails to see how being popular with them could possibly be of any real importance to me.

There is one possibility you have overlooked, that I did what I did for precisely the reasons I stated that I did. While you may go through life acting always with ulterior motives, I do not, I am simply neither devious nor dishonest enough to do such a thing.




stellauk -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/19/2011 1:08:48 PM)

Oh man, 19 pages now?

I've just come back from canvassing.. I'm a member of the local Labour Party and part of the campaign team for the forthcoming elections for Mayor of London.

I'm going out and meeting different people face to face to try and get them to vote and/or sign up. Some of this takes me into the estates of South London, some of them - for example the Winstanley Estate in Clapham Junction, are part of the network of 'ghetto' estates in South London. Therefore I'm most likely dealing with hoodies and chavs on their doorstep.

Yes there are a few issues, as I could be taken as the lovechild of Bernard Manning and Jo Brand, but generally it seems they 'get it' much easier and quicker than a few people on this thread.

It's kind of related to my work, as I'm self-employed working to redevelop cultural community initiatives to rebuild communities affected by the recent Clapham Junction riots.

You see, this isn't about society. It's about individual people. Using society to back up what you think is just an excuse, nothing more. Society is no more than a concept, it's just people, and people is just a collective term for individual persons. It's individual people who make up society. Society doesn't share your reality, in fact nobody else does.

I'm okay with the fact that most people wouldn't want to sleep with me or have a relationship with me, because the feeling is mutual.

I'm here in this community not because I'm transgendered, but because I'm kinky. Being TG isn't a kink, it's not a mental illness, it's just part of who you are as a person - nothing more. I come from a poor background, one of social stigma and deprivation, I'm one of the few who got out and made something of my life, I'm artistic, creative, I don't fit in and the reason is not necessarily because I'm transgendered.

You can be forgiven for thinking that it is about me being TG, because I sometimes think it's for the same reason when it hasn't got anything to do with it.

My entire strategy here is 'this is me, my life, my experience, these are the cards I've been dealt with in life, this is how I'm playing them.' I'm not prepared fall back on 'society' and use it as an excuse to back up my excuses for not dealing or owning my issues, and equally using 'society' or 'other people' to justify what you personally think or feel on this issue doesn't work either.

Last July I came within a couple of votes of being elected Equalities Officer for the Executive of the local Labour Party. Those votes came from party members, most of who don't know me, hence you can take them as a representative proportion of 'society'. As a minority myself I had to campaign - and it was a campaign, complete with meetings, speeches and debates - from a position of having overcome the struggle. I based my campaign on the need for recognition of discrimination due to social class and background and how spending cuts appear to have been targetted towards women.

This is not to say that I haven't struggled, I have, and I have in the same way as others who don't quite fit in with what many people see as female or indeed feminine, or for that matter, passable. I've gone through the isolation, the social stigma and together with my problems with transitioning I've also dealt with the issues of being street homeless and destitute.

Many of these problems weren't caused by other people, but by me, either by misunderstanding something, not being in the right situation, not making the right preparations, or simply making mistakes. I'm probably quite an expert on 'How Not To Go About Gender Reassignment'. I still have issues, not so much with dealing with people but minor insignificant stuff, like eyebrows - and I have these issues simply because I'm not a naturally born female.

But a lot of issues have cleared up, simply because I have the acceptance I needed and while from the perspective of other people it seems I've moved into an area where I'm not accepted by most people and more restricted and isolated, when actually the reverse is true and my journey has been one of liberation and learning. I don't have this preoccupation of being seen as male when I have a female brain, now i can multitask, focus on emotions and communication and relate to the world and other people as I am inside.

This isn't just my issue, but one which affects most people, because few of us are really aware of just how much gender can vary from the binary and it comes because of the way we are all conditioned. When I point out to others issues of gender I'm not trying to tell them that they are wrong, that they are dysfunctional, mentally ill or stupid, but merely giving them an opportunity to understand what lies behind the way they're thinking or feeling.

I can only speak for myself, but when I become aware of something or learn something new, I try to change my beliefs or thinking to accommodate it and accept the fact that just maybe that reasoning on which I base my beliefs or thinking might be flawed. I'm no different from anyone else, I have my own biases, prejudices, I judge when maybe I shouldn't, I get things wrong, and while I accept that I may be aware of stuff in some areas I also accept that in others I remain blissfully unaware.




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