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RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 8:05:09 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl


Ok, I think we all get the gist that a celebrity might cause other people to be a bit twattish.......... but who is interested in some run of the mill girl feeding her baby?

No-one has yet answered this...... was she breaking a law? Was she doing something wrong, legally? Or is it just a matter of *feeling* it's not the right thing to do?

Surely in court of all places, that matters?

agirl



Ok, I realize there is obvious cultural difference, which honestly is surprising. Where until quite recently (historically), the "decorum" of a court room included putting on silly white wigs?

Surely in a court, there are some things one just shouldn't do. Not because it is "illegal" but because it is inappropriate for that particular environment.

I get it, women breast feed everywhere in the UK with complete disregard for their surroundings and everyone must accept it or keep quiet. Not here.

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RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 8:06:24 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
And how many judges can you think of that will and HAVE commented on the behavior of people in the forum?

I have most certainly judged your behavior: it lacks nobility.

Now on to more serious business: There is this female judge with a suckeling (sic!) child. As any caring mother does, she brings the crumb to her work to keep an eye on it. Is there any objection to her holding the crumb in her arms while judging a case?

How about breast-feeding it while she listens to the testimony of the alleged murderer?

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RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 8:08:29 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

 
quote:

So regardless of whether or not breastfeeding in public is "legal," are there times it is simply inappropriate to do so? Is it appropriate during church services? How about in the middle of a wedding ceremony?


Going by the above in the OP, I don't think the point was to discuss the legalities, but to get different folks feelings on it.

To me, it is inappropriate to breastfeed in a courtroom.  To others, it obviously is not.

I breastfed in places that I am sure would offend someone, but, the point, to me anyhow, is that the judge has the right to ask you to leave his courtroom, be it for breastfeeding or picking your nose.  Have a coughing fit, sigh loudly several times, get caught eating a bag of chips because you have been sitting in a trial and a nervous wreck and you are trying to shut up the growling sounds your stomach is making.  Wtfe, it is his or her courtroom.

Could it have been handled differently?  Couldn't everything be handled differently, looking back?



As a diabetic, I have had to get the bailiff's attention to leave the courtroom so I could eat something. Now I don't necessarily announce what the reason is, but I let them know I need to step out and if in the (quite unlikely) event my case was called while I was out of the room, I was just outside the room. It has NEVER been a problem, nor has it been all that difficult to get the bailiff's attention for a moment to let them know.

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RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 8:15:18 PM   
xxblushesxx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AneNoz

quote:

There were ways to mitigate it.
this may or may not be as it is, this we do not know. But of more import, there was no need for mitigation. Breastfeeding one's child is an act of devotion, it is an act of obeisance, and act of worship. It is a holy thing, a thing sacred. It is an act of unification, a communion of our souls with one another and with the Gods. All suckled ere ever they did walk, even the Gods.

Be at peace
Aneka



It is a beautiful thing, I agree, as is love-making. Neither of which are appropriate in a courtroom.

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RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 8:16:18 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

Possibly :)

I'm responding to the points, not to the *people*.

I do realise that the culture I live with isn't universal, but in this respect it is one that I happen to think is sensible and beneficial.

There is far too much unpleasantness and ugliness in the world to find fault with this kind of thing.

I ask *Why, though?* but it rarely brings any response other than * it's not the place* or* I don't like it*. This, to my mind, brings it down to personal prejudice and that's quite easy for me to dismiss.

agirl

agirl



Again, if some woman showed up in a cocktail dress and was told to leave, would the answer "because it is not the place" make you ask why?

Because the issue here is not the legality of what she did, and only the dissenters keep asking or point out any legalness of her behavior. It is because there are times and places where certain things should not be done. Here in the UNITED STATES, there are still some judges who don't aspire to be Judge Joe Brown and instead prefer to maintain control of their court room and expect those who are in attendence, for any reason, to behave in a particular manner.

Yes, people can decide to piss of a judge and do whatever they damn please. There are lawyers who can do that as well. But a smart lawyer isn't going to take a position on something that will likely result in their relationship with the court being compromised, since that can adversely effect other cases they appear on.

Is court all a big game of who has the bigger dick? More often than not, but the bottom line is that also more often than not, it is unwise to argue your dick is bigger than the judge's.



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RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 8:21:07 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

It's not the breast feeding itself (necessarily although some men *are* more like boys, so it could be that also) but the getting ready to breastfeed and the in between things you have to do which is distracting. It's a lot of moving around, shifting things and getting things just so. Not to mention the burping, cleaning, spitting up, etc.


Not to mention the way they tend to fill a diaper up with poop a few minutes after eating. It's usually pretty loud too.


Ah, the comedy brigade has arrived to lighten up the mood. Thank goodness. (seriously).

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RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 8:23:42 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheFireWithinMe


quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

It's not the breast feeding itself (necessarily although some men *are* more like boys, so it could be that also) but the getting ready to breastfeed and the in between things you have to do which is distracting. It's a lot of moving around, shifting things and getting things just so. Not to mention the burping, cleaning, spitting up, etc.


Given that the first the judge knew about it was when the bailiff brought it to his attention, how disruptive could it have been?

Oh and you never did answer my question about how it is that apparently a woman can't breastfeed and pay full attention to other things.



Well, I'm not going to say that plenty of women can pay attention, considering when the bailiff approached the woman she had to ask if she had been called, that pretty much says that she COULDN'T do both at the same time. Then again, she is from Alabama, appearing in Michigan, so they probably moved too fast for her.

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RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 8:27:18 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

Late to the conversation...
I absolutely loved breastfeeding my daughters, but I was never comfortable breastfeeding in public.
I did it because I had to. We were out and they were hungry.
I was always discreet unlike my ex sister in law who used to flop a big tit out wherever she was.
Anywho...I would have asked if I could leave the room to feed.
But...the judge really had no right to say anything. Breastfeeding in public is legal.
The legality of it has nothing at all to do with whether she should have chosen to leave the room or not.




And that's really all it boils down to.

People will do what they are comfortable with. If you're not happy to feed in a public place then you will not do it.

I don't know anyone that *flopped a big tit out*,.....lol.... but plenty that had no problem discreetly feeding their baby anywhere.

agirl



You know, I have also known several women who breast fed in public, and no one would ever know. No problem. Sadly, quite a few women have problems or perhaps don't care if they flop it out and get situated and THEN cover up once everything is going smoothly.

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RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 8:29:17 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AneNoz

quote:

Of course, this statement would be why you and your gang tend to get laughed at by real people with actual knowledge.
Here I must disagree. These girls I find most intelligent and earnest, and their youthful enthusiasm and certainties to me are a source of pleasure when read. As for laughter of derision, it is most often upon yourself, and the others of the circle that without variation gather as vultures around the words of these four to bicker and complain like jealous grandmothers, that it falls.


That would be a misperception, but you are entitled to it.

quote:


As an exemplar, your contention that nursing one's child ever could be inappropriate has brought gales of such laughter. It is in the nature of the world that a woman should nurse her child, to find offence in such is most foolish. Furthermore, to attempt to thwart such a thing is greatly foolish for it is blasphemy to do so. Did not My Goddess herself nurse the divine Horus at her breast? Did not the daughter of Joachim also so nurse your Christ?

Be at peace
Aneka


Did they do so in a courtroom?



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RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 8:37:15 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Duskypearls

Agirl,

Before anyone wants to use me for target practice, know that I am in favor of mothers nursing anywhere, anytime, but not everybody agrees with me. I appreciate and honor the strong feelings it provokes in its proponents, yet I understand and allow for the effects it has on others. Not for nothing, but if I was on trial for something, I don't think I'd appreciate a nursing mom stealing attention from my jurors or defense lawyers! I'd want them on the mark, with all their attention on me.


Because while no one else "said" anything, it doesn't mean others did not notice or were distracted. They, of course, had the sensibility and common sense that it was not their job to say anything.

quote:



And to those who say breast-feeding takes precedence over EVERYTHING in this case, I call baloney. Only if the baby is starving to death, which it obviously was not. Raising breast-feeding to the level of being an untouchable sacrosanct is a dangerous thing, as it puts the preferences and pleasures of one person/act against the comfort and sensitivities of many others, which in my opinion is a selfish act. In a civilized society, we are responsible not only for our desires, but how they affect others. That's a sign of maturity.

For those claiming it's natural and we should all be comfortable with it, how about we all be allowed to masturbate while naked in court, as both are natural and sacred states and acts, as well? Discretion and decorum, and a sensitivity to others should not need be mandated. Common sense should rule. Many people are distracted by a nursing mother, and may find it hard to take their attention off her. Nursing is both nourishing AND sexual, as many women are honest enough to admit and understand. It would not be unusual for men and women to be distracted and sexually stimulated by such an act, which would obviously derail their attention from where it needs to be in the court room. Just because the woman nursing is publicly comfortable with it, it doesn't mean all others present are.


Very well said, Dusky. All I can add is neither does the nursing mother have the right to force them all to be comfortable with it.

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RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 8:41:20 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

So, would it be inappropriate to feed a hungry baby a bottle while in a courtroom? Because you still have to burp them, clean them, and they fill a diaper with something vile, too, needing changed. So, if that happens, do you change the baby in the courtroom, or leave? So, should babies be allowed in a courtroom at all???

I found with my kids that while they were breastfed, their poo was very mild, almost sweet-smelling. They didn't get stinky until they went on solid food.


Yes, it could still be considered inappropriate. The child being in the court room at all could and is often deemed inappropriate, and it is often asked that they be taken out of the court room. Which would mean that in this case, the judge exercised understanding of baby sitter issued, but felt no need to have that be pushed further.

A baby with an ear infection is fussy, every parent knows that, hell it was the ONLY time my son got fussy, during the ONE ear infection he had brought on by his molars coming in. The only thing that consoled him was not sucking on a bottle, but having a bumble ball next to him vibrating away.

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RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 8:43:51 PM   
Duskypearls


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AneNoz

Also for me this is the question. My belief is that the cause is the effort in the past to promote bottle feeding in the Americas. A portion of that campaign effort was to stigmatize breastfeeding as a thing dirty, a thing done by the backward and uncouth. This campaign had small impact in Europe, and thus there is no such stigma with the activity. I have memories like unto crystal of women nursing not in church alone, but while receiving the Eucharist itself as well.

Be at peace
Aneka



You make an excellent point, with which I cannot disagree. It would seem there is much influence and coersion upon this society (and women in particular), to become both disconnected from, and turned against, the most natural, womanly, motherly experiences. Demonizing midwifery and natural childbirth, discouraging breastfeeding or promoting bottle feeding, encouraging mothers to pursue careers at the expense of their children/families, encouraging children be quickly shunted into the hands of strangers in daycare, forced/compulsary public education, etc.

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RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 8:46:50 PM   
Duskypearls


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: Duskypearls

Agirl,

Before anyone wants to use me for target practice, know that I am in favor of mothers nursing anywhere, anytime, but not everybody agrees with me. I appreciate and honor the strong feelings it provokes in its proponents, yet I understand and allow for the effects it has on others. Not for nothing, but if I was on trial for something, I don't think I'd appreciate a nursing mom stealing attention from my jurors or defense lawyers! I'd want them on the mark, with all their attention on me.


Because while no one else "said" anything, it doesn't mean others did not notice or were distracted. They, of course, had the sensibility and common sense that it was not their job to say anything.

quote:



And to those who say breast-feeding takes precedence over EVERYTHING in this case, I call baloney. Only if the baby is starving to death, which it obviously was not. Raising breast-feeding to the level of being an untouchable sacrosanct is a dangerous thing, as it puts the preferences and pleasures of one person/act against the comfort and sensitivities of many others, which in my opinion is a selfish act. In a civilized society, we are responsible not only for our desires, but how they affect others. That's a sign of maturity.

For those claiming it's natural and we should all be comfortable with it, how about we all be allowed to masturbate while naked in court, as both are natural and sacred states and acts, as well? Discretion and decorum, and a sensitivity to others should not need be mandated. Common sense should rule. Many people are distracted by a nursing mother, and may find it hard to take their attention off her. Nursing is both nourishing AND sexual, as many women are honest enough to admit and understand. It would not be unusual for men and women to be distracted and sexually stimulated by such an act, which would obviously derail their attention from where it needs to be in the court room. Just because the woman nursing is publicly comfortable with it, it doesn't mean all others present are.


Very well said, Dusky. All I can add is neither does the nursing mother have the right to force them all to be comfortable with it.


EXACTAMENTE!

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RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 9:03:36 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


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quote:

The above quote shows your original statement.
No dispute.

quote:

Those who agree with me are sensible
No, that is not what I said at all, not even close. Let's look at what I actually said, OK.
quote:

Those supporting a mother's right to breastfeed undisturbed have made sensible, reasoned posts.
Clearly I didn't say anything at all about the people, only the posts they have made in this thread.
quote:

those that do not are insulting.
Again no, not even close. Here is what I did say:
quote:

Those who oppose, on the other hand have made ridiculous, insulting, impassioned and to be honest, occasionally asinine (Hi VP) posts.
Again, not a thing about the people, only the posts they have made on this thread.
quote:

If you are not insulted, then, pray tell who were you referring to.
What are you talking about? In my original post I made a comment regarding the nature of the posts on each side of the debate, and then followed it with something basically agreeing with IASS. There is nothing in there at all about being insulted by anything.
quote:

The "ridiculous" things you quoted were not ridiculous to me.
Fair enough, this would be one of those differences of opinion situations I guess eh?

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RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 9:13:10 PM   
Duskypearls


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Status: offline 		Obviously, this is a very hot button topic amongst women in particular, which produces many, deep and polarized feelings. I don't believe it is the intent of anyone here to demonize breastfeeding or the breast, but to suggest that making it situation specific in such a case as this, might be appropriate.

For those wailing and flailing against the supposedly backward mindset of those who still prefer discretion reigns supreme, consider the following. While you feel very strongly about your opinion (and rightfully so), and are very much against those who disagree with you, you will NEVER turn their opinion by trying to make them wrong. In fact, the quickest way to make an enemy is to tell someone they're wrong. When you tell someone they're wrong, they automatically, unconsciously go into a defense mode, cannot hear or receive you or what you say, and dig their heels in deeper in supporting and protecting their own beliefs.

If you ever want a chance at changing another's opinion (which it sounds like you do), you must release the compulsive desire to make yourself right, and all others wrong. Consider things from both sides, and honor your opponent, or whomever it is with whom you disagree. Only when you make it safe for others to be right about their own opinion, will it allow their heart, mind and soul to feel safe enough to open to you and your opposing opinion, and then with kindness, sensitivity, compassion, knowledge and wisdom, you might you succeed. No one desires or deserves weaponized attacks of name calling, demonizing, minimizing or insults, which only serve to divide and separate. Try playing The Devils Advocate, every now and then, and see how it is for others, and why. Make friends, not foes!

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RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 9:30:13 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


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Status: offline 		As to my graduating high school, well I will shortly, a year later than normal, something I am quite proud of given that I dropped out of high school in grade 10 because I ran away from home because I was being sexually abused by my uncle. A situation in which my parents were complicit. As soon as I found a settled place to live, I re-enrolled and I will be graduating in the spring, and attending university in the fall. <I've already been accepted at 3>

The fact that you feel throwing this in my face will in some way insult me or diminish me in the eyes of anybody shows just how little you understand me, or human nature. Repeatedly reminding everybody that I have overcome a bad situation with a minimum of disruption to my education is more of a compliment than anything else. And since I will be covering the material from grades 10, 11, & 12 in the span of a single year to the satisfaction of at least three major universities, you are in fact publicly affirming that I am actually very intelligent.

I'm sure that this wasn't your intention, but that's OK by me, I'll accept your inadvertant praise with good grace.

Thank you LafayetteLady, that was kind of you to repeatedly say publicly that I was very intelligent like that.

< Message edited by HeatherMcLeather -- 11/15/2011 9:33:47 PM >

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RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 9:39:28 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

someone has a mighty big stick up their arse when so many laws cover breastfeeding women in public and private places, INCLUDING ALABAMA.
Does it rule out a court anywhere? traffic, family, criminal or civil??
someone show me a cite please?



How about you looking to see where the appearance was in ALABAMA. Your inability to comprehend would make showing you any cite irrelevant, as you can't comprehend a two minute video, it is unlikely you can fully comprehend legal citations or their ramifications.

and it went SNAP... I was asking for a cite or a link to read up on it ... specifically because I have more important things to do than to read something from you that is going to be like reading mental ex lax... your point on this is obvious. I wont change your mind and you wont change mine. Luckily I live in a place where it is a legal right. Im looking for info because I do like to be more informed.... not just to argue, sheesh
your attempt to belittle me is quite hilarious. back to you....EOCF


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(in reply to LafayetteLady)
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RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 9:39:49 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AneNoz

quote:

Wtfe, it is his or her courtroom.
This is an error. In America it is the courtroom of the people, whose servant the judge is.

Oh dear, it would appear to be that I neglected to add my salutation.

Be at peace
Aneka



I'm sure you will get a good response from the judge when you tell him that. Learn a little facts about the judicial system before making assumptions on how you think it should be.

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RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 9:41:53 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes



Actually, I agree, and if I had had to make any court appearances when I had babies, I think I would have found a babysitter. But, it's a different world today, young parents seem to be more willing to take the kids with them everywhere. Maybe the mom in question couldn't find a babysitter?


That is the claim. But there has been no explanation why she didn't feel the need to step out, other than the every popular, "I'm a nursing mother which absolves me of all rules, respect and decorum."

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RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 9:43:29 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


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Heather's choice for the
Sunny's Quote of the Day
goes to
AneNoz

for this eloquent declaration on the relationship between the law and the people:

The law is as a slave to the people, it is not the master to be served. The court is not as a temple for the recitation of truths, it is as a kitchen around which table the family gathers to correct its ills. It is a place for truth and justice, not a place of trickery and stratagem targeted upon manipulations. It is a place of challenge and passions, not a place for obeisance and surrender. It is the place of the rebel, and not so the conformist.

Always must those who serve the law recall that the law is itself but a servant. It is for the court and the judge to be displaying respect for the people, for it is the people who rule, it is they who are as the master.

(in reply to AneNoz)
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