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RE: Where do you stand on the political compass - 12/6/2011 3:31:47 PM   
Soyokaze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx



That would have taken more than "minimal" government intrusion.



That depends on how you define minimal and what it's applying to. Do you think everyone trying to drive down dirt roads is acceptable welfare of the people? If so than you could say it's more than minimal to have roads. If not you need to figure out what amount of roads are needed. On the other end would it be giving a company too much power to give them a natural monopoly on all roads in the US? The solution to curbing their power might be to make roads public property, or it might be to levy restrictions on their ability to profit and their need to provide coverage. I didn't mean to say it was a simply solution to reach utopia.

< Message edited by Soyokaze -- 12/6/2011 3:32:23 PM >

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RE: Where do you stand on the political compass - 12/6/2011 3:41:09 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Soyokaze

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx



That would have taken more than "minimal" government intrusion.



That depends on how you define minimal and what it's applying to. Do you think everyone trying to drive down dirt roads is acceptable welfare of the people? If so than you could say it's more than minimal to have roads. If not you need to figure out what amount of roads are needed. On the other end would it be giving a company too much power to give them a natural monopoly on all roads in the US? The solution to curbing their power might be to make roads public property,

Most are

or it might be to levy restrictions on their ability to profit and their need to provide coverage. I didn't mean to say it was a simply solution to reach utopia.


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RE: Where do you stand on the political compass - 12/6/2011 3:51:24 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Yes me...now you tell me how a civilization can exist without the trading of goods and services.

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RE: Where do you stand on the political compass - 12/6/2011 4:07:18 PM   
Soyokaze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Most are



If you couldn't understand that it was hypothetical then I don't know what I could talk to you about.

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RE: Where do you stand on the political compass - 12/6/2011 4:11:40 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Yes me...now you tell me how a civilization can exist without the trading of goods and services.



Thats easy. Everybody grows their own food, builds their own shelter including plumbing and wiring, everybody makes their own clothes, builds their own TV sets and computers, builds roads to the extent they need them. Everything else is donated by people who are so good at all of the above that they have the free time to provide health services, entertainment, etc.

Actually the follow up question is how you get it all done even with trading of goods and services with a) no form of exchange such as money and b) without a profit motive. Answer: Not very damn efficiently.

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RE: Where do you stand on the political compass - 12/6/2011 5:51:16 PM   
stellauk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

So, here's a question. Are certain people deluding themselves or is the test flawed. Id love to see the answers that could possibly arrive at lower left hand corner. You can't be a free spender and libertarian at the same time. By definition social spending reduces freedom. (Yes, even for those who benefit from the social spending, as evidenced by the lack of progress made by the serial welfare families).


I'm going to go with your logic here being flawed.

Not sure where you get the idea that left wing means free spending, which is actually quite far from the reality.

By what definition does 'social spending' reduce freedom? Freedom as in what? Civil liberty? Economic freedom?

You do realize, do you not, that all money is debt and that it also doesn't just represent a numerical or fixed monetary value but it also represents opportunity?

But then again I'm not really sure what your point is here, I'm guessing that you're somehow trying to argue by definition.

Unless you can provide that definition so that I can see the logic behind your reasoning all I see here is a bunch of illogical statements based on either assumptions or picked wildly out of thin air.


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RE: Where do you stand on the political compass - 12/6/2011 6:13:40 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

So, here's a question. Are certain people deluding themselves or is the test flawed. Id love to see the answers that could possibly arrive at lower left hand corner. You can't be a free spender and libertarian at the same time. By definition social spending reduces freedom. (Yes, even for those who benefit from the social spending, as evidenced by the lack of progress made by the serial welfare families).


I'm going to go with your logic here being flawed.

Not sure where you get the idea that left wing means free spending, which is actually quite far from the reality.

By what definition does 'social spending' reduce freedom? Freedom as in what? Civil liberty? Economic freedom?

You do realize, do you not, that all money is debt and that it also doesn't just represent a numerical or fixed monetary value but it also represents opportunity?

But then again I'm not really sure what your point is here, I'm guessing that you're somehow trying to argue by definition.

Unless you can provide that definition so that I can see the logic behind your reasoning all I see here is a bunch of illogical statements based on either assumptions or picked wildly out of thin air.



1. The horizontal scale is fiscal policy. Left on that scale means government spending. That is the truth, and Europe is the prime example.
2. Social spending takes from those who earn without their specific consent. A direct reduction in freedom. All freedom is equivalent whether its civil or economic because all facets of freedom affect every other one.
3. LMAO. Money is not debt. Its a medium of exchange that represents an asset that can be used to acquire something else. Ridiculous statement.

Its your facts that fail.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 12/6/2011 6:14:36 PM >

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RE: Where do you stand on the political compass - 12/6/2011 7:17:21 PM   
stellauk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

1. The horizontal scale is fiscal policy. Left on that scale means government spending. That is the truth, and Europe is the prime example.



Okay, so you're telling me that only those on the political left when in government spend money?

The political right doesn't spend money? What do they do? Give it away? Take it away? Wave magic wands?

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

2. Social spending takes from those who earn without their specific consent. A direct reduction in freedom. All freedom is equivalent whether its civil or economic because all facets of freedom affect every other one.



That's complete and utter bull not to mention completely unbalanced.

Your freedom when it comes to the government is expressed not through the taxes you pay but through the ballot box. It's a system known as democracy. You might have heard of it somewhere.

You also have a highly original concept of ownership.

I walk into a store, say Walmart. I fill my cart with groceries and go to the checkout. Say for argument's sake the total comes to $100. I hand over $100.

Now after I have handed over that $100 who owns that money - me or Walmart?

You pay tax out of your income to the Government - who owns the money? I say the Government, but you appear to disagree with this concept.

So you use a toilet? Make use of a road by any chance? See a doctor? More examples include hospitals, schools, the military, the police, services and stuff you take for granted. These all cost money.

You know I'd like to see you pay for the upkeep of an aircraft carrier out of your taxes or even your income. Do you know how much one tank shell really costs?

What is a government but an elected body of representatives of the people, voted by the majority of the population who are eligible to vote.

You are free to choose who you vote for, are you not?

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

3. LMAO. Money is not debt. Its a medium of exchange that represents an asset that can be used to acquire something else. Ridiculous statement.



So where does the money come from? Is it not from a central bank lent to a government on credit? Or do you think it grows on trees? Is produced by magic?

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Its your facts that fail.


I know, by your reasoning. But that's okay. I can live with that.



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RE: Where do you stand on the political compass - 12/6/2011 7:24:01 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

1. The horizontal scale is fiscal policy. Left on that scale means government spending. That is the truth, and Europe is the prime example.



Okay, so you're telling me that only those on the political left when in government spend money?

The political right doesn't spend money? What do they do? Give it away? Take it away? Wave magic wands?

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

2. Social spending takes from those who earn without their specific consent. A direct reduction in freedom. All freedom is equivalent whether its civil or economic because all facets of freedom affect every other one.



That's complete and utter bull not to mention completely unbalanced.

Your freedom when it comes to the government is expressed not through the taxes you pay but through the ballot box. It's a system known as democracy. You might have heard of it somewhere.

You also have a highly original concept of ownership.

I walk into a store, say Walmart. I fill my cart with groceries and go to the checkout. Say for argument's sake the total comes to $100. I hand over $100.

Now after I have handed over that $100 who owns that money - me or Walmart?

You pay tax out of your income to the Government - who owns the money? I say the Government, but you appear to disagree with this concept.

So you use a toilet? Make use of a road by any chance? See a doctor? More examples include hospitals, schools, the military, the police, services and stuff you take for granted. These all cost money.

You know I'd like to see you pay for the upkeep of an aircraft carrier out of your taxes or even your income. Do you know how much one tank shell really costs?

What is a government but an elected body of representatives of the people, voted by the majority of the population who are eligible to vote.

You are free to choose who you vote for, are you not?

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

3. LMAO. Money is not debt. Its a medium of exchange that represents an asset that can be used to acquire something else. Ridiculous statement.



So where does the money come from? Is it not from a central bank lent to a government on credit? Or do you think it grows on trees? Is produced by magic?

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Its your facts that fail.


I know, by your reasoning. But that's okay. I can live with that.




1. No, it doesnt refer to the political left per se, it is strictly a measure of fiscal conservatism or liberalism. There are some on the political left who are fiscally respsonsible and some on the political right who are big spenders. The point of the compass is to break the false connection between politics and policy.

2, What part of "specific" dont you understand?

3. The government doesnt "own the money". It issues currency as a medium of exchange, period. There isnt a single aspect of currency that you can show that is in any way related to debt.

Everywhere around you socialism is failing, but you cling to it. You'll sink with it or swim without it.

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RE: Where do you stand on the political compass - 12/6/2011 7:48:18 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		The political left spends money on some things, the Right spends money on different things......They both spend like a fucking drunken sailor on his last shore leave before a suicide mission.

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RE: Where do you stand on the political compass - 12/6/2011 7:55:26 PM   
Kirata


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~ FR ~

Granting the inadequacies of any simple quiz to probe the depths and nuances of authoritarianism verus libertarianism, right verus left, and the definitions thereof, I still found myself interested in the quiz results posted by those who participated.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Where do you stand on the political compass - 12/6/2011 8:11:53 PM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


~ FR ~

Granting the inadequacies of any simple quiz to probe the depths and nuances of authoritarianism verus libertarianism, right verus left, and the definitions thereof, I still found myself interested in the quiz results posted by those who participated.

K.


Yes. It's like an IQ test isn't it? We know that they are a woefully inadequate way of measuring intelligence, yet we're loathe to abandon them and forever intrigued when someone scores genius level .....

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/6/2011 8:12:25 PM >

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RE: Where do you stand on the political compass - 12/6/2011 9:16:55 PM   
stellauk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Everywhere around you socialism is failing, but you cling to it. You'll sink with it or swim without it.


This is your mantra, isn't it?

'A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth.'
Lenin.

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Where do you stand on the political compass - 12/7/2011 7:15:57 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Everywhere around you socialism is failing, but you cling to it. You'll sink with it or swim without it.


This is your mantra, isn't it?

'A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth.'
Lenin.


Lie? LMAO. Our stock market moves 4% in a day because of news that Germany will save the Eu asses that can't figure out how to run a fucking economy. and if we dont get our own ass out of office we'll be headed down the same trail. the most socialist of those countries will suffer tremendously from their socialism before things are righted. PIGS indeed.

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RE: Where do you stand on the political compass - 12/7/2011 7:19:24 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		LOL, our country standing up to their nostrils in shit is castigating those who stand up to their chests in it?

Iron does not contain enough ferric compound to compare to this bit of untutored irony. 

You are all alone on this one, sonny.

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RE: Where do you stand on the political compass - 12/7/2011 8:07:37 AM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:


'A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth.'
Lenin.

Strange, I thought Goebbels said that or maybe it was just his approach. Must check it out.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 12/7/2011 8:12:47 AM >

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RE: Where do you stand on the political compass - 12/7/2011 8:12:28 AM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		A lie told often enough becomes the truth.
Lenin
Russian Communist politician & revolutionary (1870 - 1924)



http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/838.html Source for the above


A lie, repeated often enough, will end up as truth. Dr Paul Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's Minister of Propaganda (1933-1945), invented the Big Lie theory;

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels . source for the above.

It appears that both said it.

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Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Where do you stand on the political compass - 12/7/2011 8:17:23 AM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
A lie told often enough becomes the truth.
Lenin
Russian Communist politician & revolutionary (1870 - 1924)

http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/838.html Source for the above


A lie, repeated often enough, will end up as truth. Dr Paul Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's Minister of Propaganda (1933-1945), invented the Big Lie theory;

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels . source for the above.

It appears that both said it.

Interesting, thanks for that. Perhaps some will suggest it indicative of a certain similarity between the two ideologies but that is a discussion for another day or another thread ...

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RE: Where do you stand on the political compass - 12/7/2011 8:18:59 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Y'all are quite welcome.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Where do you stand on the political compass - 12/7/2011 8:20:12 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Y'all are quite welcome.


I believe both Lenin and Goebbles said that as well, but I am unsure of Shakespeare's having said that. 

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