RE: Where does gender come from? (Full Version)

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LillyoftheVally -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/14/2011 10:04:57 AM)

I tend to be very liberal minded about things but I always find gender stuff rather irritating. I don't see gender as genetic in any way, I think its socially constructed, but then of course people who believe they are the wrong sex buck this trend somewhat. Maybe it is simply a desire for different sex organs who knows, but I don't believe wearing a dress or wanting to play football are biologically determined things. I think it is more about socialisation. They may well have been bought up in the same enviroment but that doesn't mean they have identical experiences or process them in the same way. I don't know, certainly interesting though.




Kirata -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/14/2011 10:31:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

At which point is one entitled to consider this continuous failure sceptically and question if the problem lies in the assumption itself? ...why are some people still so convinced that the origins of, and 'determining' factors for gender identity - our sense of ourselves as gendered - are located in our biology?

The rebuttal question is: why are some people so willing to deny our animal origin?

If an absence of evidence supporting the existence of God constitutes a valid reason for questioning the claim that God exists, why isn't an absence of evidence supporting a biological basis for gender identity a valid reason for questioning the claim that gender identity is biologically determined?

K.




tweakabelle -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/14/2011 7:58:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


In the instant case, tweakabelle, the only difference between the twins from the start was their sense of self. There was no discernable social or physical difference. Until such time as the nurture model can be presented convincingly one with curiosity is justifiably compelled to look inward. There are a cluster of identity questions that fall under the category of “Was I born this way?” Was I born submissive? Was I born Homosexual? Was I born a serial killer? Was I born with high intellect? Was I born with artistic ability? Was I born a pedophile? Etc. It makes little sense to throw out one hypothesis [nature as determinant] when no other has given satisfactory answers. The rebuttal question is: why are some people so willing to deny our animal origin?


It may be productive to focus for a moment on the question: 'What is an identity?' instead of rushing in to discover its origins.

Most of the answers to that question revolve around the central concept of 'a sense of self'. Identity refers to the way we see, we understand and we speak about ourselves. It's not a tangible or physical thing at all. We can't touch an identity, we can't see it.

And there are myriad kinds of 'identities' floating around - sexual, gender, religious, ethnic, professional, religious, linguistic and so on. Also, there are important aspects of self that aren't included in the notion of identity. For instance, I've never heard any one describe themselves as having say, an 'XX' or 'XY' identity.

What about the things that are really important in people? Can we have an 'intelligent' or 'tolerant' or 'loyal' or 'honest' identity? These are the sorts of things that I value most in other people - not who they bonk, whether they see themselves as m or f or whatever, what their religious beliefs are, ....... almost all of the time, I couldn't care less about those things.

If identity describes a 'truth' of ourselves, why don't we use it to describe the things that are really important? Instead we find that most of the more common areas where identity is applied relate to areas of social interaction. What should we read into this insight?

What does an identity really describe? An inner truth about ourselves? Or something else?





vincentML -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/14/2011 9:10:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


If an absence of evidence supporting the existence of God constitutes a valid reason for questioning the claim that God exists, why isn't an absence of evidence supporting a biological basis for gender identity a valid reason for questioning the claim that gender identity is biologically determined?

K.



I submit that you are drawing a false equivalency here, K.

Firstly, the question of the existence of god has occupied humankind for untold millennia, whereas the science of Behavioral Genetics in its most primative state dates no more than perhaps to the early 20th Century and has been accelerated only in the last several decades by new genetic technology and the mapping of the Human Genome. So, you are comparing an age old phiosophical question to a relatively youthful and exploding technology of research. Old apples to new oranges.

Secondly, there is ample evidence to support the question of our basic animal nature to be found in our evolutionary relationship to other mammals from the studies of paleontology, biochemistry, comparative anatomy, and comparative genomes.

Thirdly, the issue of genetic determinism of behavior is complicated by (a) there are 3 billion DNA pairs in the human genome; (b) 23,000 protein-coding genes; (c) the probability that behaviors if genetically determined are coded by a cluster of genes; and (d) there may be other factors in the genetic environment that cause genes to "switch" on and off.

Fourthly, there have been studies that suggest the linkage of self-identity in gay men with locations on the X chromosome.

In conclusion: there may be a dearth of evidence that supports genetic determinism of human self-identity but it is a young and expanding field of enquiry. Too early to write it off. Whereas, Secondly, the absence of evidence for god has been obfuscated by appeal to authority, personal revelation, and charasmatic faith [in the major and traditional religions at least] Again, old apples to new oranges.





Kirata -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/14/2011 9:23:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

In conclusion: there may be a dearth of evidence that supports genetic determinism of human self-identity but it is a young and expanding field of enquiry. Too early to write it off.

Actually, you've just made a very good case for not even writing it in yet.

K.








vincentML -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/14/2011 9:33:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Too early to write it off.

Actually, your post makes a better case for not even writing it in yet.

K.



a facile and empty rejoinder, K. And you slyly ignore your own question to which I responded but take my answer out of context. I hoped for and expected more from you. Disappointed if that is the best you have to offer to my assertion that it is a young and developing field with potential for success. Your answer is akin to saying: well, we are studying the Universe with new technology but we shouldn't hope to learn anything new.




Kirata -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/14/2011 9:40:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

a facile and empty rejoinder... I hoped for and expected more from you

I don't mind disappointing priests.

Your view is: Our new method may have produced a dearth of evidence, but we mustn't consider any other possibilities!

K.






willbeurdaddy -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/14/2011 10:20:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

a facile and empty rejoinder... I hoped for and expected more from you

I don't mind disappointing priests.

Your view is: Our new method may have produced a dearth of evidence, but we mustn't consider any other possibilities!

K.





From false equivalencies to misrepresentation of what he said. Good job.




Kirata -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/14/2011 10:30:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

From false equivalencies to misrepresentation... Good job.

Yeah, I have to agree with you about Vincent.

Despite this evidence (of continuing failure), why are some people still so convinced that the origins of, and 'determining' factors for gender identity - our sense of ourselves as gendered - are located in our biology? ~tweakabelle

The rebuttal question is: why are some people so willing to deny our animal origin? ~VincentML

K.





vincentML -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/15/2011 6:31:52 AM)

quote:

It may be productive to focus for a moment on the question: 'What is an identity?' instead of rushing in to discover its origins.


I would suggest that our sense of origins has a salient influence upon related issues such as shame and pride; prejudice and acceptance; crime and punishment; sin and redemption. Tis why the LGBiTG community has insisted their self-identity is not a choice while the evangelical opposition in America claims it is. Having said that however and not wishing to derail your thread, I will put my speculations aside and defer to your search for definition and classification. if I understand you correctly.

quote:

Most of the answers to that question revolve around the central concept of 'a sense of self'. Identity refers to the way we see, we understand and we speak about ourselves. It's not a tangible or physical thing at all. We can't touch an identity, we can't see it.


Understood.

quote:

And there are myriad kinds of 'identities' floating around - sexual, gender, religious, ethnic, professional, religious, linguistic and so on. Also, there are important aspects of self that aren't included in the notion of identity. For instance, I've never heard any one describe themselves as having say, an 'XX' or 'XY' identity.

What about the things that are really important in people? Can we have an 'intelligent' or 'tolerant' or 'loyal' or 'honest' identity?

These are the sorts of things that I value most in other people - not who they bonk, whether they see themselves as m or f or whatever, what their religious beliefs are, ....... almost all of the time, I couldn't care less about those things.


This is where you confuse me cuz you started this thread with a focus on m and f.

quote:

If identity describes a 'truth' of ourselves, why don't we use it to describe the things that are really important? Instead we find that most of the more common areas where identity is applied relate to areas of social interaction. What should we read into this insight?


Well, unless one is totally self-absorbed isn’t human life defined, or at least influenced by our social interaction?

quote:

What does an identity really describe? An inner truth about ourselves? Or something else?
How can there be an inner truth if truth is relative? Are you suggesting that each has an absolute?


Which brings me around to the question: how do we self-identify?






vincentML -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/15/2011 6:41:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

a facile and empty rejoinder... I hoped for and expected more from you

I don't mind disappointing priests.

Your view is: Our new method may have produced a dearth of evidence, but we mustn't consider any other possibilities!

K.





Well Fucksake, K! Where did I say "we mustn't consider any other possibilities?" willbeur has it right when he says you misrepresent me. Pretty shallow tactic for one who pretends to be clever and knowledgeable.




vincentML -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/15/2011 6:48:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

From false equivalencies to misrepresentation... Good job.

Yeah, I have to agree with you about Vincent.

Despite this evidence (of continuing failure), why are some people still so convinced that the origins of, and 'determining' factors for gender identity - our sense of ourselves as gendered - are located in our biology? ~tweakabelle

The rebuttal question is: why are some people so willing to deny our animal origin? ~VincentML

K.


*Sighs* It is sad when I have to explain a parallel to you, K. tweakabelle and I were debating genetic vs social determination. The term "animal origin" is properly used in that context. Are you having trouble sorting or just not reading carefully?





Kirata -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/15/2011 8:53:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

From false equivalencies to misrepresentation... Good job.

Yeah, I have to agree with you about Vincent.

Despite this evidence (of continuing failure), why are some people still so convinced that the origins of, and 'determining' factors for gender identity - our sense of ourselves as gendered - are located in our biology? ~tweakabelle

The rebuttal question is: why are some people so willing to deny our animal origin? ~VincentML

*Sighs* It is sad when I have to explain a parallel to you, K. tweakabelle and I were debating genetic vs social determination. The term "animal origin" is properly used in that context. Are you having trouble sorting or just not reading carefully?

Your "rebuttal" query draws a false equivalence (or "parallel" if you like) between tweakabelle's question and "denying our animal origins," which is a complete misrepresentation of her position. All she said was that given the current absence of any explanation from the genetic approach, why be confined to it? She is not some crazy anti-evolutionist.

Confirming this reading of your remarks, you insisted to tweakabelle that it was "incumbent" on her to "show what factors in their early environment made the difference for these twins" before being entitled to suggest that the case supports a social explanation, while you continued to claim with NO evidence that in fact it supports genetic determinism.

That said, however, I do understand that you view such tactics as "debate".

K.




vincentML -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/15/2011 12:28:24 PM)


quote:

Your "rebuttal" query draws a false equivalence (or "parallel" if you like) between tweakabelle's question and "denying our animal origins," which is a complete misrepresentation of her position. All she said was that given the current absence of any explanation from the genetic approach, why be confined to it? She is not some crazy anti-evolutionist.


Let's be fair and precise about what I said. I know she is not some crazy anti-evolutionist. I did not say that of tweakabelle. And she did not say "why be confined to it?" You are making all that shit up.

My comment was: "If you think this case supports social determinism of gender identity it is incumbent upon you to show what factors in their early environment made the difference for these twins." That is a pretty fundamental assertion on my part.

If you will take the time, Kirata, to read the link tweakabelle inserted in #7 you will find that the social model being used for gender identity assignment for children with ambiguous genetalia was based upon the work of that monster (imo) John Money of Johns Hopkins who butchered David Reimer. The doctors interviewed at #7 in 1985 were basing their judgments on a discredited model and they couldn't swear to its efficacy.

I am not asserting that tweakabelle proposes that model. I think she does not. It is a horror and illustrates a major failure of the social model for sex identity determinism ironically on a Nazi-like scale. I only know that she rejects the genetic hypothesis.

quote:

Confirming this reading of your remarks, you insisted to tweakabelle that it was "incumbent" on her to "show what factors in their early environment made the difference for these twins" before being entitled to suggest that the case supports a social explanation, while you continued to claim with NO evidence that in fact it supports genetic determinism.


Again you misrepresent what I said, which was: "If anything, imho and I know you have some expertise in this area, it seems on the face of it that this case supports genetic determinsm of personality traits." This case itself provides supporting (not conclusive) evidence. I put it to anyone who may wish to make the case for nurture as a determinant in this case he will have to show the factors that were so crucial in the environment of these children that caused the difference.

quote:

That said, however, I do understand that you view such tactics as "debate".


Debate? If this is a "debate" it is one-sided. I have yet to seen a proposition from you. Only criticism. Hardly a debate. Just more of your nit-picking. If you have a position make a declaration that can be debated instead of merely repeating misrepresentations and misinterpretations of my comments. It is the same old kirata trick: pick on what someone else is saying but lack the courage to reveal his own position if he even has one. Until such time as you state a position and take part in a serious debate I will not be bothered to respond at any length. Your comments so far have not been worth my time.




Real0ne -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/15/2011 3:57:31 PM)

FR:

Where does gender come from?

gender identity is derived from the wearing of pants or panties.





tweakabelle -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/15/2011 6:45:48 PM)

Firstly to clarify: I am not proposing any kind of determinist explanation for gender identity – be it genetic, social or interactive. I find the never-ending “Nature vs Nurture” argument dull and obsolete. Nor do I believe it is helpful to examine this issue in those terms. So rather then getting stuck in that trap, can we agree to set that issue aside temporarily and explore some other perspectives If people wish, it can always be re-visited.

Above, I asked some questions about the idea of ‘identity’. There’s some startling evidence that really ought to be included in any consideration of ‘identity’ – the guevedoche (literally: 'balls at 12', I’m told) children from the Dominican Republic.

Very briefly: These are children born into a disadvantaged remote village who present with female or female-appearing genitals at birth. They are raised as girls, until puberty, when suddenly, testicles descend and a penis grows. The villagers accept this transformation with good grace, the girls become boys and go on to marry and have children themselves.

The underlying cause of this dysfunction is a deficiency in the enzyme 5-alpha-reductase-2 which is largely responsible for the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone. Dihydrotestosterone is the chemical responsible for the development of male external genitalia and secondary sex characteristics. The flood of hormones is released at puberty causes the ‘male’ genitals to develop and appear. A similar phenomenon has been recorded in remote tribal areas of Papua New Guinea.

The first scientific study* of the guevedoche children, led by an endocrinologist, Julieanna Imperto-McGinley, focussed on the physical aspects of this phenomenon. For our purposes, the relevant finding was that gender identity followed the gender of rearing unless testosterone intervened. This finding is controversial and has criticised for many reasons and from many perspectives.

For orthodox theories of gender identity development, the signifigance of the guevedoche evidence is this: According to orthodox theories, gender identity development is thought to be complete, “fixed and immutable” by age approx 18-24 months. Traumatic changes to GI after this are held to be devastating to the individual, with potentially catastrophic psychic consequences. It destroys the individual’s oedipal development, by reversing it. According to this view, the guevedoche children shouldn’t survive their pubertal changes.

Yet the children do – not only do they survive, but they seem to make the transition almost seamlessly. By any of the everyday standards, they become successful males. This outcome directly contradicts othodox gender identity theories, which insist rigidly it simply shouldn’t happen like this – that the guevedoche experience should be impossible.

What impact do the guevedoche have on theories of gender identity development? For mine, minimally, this evidence suggests a certain malleability/fluidity/open endedness in gender identities that were supposed to have become “fixed and immutable” many years previously.

What do you think?





* http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM197905313002201 Imperato et al
Androgens and the Evolution of Male-Gender Identity among Male Pseudohermaphrodites with 5α-Reductase Deficiency
Julianne Imperato-McGinley, M.D., Ralph E. Peterson, M.D., Teofilo Gautier, M.D., and Erasmo Sturla, M.D

For a very different perspective, here's a review of this and similar evidence by a transgender activist, who has an obvious political interest in the interpretation of this evidence.

The BBC-TV program 'The FIght To Be Male' (sic) has an interesting interview with a guevedoche man, and some staggering footage of other intersex (hermaphrodite) data. It's difficult to find, the spin is atrocious but the raw data is amazing. It ought to be available at a good University library. If you're interested, it's well worth the effort





vincentML -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/16/2011 8:00:14 AM)

quote:

What impact do the guevedoche have on theories of gender identity development? For mine, minimally, this evidence suggests a certain malleability/fluidity/open endedness in gender identities that were supposed to have become “fixed and immutable” many years previously.


It occurs to me that the guevedoche do not cleanly support the gender identity fluidity you seem to champion. The guevedoche example fails because ultimately their GI is governed by chemical production and timing. I will agree that the Money/Ehrhardt model of ‘immutability’ was probably flawed, to put it kindly, and lead to many harmful surgeries committed upon innocent children.

Your hypothesis would prosper if we could get chemistry out of the way.

There are a couple of hints that the elimination of chemistry [hence procreative-determining genes in my mind] is possible. In his criticism Nataf quotes the statement: 'Whatever I feel, that's the way I am.’ Ignore for the moment it may have been a quote from one of the guevedoche who transgendered into a boy at puberty. Look instead at the exception: Lorenza, the one who chose to remain a girl even after the testis descended because she liked being courted by men. She felt like a girl in spite of her chemistry. This reminds me of hearing David Reimer say something similar in a documentary. He always felt like a boy even after Dr. Money butchered his genetalia. Both Lorenza and David were what they felt and felt what they were despite their chemistry. David eschewed the injections of female hormones that were supposed to facilitate his new gender identity.

Nataf also mentions cross-dressers along with transgendered. I think interviews among those populations could be more fruitful to the proposition of gender fluidity because they self-identify despite their chemistry. [I wonder what the genesis of that phenomenon is.] Once beyond chemistry, or despite chemistry, what leads these seemingly genetic and anatomical men to self-identify as females? And vice-versa of course. So yes, transgendered and cross-dressers seem to represent the fluidity you speak of. But why? And while I wish to know why I suspect you might inform me I do so because I am stuck in the mindset of the two gender model. [:D] Maybe so. But intersex does seem to be an anomaly of development, doesn’t it?











Kirata -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/16/2011 10:42:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

My comment was: "If you think this case supports social determinism of gender identity it is incumbent upon you to show what factors in their early environment made the difference for these twins." That is a pretty fundamental assertion on my part.

Then why don't you apply the same standard to yourself? That's a pretty fundamental requirement of fairness.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I have yet to seen a proposition from you.

You must have missed it then. I'm sorry. I proposed that you were belittling a social approach to this case and unfairly demanding that it identify the factors supporting a social conclusion before you would countenance discussing such a notion, while continuing to ignore that prior restraint when issuing your own wholly unsupported conclusion in favor of genetic determinism.

K.




Kirata -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/16/2011 10:45:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Firstly to clarify: I am not proposing any kind of determinist explanation for gender identity... There’s some startling evidence that really ought to be included in any consideration of ‘identity’ – the guevedoche (literally: 'balls at 12', I’m told) children from the Dominican Republic.

That's fascinating. I had never heard of this. Thanks for the links.

K.




Kirata -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/16/2011 11:17:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Both Lorenza and David were what they felt and felt what they were despite their chemistry... what leads these seemingly genetic and anatomical men to self-identify as females? And vice-versa of course.

These kinds of facts seem to implicate something beyond either social or genetic determinism. I don't know what that might be, but the answer to the question of where our gender identity comes from appears to be getting farther and farther from having a neat answer.

K.




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