RE: Where does gender come from? (Full Version)

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OttersSwim -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/29/2011 9:01:42 AM)

I see plenty of evidence in Social Determinism in the fact that at age 47, I still have a penis.

Gender dysphoria is something that affects people to varying degrees of severity.  Some would rather die - often literally - than stay their birth sex.  Some are less affected.  I fall into the latter category.  I have never desired to kill myself over this, I don't hate my penis, etc.  I have lived as a male for most of my 47 years and that person...the male part and the female part...are me.  And so, by several decision points in my life, I have made the determination to not undergo SRS.

I am not always happy with that decision.

And so I suspect social determinism -is- having an effect here.  The cost, the social stigma, the economic challenges of finding jobs, etc.  All forces of society that shape the lives of transgender people everywhere - more in keeping them in their birth sex, rather than helping determine their actual gender.



vincentML -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/29/2011 9:21:30 AM)

quote:

And so I suspect social determinism -is- having an effect here. The cost, the social stigma, the economic challenges of finding jobs, etc. All forces of society that shape the lives of transgender people everywhere - more in keeping them in their birth sex, rather than helping determine their actual gender.


We are not in disagreement on the social costs. And while I have not walked in your footsteps I can value your truth. However, the initial challenge offered by the OP was to the concept that "biology is destiny." Help me understand. Weren't your choices how to respond to your recognition of your gender identity in the face of prevailing social dogma?



OttersSwim -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/29/2011 10:09:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

We are not in disagreement on the social costs. And while I have not walked in your footsteps I can value your truth. However, the initial challenge offered by the OP was to the concept that "biology is destiny." Help me understand. Weren't your choices how to respond to your recognition of your gender identity in the face of prevailing social dogma?


Yes they were.  And as I have stated before, I was completely drawn to female things and behavior patterns even while the boy things were being increasingly pushed at me.  And yet, I believe it was a total internal process for me - an inexplicable need, desire and draw and a decided sense of wrongness about being a boy and not a girl.  That need, desire, and draw are still totally with me to this day and I have experienced them in every one of the almost 17,500 days I have been alive on the big-ball-o-dirt.  The "sense of wrongness" has changed over time as I came into adulthood and more rational thinking about what I was experiencing and processing all this into a place where I could accept it and even embrace it.

I don't think that society determines gender identity.  I think that society can influence reactions to identity - especially when concepts of identity conflict with societal norms.  I believe that I, like Lady Gaga  [;)],  was actually born this way.



SilverBoat -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/29/2011 10:17:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Maybe a better example is hurricanes; just about everybody's focus is on tracking the 'eye' of the storm, but it's really an emergent vortex, a temporary 'eddy' that appears in a very complex process, with its location influenced by steering currents, adjacent convective potential, etc. While everybody else is looking at predictions for the eye's movement, the weatherguys (and I) are looking at where the nearby hot water and moist air will be, and the jet stream and other high/low pressure areas will be, because the center will be dragged tangent to the biggest thunderstorms that it triggers around itself. (And I tried to keep that simple, LOL.)


An excellent and illuminating example. I take it you intend it to be applied to the process of prenatal identity development. Alternately can it be that the transgendered is born as she or he is, a tiny human eddy, and the heat of love from the hearth and the steering currents of society impact hers or his behavioral path through life?


Thanks, and yes, and to more than that, since it seems identity is a dynamic thing (though "thing" seems a lame word to use) that can change subtly or abruptly throughout much of life. Have you read about the 'belief' genes? Apparently, some people are predisposed to 'latch' into belief systems, and tend to stick with the first one they're exposed to or have a formative experience with, such as getting 'saved', out-of-body, etc. Other people are less likely to hold similar events as pivotal to their identity, worldview, etc. I think there was some work underway looking for specific neurophysical differences associated with that, but don't recall the progress so far.

Some cultures seem to have adapted to the ambiguities or shifts in identity based on whether those appear to threaten the status quo or not, others less so. I don't know how much of it is true, in sort of parallel to the g/d  kids, but some amerind tribes were said to have recognized and accepted 'castes' (for lack of a better word at the moment) for warrior females and homebody males.

Anyway, a very interesting discussion, and many thoughtful contributions.

But, it's a beautiful day here, so I'm off to go sailing for a while.

(And BTW, this is the best dialogue about this topic I've seen in quite a while, y'all.)
SB




xssve -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/29/2011 5:06:19 PM)

quote:

I am an amalgam of male socialization and female chemistry in inception (again, just my personal belief) to create what I am today....what I have been my entire life.
Make you wonder why if it's the way men are supposed to act, it has to be socialized into you.

Stuff that makes you go hmmm... 



tweakabelle -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/29/2011 7:24:12 PM)

quote:

Some cultures seem to have adapted to the ambiguities or shifts in identity based on whether those appear to threaten the status quo or not, others less so. I don't know how much of it is true, in sort of parallel to the g/d  kids, but some amerind tribes were said to have recognized and accepted 'castes' (for lack of a better word at the moment) for warrior females and homebody males.


There is an extensive anthropology of gender systems that accept the gender ambiguous and incorporate them into their cultures. This ranges from the "berdache" of many of the Native American Tribes to kra-toeys in Thailand, acault in Burma, hinjra in India (just to name a few) and all points of the planet.

Bodyguards (ed Julia Epstein) is an excellent series of essays on this subject. This book is easily read by a general reader but retains academic integrity. Well worth a read if you're interested IMHO.

quote:

[....] it seems identity is a dynamic thing (though "thing" seems a lame word to use) that can change subtly or abruptly throughout much of life.


An anthropologist friend told me of an isolated tribe in a remote part of New Guinea that practices strict sex segregation from puberty onwards. Unsurprisingly this tribe is known for its aggression, violence and propensity for warfare. The young males, as part of their initiation into 'warrior-hood' are required to perform (what we recognise as) oral sex on older warriors. The semen, which is ingested, is said to contain "warrior spirit', and is considered essential for the young boys maturation into warriors. The tribe attach no sexual significance to this ritual - it is not seen as a sexual act at all. The young men/boys marry and have children after they achieve warrior status. Homosexual behaviour, as we understand it, is unknown in this tribe.

How might we understand the sexual identities of these boys/warriors? Are they homosexual or heterosexual? Are their sexual identities fluid? Does it make sense to try to think of them in terms such as heterosexual or homosexual? We can note a similar change of sexual identity among the guevedoche children. They also marry and father children in adulthood, despite a decade of socialisation as girls.

It seems that there is plenty of evidence to support your view that identities are dynamic entities. A lot of feminist and radical psychoanalytical scholarship and practice has concluded that it makes more sense to approach identities as dynamic entities that people re-create, re-invent and reinforce all the time. This approach enables one to account for identities that people experience as stable of 'fixed' throughout their lives, and for those identities that are more open to change over time.

This approach finds the kind of radical identity changes/disjunctions one encounters in the areas of gender, sex and sexuality unproblematic, whereas more orthodox approaches have enormous difficulty coming to terms with these changes, or even developing a theoretical framework that allows us to understand and/or explain them.



vincentML -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/30/2011 8:54:44 AM)

quote:

It seems that there is plenty of evidence to support your view that identities are dynamic entities.


After some additional thought I can concede that there is gender ambiguity and fluidity within cultures and within individuals. It seems pretty obvious to be so if we lay aside the questions of genesis you posed in the OP. And I will not even raise the issue that chemistry is mutable throughout a lifetime [;)]

Happy New Year, tweakabelle, et all [:)]



tweakabelle -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/30/2011 7:21:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

It seems that there is plenty of evidence to support your view that identities are dynamic entities.


After some additional thought I can concede that there is gender ambiguity and fluidity within cultures and within individuals. It seems pretty obvious to be so if we lay aside the questions of genesis you posed in the OP. And I will not even raise the issue that chemistry is mutable throughout a lifetime [;)]

Happy New Year, tweakabelle, et all [:)]

Hearing you say that has made my year Vincent! [:D]

Happy 2012 to you and everyone else too!



vincentML -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/31/2011 12:56:04 PM)

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]



xssve -> RE: Where does gender come from? (1/7/2012 9:01:04 AM)

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0029265



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