RE: Where does gender come from? (Full Version)

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xssve -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/27/2011 1:24:59 PM)

Sorry I got off track, but to get back to your question, sexual dimorphism is a relatively recent adaptation in geological terms, no? Are you asking what causes sexual dimorphism? We have good explanations as to why, i.e., the value of recombination, having two sets of genes and associated traits to choose from, and inherited immunities from two sources, etc. - how is still a matter of speculation as far as I know, till somebody manages to turn agamogenesis into gamogenesis.

Little beyond me anyway, I'll leave you to it.



tweakabelle -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/27/2011 2:29:11 PM)

quote:

xssve
At least two peer reviewed papers have been linked to by Vincent and myself, but you say they aren't acceptable evidence? Acceptable to who?

You have supplied none. Vincent has supplied two links, one links to a song video which is usually not considered good evidence. Vincent's second link does refer to a scientific paper, however judging from his post #78, he now agrees doesn't provide any evidence to support biological determinism. That adds up to a total of zero evidence to support your fantasy by my counting.
quote:

xssve
I don't remember you asking me anything, this is your crusade, this is all pretty solid theory with more than enough evidence to elevate to the status of theory, it's up to you to repudiate it, that's how this works: you have a different hypothesis, lay it on us, what else is there besides protein expression on one side, social construct on the other?


You were asked repeatedly to supply evidence or citations to support your drivel - for example in posts #s 57, 63, 65, and 73.

Standard practice is that the person proposing an explanation is required to provide evidence to support it. In the absence of any supporting evidence, theories fail. For all your psuedo-scientific waffle it appears you're unfamiliar with the basic rules of science or knowledge.


quote:

Little beyond me anyway, I'll leave you to it.


How nice of you to make one honest statement at last. Please do some study and learn the basics - 'Myths of Gender'* sounds ideal for you. Every one of the myths you have presented in your posts is thoroughly debunked by a Professor of Biology.

* http://books.google.com.au/books/about/Myths_of_gender.html?id=2si6oraJxcMC&redir_esc=y By carefully examining the biological, genetic, evolutionary, and psychological evidence, a noted biologist finds a shocking lack of substance behind ideas about biologically based sex differences.



xssve -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/27/2011 2:41:22 PM)

Yeah? If I knew that I'd be up for the Nobel Prize, not telling you in a BDSM forum. How you could ask that and expect anything but speculation is the real mystery.



xssve -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/27/2011 2:58:49 PM)

As for the book, it's clearly a political manifesto, based on the reviews, and I'd have to say that gender identity assignment is largely political and engaged in to protect the status quo, I don't anybody with shred of common sense disputes it.

If you're trying to say that testosterone and estrogen and related hormones have nothing to do with how people behave, then you're going to have some 'splainin to do. And, much of behavior stems from that biology, even if it isn't strictly biological - if you have to gestate and raise the issue, your motivations, priorities, and needs are going to result in a different set of strategies than if you can just pop a nut and make yourself scarce, no?

Lot's of externalities there without even dragging biology into it, beyond whether you're the sperm donor or the incubator.

As to how or why these traits are assigned to one gender archetype or another, and just how accurate those assignments may be other than generalizations, there is plenty of room for discussion, I myself think there are probably a lot fewer differences than conventional wisdom would have it, but then I've worked alongside women for a long time in traditionally "masculine" fields, and never found gender to get too much in the way of it, so beyond basic reproductive morphology and the attendant aforementioned externalities, I don't even attempt to categorize people that way.

Unless I'm constructing a fictional character or something, people I take on a case by case basis.



tweakabelle -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/27/2011 5:57:35 PM)

quote:

Little beyond me anyway, I'll leave you to it.


xssve you promised to leave us alone. Please keep your promise, thanks.



tweakabelle -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/27/2011 6:22:23 PM)

quote:

However, my central confusion persists. How did Nicole come to recognize her gender identity? It wasn't a choice, was it?


I'm afraid that I can't offer a definitive analysis either VincentML.

As the twin's genetic inheritance, and experiences prior to birth are identical (or as near as it gets to identical) it seems safe to suppose whatever happened - if indeed anything identifiable happened - occurred after birth. This comment is a supposition and open to question if you like.

There are many areas left to look for credible explanations. For example, one area we haven't even begun to explore yet is the role of the psyche - yet the role of the psyche appears central to 'gender identity'. Contemporary approaches to the formation of the "Self" - eg. post-modernist-influenced theories of subjectivity - are another. Judith Butler's work is yet another. So is discursive (Foucaultian) analysis. And of course psychoanalysis.

IMHO what we shouldn't do is decide it's all too hard and go for the easiest available option. That has been tried and failed so many times. Perhaps take a little break and let all the discussion to date sink in - explore its ramifications at your leisure.

One model that might be helpful at this point is Chaos Theory. This might view the area of gender ambiguity as an area of chaos in our current gender system. As gender is a human system it is subject to chaotic events and unpredictable outcomes. Imposing the artificial order of the Two Sex model on the diversity of human differentiation creates areas of chaos inevitably, according to this view. While it isn't terribly helpful in describing the minutiae of gender, it does offer a loose framework that allows us to ponder all the evidence in a meaningful way.



xssve -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/27/2011 6:47:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Little beyond me anyway, I'll leave you to it.


xssve you promised to leave us alone. Please keep your promise, thanks.
Then quit addressing posts to me, you like it apparently.



vincentML -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/27/2011 8:16:52 PM)

quote:

Perhaps take a little break and let all the discussion to date sink in - explore its ramifications at your leisure.


Agreed, tweakabelle [:)]



OttersSwim -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/27/2011 8:53:59 PM)

So I will just slip in here during the lull between the novels...  [;)]

I have always believed that "sex is between the legs" and "gender is between the ears" and I add "in the heart".   I absolutely believe that there is a very distinct and separate chemistry that affects how we develop in the womb and sets up a sort of baseline set of patterns that our lives will follow - those patterns, to my mind fall into the gender binary of male or female. 

From birth onward however, I believe that while the hormones in our bodies do affect the physiology, they need the compatible brain to interact with, or its sort of "no dice" to significantly have an influence on behavior - thoughts, feelings, beliefs.   Being transgendered, and having lived my life with a male body and normal testosterone levels, I can say that from my experience, it (the testerostone) does little to influence -in any way- my very female brain.  I actually feel as if I just don't have the port or the plug for the testosterone to work in my brain to significantly influence my behavior, feelings, or beliefs.

I don't have -any- medical or scientific data to back up my claim.  It is all simply based on my own personal experience.  I was born with a female brain in a male body.  I still have a female brain in a male body.

Now, male socialization has taught me how to be "characteristically male".  I sort of suck at it.  [;)] 

I am an amalgam of male socialization and female chemistry in inception (again, just my personal belief) to create what I am today....what I have been my entire life. 

For me, gender comes from the brain and lives in the heart.



SilverBoat -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/27/2011 10:41:16 PM)

After reading through the replies above, and recalling vigorous discussions 30-plus yrs ago about whether the so-called 'junk' DNA and various RNA etc fragments present in the replication/transcription environment had influence on the expression of genes and eukaryotic development ... As an engineer/physicist/programmer who concluded that the biogeneticists had egregiously overstated the certainty of their conclusions about the molecular machinery involved, it seems sort of funny that I've been more than completely vindicated during the last decade or so ...

Sure, two 'identical' twins might start with exactly the same DNA in their first cell, but that doesn't guarantee one or more single-base mutations immediately afterward, that even the finest sieves might not yet have discovered, or that some environmental factor, including their sibling's presence, could have influenced their physical development. And that 'physical' development includes the geometry and chemistry of their brains, not just their bodies.

How many identical twins have you seen that were at least slightly if not quite different, in physique, behavior, etc, from a very early age? That's proof positive that 'nurture' extending back past perhaps even conception, has significant effects on the 'works-almost-every-time' development of gross physical anatomy. It's no stretch of reasoning to reach parallel conclusions about the human neurophysical structures. And there's a reliable body of sound evidence that mentality, identity, cognition, etc as operant within those structures are not static phenomena, but often recursively self-modifying and even capable of modifying their own chemical and physical substrate.

Yeah, that does to some extent reduce to the nature vs nurture framings, but I suspect that the neurophysical processes of cognition, identity, etc will ultimately be so entangled that consciousness, psyche, etc may have to remain 'emergent' phenomena. That some (a few?) cultures deal smoothly with resolutions of ambiguous 'gender' suggests that even sexual identity is a mutable perception. However, the manners in which some religious groups aim to 'rechannel' homosexuality etc seem at best crude blunderings. We don't understand enough about what gender 'identity' is to muck about with trying to change it, especially if its origins maybe pre-natal 'nurture' ...



tweakabelle -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/27/2011 10:42:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim


I don't have -any- medical or scientific data to back up my claim.  It is all simply based on my own personal experience.  I was born with a female brain in a male body.  I still have a female brain in a male body.

Now, male socialization has taught me how to be "characteristically male".  I sort of suck at it.  [;)] 

I am an amalgam of male socialization and female chemistry in inception (again, just my personal belief) to create what I am today....what I have been my entire life. 


Thank you so much for sharing your story and your truth with us.

Having a personal story that satisfies you puts you so far ahead of most people, who rarely think about these things at all. And, as long as it works for you, go for it! That is the only thing that counts isn't it?

For mine, no gender is better/worse or more/less natural than any other gender. As far as I can tell the main difference between trans-genders and mono-genders is the TGs suffer a lot more social disapproval, and are seen to be more self conscious about performing their gender (aka gender role) than others. TGs are seen to make conscious choices some times where mono-gendered people think their choices are natural.

However, monogender choices are not natural choices, they're sub-conscious choices, they happen so quickly so automatically that most people aren't even aware they're making a choice. It's a bit like speaking .... clearly an acquired habit, but when we do it it feels as natural as anything. And every time we open our mouths we make dozens if not hundreds of choices sub-consciously - what words to use, what words not to use, which order to put the words in ... and so on.

quote:

For me, gender comes from the brain and lives in the heart.


Yes. Most people would say that their gender represents a fundamental part of who and what they are, a part of their personal truth. One of the things that fascinates me about this area is that if we can solve the complexities of gender (on a broad scale) we will be a lot closer to answering the question: What is a human being?

So high stakes indeed. Then again, gender is always a high stakes game - for everyone - is it not? [:D]



vincentML -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/28/2011 6:19:40 PM)

quote:

I absolutely believe that there is a very distinct and separate chemistry that affects how we develop in the womb and sets up a sort of baseline set of patterns that our lives will follow - those patterns, to my mind fall into the gender binary of male or female.


Well, yes. What you say here is probably true. However, in the instant case described at the head of this thread both members that developed from the monozygote shared the same uterine environment. No evidence has been presented that there is any difference in their chemistry or morphology. How Nicole recognized her identity remains a mystery.



vincentML -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/28/2011 6:35:50 PM)

quote:

Sure, two 'identical' twins might start with exactly the same DNA in their first cell, but that doesn't guarantee one or more single-base mutations immediately afterward, that even the finest sieves might not yet have discovered,


I would suggest that no matter when the mutation occured in the blastula or after the twins parted, a mutation is still a genetic event. There is no evidence in this case of any difference in the uterine environment that could plausably be tied to a causal event for selective gender identity.

quote:

or that some environmental factor, including their sibling's presence, could have influenced their physical development. And that 'physical' development includes the geometry and chemistry of their brains, not just their bodies.


The only evidence we have is that Nicole recognized early on that she was female-gendered. Nothing in the article spoke of differences in the home environment or of the brain. Alas, we are left to speculate until we have better information.




tweakabelle -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/28/2011 7:16:51 PM)

quote:

Yeah, that does to some extent reduce to the nature vs nurture framings, but I suspect that the neurophysical processes of cognition, identity, etc will ultimately be so entangled that consciousness, psyche, etc may have to remain 'emergent' phenomena. That some (a few?) cultures deal smoothly with resolutions of ambiguous 'gender' suggests that even sexual identity is a mutable perception. However, the manners in which some religious groups aim to 'rechannel' homosexuality etc seem at best crude blunderings. We don't understand enough about what gender 'identity' is to muck about with trying to change it, especially if its origins maybe pre-natal 'nurture' ...


From where I sit, the concept of 'emergent' phenomena is an exciting development. It promises huge potential as an explanatory tool. It moves the discussion beyond the barren terrain of the tedious Nature vs Nurture debate. It makes the crude deterministic perspectives - be they social, genetic/biological or genital determinism - obsolete.

It is consistent with far more flexible approaches, approaches where the diversity of human differentiation is seen as the positive it is. It resonates with the more contemporary perspectives to gender (some of which were listed in post #86 above). It appears to parallel neatly with the physiological, the psychic and environmental (or social) factors and perspectives that need to be accounted for.

Lastly (and far from least) it's such a refreshing change from a previous effort to present biological determinism as dogmatic truth. Biology, in this new approach is seen as far more fluid, open ended, aware of its own uncertainties - a far more elegant, useful approach that reflects the kind of thinking so often seen at the cutting edge of most disciplines.

So, if you wish, I'd love to hear you expand on this concept for us.



vincentML -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/28/2011 7:17:18 PM)

quote:

However, monogender choices are not natural choices, they're sub-conscious choices, they happen so quickly so automatically that most people aren't even aware they're making a choice. It's a bit like speaking .... clearly an acquired habit, but when we do it it feels as natural as anything. And every time we open our mouths we make dozens if not hundreds of choices sub-consciously - what words to use, what words not to use, which order to put the words in ... and so on.


Agree that most, if not all our choices are influenced by sub-conscious factors including our emotions, past experiences, learned attitudes, stored data, and the stasis or instability of our physiology. And we may not, often cannot identify those factors that led to our choices. "Sub-conscious choices" raises the question of free-will. How can it be a choice if we don't know why we are making it?

Children learn to speak over time by interactions with adults. The process is much more complicated than an 'acquired habit' suggests. Here is a fascinating experiment on the topic. Gender Identification or recognition may very well occur in the same way. But, that doesn't seem to apply to Nicole. At least, we have no evidence that she was taught differently.

Sorry, intended to stay away [;)]



SilverBoat -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/28/2011 8:42:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Sure, two 'identical' twins might start with exactly the same DNA in their first cell, but that doesn't guarantee one or more single-base mutations immediately afterward, that even the finest sieves might not yet have discovered,


I would suggest that no matter when the mutation occured in the blastula or after the twins parted, a mutation is still a genetic event. There is no evidence in this case of any difference in the uterine environment that could plausably be tied to a causal event for selective gender identity.

quote:

or that some environmental factor, including their sibling's presence, could have influenced their physical development. And that 'physical' development includes the geometry and chemistry of their brains, not just their bodies.


The only evidence we have is that Nicole recognized early on that she was female-gendered. Nothing in the article spoke of differences in the home environment or of the brain. Alas, we are left to speculate until we have better information.




There are examples from other species (rodents, cats, dogs at least, if memory serves) that embryos influence each others' development in utero, in particular, which of the siblings turns out to be the social 'alpha' of otherwise genetic twins. I don't recall all the details, but being a step or few ahead at the earliest differentiation was thought to be significant. The mechanism proposed was hormonal releases and their effects on the other embryos' expression, chemical gradients, etc, but I don't recall the author or journal. (The article was at least a couple of years ago, I tend to keep up more with physics than biology.)

I think that's sufficient to anticipate similar effects on human psychosocial phenomena, that may have as yet otherwise unexplained neurocognitive basis. If I notice or recall more of interest on that topic, I'll try to remember to add it here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

From where I sit, the concept of 'emergent' phenomena is an exciting development. It promises huge potential as an explanatory tool. It moves the discussion beyond the barren terrain of the tedious Nature vs Nurture debate. It makes the crude deterministic perspectives - be they social, genetic/biological or genital determinism - obsolete.



Regrettably, it's emergent phenomena in the physical sciences, not the neurobiology fields, and the adjunct issue of how human memetics affects even the concepts we use to think and talk about such matters, that I've sort of had to pick and choose as topics of interest. There is just so much going on in research that keeping up with everything seems impossible.

Mass and forces as emergent properties of p-dimensional brane-theory, yeah, that'd be something, but probably off-topic here.

Maybe a better example is hurricanes; just about everybody's focus is on tracking the 'eye' of the storm, but it's really an emergent vortex, a temporary 'eddy' that appears in a very complex process, with its location influenced by steering currents, adjacent convective potential, etc. While everybody else is looking at predictions for the eye's movement, the weatherguys (and I) are looking at where the nearby hot water and moist air will be, and the jet stream and other high/low pressure areas will be, because the center will be dragged tangent to the biggest thunderstorms that it triggers around itself. (And I tried to keep that simple, LOL.)

Consciousness, identity, cognition, internal narrative, etc ... There's been lots written about those in more or less scientific and/or speculative literature, and much of that so handicapped by its own memetic bases and academic one-upmanship that it's pretty much garbage. I expect that when humans finally do explain their own consciousness, it'll be some sort of dynamic emergent, a complex neurochemical polymodal wavefront that resonates in variably multipath echoes along our synaptic geometries. And in that context, it wouldn't take much of a shift or hitch to induce a slightly different resonance, and a resulting change in worldview, identity, etc.

And with all that resonating going on, it's no wonder that brained creatures need sleep, to let the busiest synapses recover, or that they dream, if not everything stays shut down ...

Anyway, that's enough fun ideas for now, I need to go work on some verse that's been left untended ...

Thanks for prompting some very interesting discussion!

SB



vincentML -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/29/2011 5:26:09 AM)

quote:

I think that's sufficient to anticipate similar effects on human psychosocial phenomena, that may have as yet otherwise unexplained neurocognitive basis. If I notice or recall more of interest on that topic, I'll try to remember to add it here.


You have a good point here. It may be that Nicole is the extreme beta. One would think there would be more reported cases of this manifestation. She seems extraordinarily singular. But, it may be possible at least.



vincentML -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/29/2011 7:42:17 AM)

quote:

It seems difficult to explain this story within a framework of genetic determination of gender. It seems to me to pose some difficult questions for most traditional explanations/understandings of gender. Is it time to abandon the adage that "biology is destiny'? Can we transcend our physiologies?


Please allow me a brief review of my understanding of this thread.

We are presented with the challenge to abandon biology as destiny and consider the possibility that we can transcend our physiologies.

We are offered two cases: (1) identical twin boys where one identifies as female, and (2) the research on the guevedoche children by the endocrinologist Julieanna Imperto-McGinley. Both cases seem to clearly support the chemical influence of gender identity. especially the latter. But you dismiss Imperto-McGinley with "This finding is controversial and has criticised for many reasons and from many perspectives." Unfortunately, you leave me at a disadvantage because I do not have access to a single criticism of a case that appears to strongly favor hormonal determinism.

BanthaSamantha offered this:
quote:

What unnerves me is the suggestion that Wyatt, despite completely unambiguous genetics and biology, actually is a girl. Such a notion trivializes sex, and minimizes what makes a man or a woman. It reduces the essence of womanhood to wearing dresses, putting on makeup, playing with dolls, etc. I find such a crass reduction offensive. Little Wyatt may be a feminine boy, but he is a boy none the less; it will be his experiences as a particularly feminine boy that will be valuable to philosophers of the future.


And your response was:
quote:

Who exactly is challenged? Nicola has to face the challenges after making her decision. The poor infants in the linked analysis don't even get the luxury of a choice. The challenge that their ambiguity presents to a two-sex model literally gets doctored into oblivion. And we can all carry on pretending that it doesn't exist.


SilverBoat offers the possibility of the influence of in utero hormones. Additionally, he offers a theory of emergent phenomena to what, supercede chemical determinism?

The one guevedoche child who does not transform to male at puberty offers the explanation that she is who she feels she is.

tweakabelle, I don't see that either Nicola [Wyatt] or the one guevedoche made a decision. Rather, they expressed a recognition of their gender identity. So I:

1. don't see how we can get away from the issue of determinism.
2. see no evidence for social determinism; biology still seems to be destiny.
3. fail to see the fluidity of gender identification that you propose, except perhaps as expressed in private fantasies and those acted out by cross-dressers. Also, men-have-a-feminine-side stuff [not denied]
4. don't see that the two-sex model is altered [no pun intended]
5. accept that gender identity recognition in conflict with genital reality is valid and fraught with personal difficulties.
6. sympathise with your concern for social intolerance of the transgendered.

I hope I have given a correct summary. Please let me know if I have misrepresented anything or missed an important issue.

Besties [:)]








vincentML -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/29/2011 8:47:55 AM)

quote:

5. accept that gender identity recognition in conflict with genital reality is valid and fraught with personal difficulties.
6. sympathise with your concern for social intolerance of the transgendered.


Tweakabelle, aren't 5 and 6 the most important issues, after all?



vincentML -> RE: Where does gender come from? (12/29/2011 8:54:12 AM)

quote:

Maybe a better example is hurricanes; just about everybody's focus is on tracking the 'eye' of the storm, but it's really an emergent vortex, a temporary 'eddy' that appears in a very complex process, with its location influenced by steering currents, adjacent convective potential, etc. While everybody else is looking at predictions for the eye's movement, the weatherguys (and I) are looking at where the nearby hot water and moist air will be, and the jet stream and other high/low pressure areas will be, because the center will be dragged tangent to the biggest thunderstorms that it triggers around itself. (And I tried to keep that simple, LOL.)


An excellent and illuminating example. I take it you intend it to be applied to the process of prenatal identity development. Alternately can it be that the transgendered is born as she or he is, a tiny human eddy, and the heat of love from the hearth and the steering currents of society impact hers or his behavioral path through life?



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