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RE: Iraq war over,congradulations to our troops and tha... - 12/21/2011 7:54:29 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		way to prove a point:)
Congrats

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(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Iraq war over,congradulations to our troops and tha... - 12/21/2011 7:59:43 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Oh, you think I am a brain dead leftist zombie now?


Youre half right .


(seriously, that was put up there in fun because it was just TOO easy)

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Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Iraq war over,congradulations to our troops and tha... - 12/21/2011 8:07:35 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		LOL.  You don't have a cogency gene whatsoever do you? 

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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Iraq war over,congradulations to our troops and tha... - 12/21/2011 10:57:20 AM   
VideoAdminGamma


Posts: 2233
Status: offline 		Everyone needs to take a moment and review what has been posted by VideoAdminAlpha and Moderator21 http://www.collarchat.com/m_3863025/tm.htm

Please stay on topic and refrain from personal attacks.

VideoAdminGamma

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Iraq war over,congradulations to our troops and tha... - 12/21/2011 6:56:45 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		For mine Obama is to be congratulated on keeping his campaign promise and ending US military involvement in Iraq.

The price America, and the rest of the 'coalition of the willing' pays for this disaster is yet to be calculated in full. We know the cost in $, in lives lost and lives shattered. After Vietnam, we all discovered that the social impact, and the ongoing personal costs of participation in ill-advised military adventures will continue to be paid for a long long time into the future. Those who need reminding of the enormous costs might like to refresh their memories here or here.

One very obvious lesson is that those people who have failed to learn the lessons of the Iraqs, Vietnams and/or Afghanistans*, those who still defend these disastrous wars, those who continue to propose new military adventures overseas have nothing interesting or constructive to offer or tell us on how nations might conduct their foreign affairs..

Instead, the ideologies, the beliefs, the ill-informed assumptions that inform such petrified views stand in the dock accused of massive incompetence as well as crimes against humanity. The best the future can hold for these ideologies, beliefs, and ill-informed assumptions is permanent irrelevance.

* I have in mind the Soviet Union's disastrous experience in Afghanistan here.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/21/2011 7:07:01 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Iraq war over,congradulations to our troops and tha... - 12/22/2011 1:25:33 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Thank you for digging up the reference, tweakabelle.

In all fairness to Mrs. Glaspie, though, we don't even need her statements to analyze this situation.

Prior to the First Gulf War:
1. Official US foreign policy was not to get involved at all.
2. Saddam was an important, valued ally and major exporter of oil.
3. Kuwait was drilling angled oil wells to siphon Iraqi oil across the border.

Of particular relevance to the points raised by Sanity: it is now, as it was then, recognized that Iraq, with Saddam Hussein at the helm, was one of the primary stopgaps against Iran in the Middle-East, and an important factor in fighting terrorists with Sunni extremist ties. This stopgap is recognized to have been effective enough to draw support also from the USSR, as well as Western Europe. It is known that terminating the Hussein presidency in Iraq removed this stopgap.

Saddam undoubtedly knew it would be an unpopular move, and that a war would only be tolerated if limited in duration and scope. But to guess that his allies would go to war against him for upholding the borders of his sovereign nation, and without giving any prior warning ("no opinion" does not count), is not a credible guess. Also, he would have to consider that Iraq would look weak if they did nothing to stop the Kuwaiti incursion. Finally, peaceful resolutions had already been sought in this conflict, of which Mrs. Glaspie was no doubt aware, so reiterating the desire for one is a filler piece, not actual input. He had already made it amply clear that the situation was not tolerable.

Still, let's examine it from one more angle.

Let's say there's an oil well in Texas, and then Mexico starts to drill into it. The drilling platform is placed on the other side of the border, but the bore is at an angle, so that it enters the well on the US side of the border. It siphons billions of dollars worth of oil from the well, and any complaints are brushed off by the statement "we haven't moved troops into Texas, so you can't do shit."

Does anyone here think the response by the USA would be anything short of exceedingly swift and violent?

I don't think Putin saying "your continent ain't my problem" would halt a military operation.

Russia firing off a retrograde ICBM and glassing DC would be a surprising outcome.

That's the story of Saddam, 140 degrees due West.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Iraq war over,congradulations to our troops and tha... - 12/22/2011 1:32:31 AM   
Miserlou


Posts: 264
Joined: 12/20/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Obama actually praised the achievement, our achievement in Iraq

Which by extension is high praise of the Bush Doctrine. Read Obamas Ft Bragg speech (which I linked to above) and if youre honest with yourself you may come to understand that what we, America as a whole have achieved in Iraq along with out allies is something to be quite proud of, regardless of which side of the aisle you are on




it wasn't worth it.


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Misery

and the history books forgot about us

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Iraq war over,congradulations to our troops and tha... - 12/22/2011 2:26:18 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

There is no happiness or success in this, and congratulations are not in order.

We have killed thousands of US soldiers and wasted trillions of dollars in this fiasco.  There is no reason to believe that Iraq will not descend into civil war, and that the ensuing government will be friendly to the US.

We never should have invaded in the first place.  Our withdrawal is simply an acknowledgement that the invasion was one of the biggest mistakes of all time.

Obama accomplished nothing by withdrawing except to keep a promise, and to realize that the entire invasion was destined to failure from the start.

Condolences to the families of those who died in a senseless war.




yeh you people know so little about the sublties of law.

imperial america and england now have a lifetime (the lifetime of the corporation known as america), interest in iraq and Afghanistan by right of conquest.  Precisely the way the federal government took over the southern states in the civil war and changed the government of this country immediately afterward.

Its all a product of design, but you need to read the right law books to understand how it works.

Its nothing less than amazing what one can learn from an indepth understanding of land and other law variants.

Think its easy?  See how long it takes you to get that information even though you now have an advantage in that you know what your target it.  I didnt, I got lucky.


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(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Iraq war over,congradulations to our troops and tha... - 12/22/2011 3:30:33 AM   
stellauk


Posts: 1360
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

And he didnt have grandiose reasons as you envision for doing such things, he did such things for power, money, and control


I'm not going to claim that Saddam was our buddy but we damn sure supported and propped him up prior to Gulf War I. A lot of the ordnance that was aimed at our men and women was bought and paid for with US tax dollars..


As for "power, money and control", Those are the 3 reasons we invaded Iraq almost 9 years ago and the reason over 4000 of our finest youth are dead. (and for what?)


Thank you Hillwilliam for saving me the keystrokes.

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Iraq war over,congradulations to our troops and tha... - 12/22/2011 4:20:32 AM   
Fetters4U


Posts: 393
Joined: 5/25/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Let's say there's an oil well in Texas, and then Mexico starts to drill into it. The drilling platform is placed on the other side of the border, but the bore is at an angle, so that it enters the well on the US side of the border. It siphons billions of dollars worth of oil from the well, and any complaints are brushed off by the statement "we haven't moved troops into Texas, so you can't do shit."

Does anyone here think the response by the USA would be anything short of exceedingly swift and violent?


You're kidding, right?

This is MEXICO you're talking about. The US would apologize, pay them reparations for the extra cost of the longer well, pass a law to stop the land owner suing for his lost revenue, pass a federal law to override the States rights over its sovereign territory, and throw half a dozen border guards in jail. What were you thinking?




I am glad the War in Iraq is ending, regardless of the reasons. It will be nice to get all those young folks out of uniform and into the unemployment lines where they belong.
.  

< Message edited by Fetters4U -- 12/22/2011 4:34:39 AM >

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To err is human; to edit, divine...

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Iraq war over,congradulations to our troops and tha... - 12/22/2011 4:52:45 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Only time will tell

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miserlou

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Obama actually praised the achievement, our achievement in Iraq

Which by extension is high praise of the Bush Doctrine. Read Obamas Ft Bragg speech (which I linked to above) and if youre honest with yourself you may come to understand that what we, America as a whole have achieved in Iraq along with out allies is something to be quite proud of, regardless of which side of the aisle you are on




it wasn't worth it.



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Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Miserlou)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Iraq war over,congradulations to our troops and tha... - 12/22/2011 5:32:27 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

There is no happiness or success in this, and congratulations are not in order.

We have killed thousands of US soldiers and wasted trillions of dollars in this fiasco.  There is no reason to believe that Iraq will not descend into civil war, and that the ensuing government will be friendly to the US.

We never should have invaded in the first place.  Our withdrawal is simply an acknowledgement that the invasion was one of the biggest mistakes of all time.

Obama accomplished nothing by withdrawing except to keep a promise, and to realize that the entire invasion was destined to failure from the start.

Condolences to the families of those who died in a senseless war.




59 doesn't care about any of that. As long as something makes the repubs look bad, it's all good in his book.


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This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Iraq war over,congradulations to our troops and tha... - 12/22/2011 7:06:50 AM   
Miserlou


Posts: 264
Joined: 12/20/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Only time will tell

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miserlou

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Obama actually praised the achievement, our achievement in Iraq

Which by extension is high praise of the Bush Doctrine. Read Obamas Ft Bragg speech (which I linked to above) and if youre honest with yourself you may come to understand that what we, America as a whole have achieved in Iraq along with out allies is something to be quite proud of, regardless of which side of the aisle you are on




it wasn't worth it.


there's no need for any time, the price is already too high. none of the reasons that have been put forward are worth the price.


_____________________________

Misery

and the history books forgot about us

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Iraq war over,congradulations to our troops and tha... - 12/22/2011 8:52:54 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Big bombs in bagdad today, sunnis and shi'ites gonna go at it.  Bush doctrine?

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Miserlou)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Iraq war over,congradulations to our troops and tha... - 12/22/2011 11:00:32 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
But but but Obama declared victory, and congratulated the troops on their mission accomplished... 

(Muslims blowing up Muslims = Bushs fault, typical knee jerk reaction)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Big bombs in bagdad today, sunnis and shi'ites gonna go at it.  Bush doctrine?


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Iraq war over,congradulations to our troops and tha... - 12/22/2011 11:39:08 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


But but but Obama declared victory, and congratulated the troops on their mission accomplished... 

(Muslims blowing up Muslims = Bushs fault, typical knee jerk reaction)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Big bombs in bagdad today, sunnis and shi'ites gonna go at it.  Bush doctrine?



No he didnt. Sanity is wrong again.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Iraq war over,congradulations to our troops and tha... - 12/22/2011 11:47:25 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


But but but Obama declared victory, and congratulated the troops on their mission accomplished... 

(Muslims blowing up Muslims = Bushs fault, typical knee jerk reaction)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Big bombs in bagdad today, sunnis and shi'ites gonna go at it.  Bush doctrine?


Given Sanity's long history of vitriolic anti-Obama posts here, his new found love for Obama ought to raise some justifiably suspicious eyebrows.

One explanation for Sanity's 'Road to Damascus'-like conversion is that the looney Right/neo-cons desperately need to deflect attention from their own role in designing, promoting and instigating the Iraq debacle almost single handedly.

As the fragile coalition in Baghdad unravels and large-scale terrorism re-emerges within a few days of the US extricating itself from Iraq, more and more attention will focus on the bankrupt idiotic looney Right/neo-con ideology that is largely responsible for the Iraq disaster.

It's easy to see why the Sanitys of this world don't want us to go there.

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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Iraq war over,congradulations to our troops and tha... - 12/22/2011 12:06:40 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		They will cover all these inconsequential things up when the election slaughter of 2012 gives them total control of all branches of government.

Or not.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Iraq war over,congradulations to our troops and tha... - 12/22/2011 1:04:21 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

They will cover all these inconsequential things up when the election slaughter of 2012 gives them total control of all branches of government.

Or not.

We will see. Let's hope that the level of prosecutorial zeal demonstrated by Starr and the Right generally in pursuit of Clinton will be repeated in any examination of the Iraq adventure, its origins and its outcomes.

These events, the 'Bush doctrine', and insane looney Right/neo-con ideologies that provides an intellectual basis (such as it is) for fiascos like Iraq deserve to examined and analysed forensically prior to their permanent relocation in a convenient sewer. Every American deserves an understanding, in intimate detail, of the lethal dangers inherent in the ideologies of the looney Right and/or neo-con positions, and their hideous consequences in the real world.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/22/2011 1:10:18 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Iraq war over,congradulations to our troops and tha... - 12/22/2011 1:58:44 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Only time will tell


Immediately prior to invasion, officials had to explain to Bush that there were two Muslim factions in Iraq, Sunni and Shia. Time is already telling.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16297707

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 120
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