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RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model... - 12/19/2011 10:49:32 PM

InvisibleBlack

Posts: 865
Joined: 7/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYlyb1Bx9Ic

Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky demolish one of the central tenets of our political culture, the idea of the "liberal media."

Do you have a link to the "systematic model" and the "massive empirical research" which Mssrs. Herman and Chomsky used to arrive at their conclusions?

[Edited: Typos]

"Manufacturing Consent" by Herman and Chomsky is a standard text in media research and analysis. (IIRC, it's been a long time since I read it) there is a complete account of their methodology in the book. Such accounts are standard practice in academic work.

Is the data publically available or do I have to buy the book?

(Also (and I'm not accusing Chomsky of this) - I've seen a massive amount of shoddy academic work. I've seen everything from people throwing out contradicting data to "normalizing" things to where curves went in the opposite direction from how they charted in the raw data. I've seen people show up to peer reviews not having read the paper in question, drink some coffee, and then leave after approving the methodology without participating in the discussion at all. Nothing surprises me anymore. I've been told my trust index is extremely low these days.)

_____________________________

Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that, I'll be over here, looking through your stuff.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 21

RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model... - 12/19/2011 10:58:11 PM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYlyb1Bx9Ic

Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky demolish one of the central tenets of our political culture, the idea of the "liberal media."

Do you have a link to the "systematic model" and the "massive empirical research" which Mssrs. Herman and Chomsky used to arrive at their conclusions?

[Edited: Typos]

"Manufacturing Consent" by Herman and Chomsky is a standard text in media research and analysis. (IIRC, it's been a long time since I read it) there is a complete account of their methodology in the book. Such accounts are standard practice in academic work.

Is the data publically available or do I have to buy the book?

(Also (and I'm not accusing Chomsky of this) - I've seen a massive amount of shoddy academic work. I've seen everything from people throwing out contradicting data to "normalizing" things to where curves went in the opposite direction from how they charted in the raw data. I've seen people show up to peer reviews not having read the paper in question, drink some coffee, and then leave after approving the methodology without participating in the discussion at all. Nothing surprises me anymore. I've been told my trust index is extremely low these days.)

His "methodology" is to use exactly the tactics that he supposedly decries.

all you need to know is in his quotes

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to InvisibleBlack)

Post #: 22

RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model... - 12/19/2011 11:33:55 PM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

Is the data publically available or do I have to buy the book?

(Also (and I'm not accusing Chomsky of this) - I've seen a massive amount of shoddy academic work. I've seen everything from people throwing out contradicting data to "normalizing" things to where curves went in the opposite direction from how they charted in the raw data. I've seen people show up to peer reviews not having read the paper in question, drink some coffee, and then leave after approving the methodology without participating in the discussion at all. Nothing surprises me anymore. I've been told my trust index is extremely low these days.)

For mine, that sounds like a very sensible attitude! There is a lot of shoddy stuff out there, particularly on one side of the climate change debate (the deniers).

If you're unable to locate the info you need on the net, the text I've quoted ought to be available at any good public library or any University library with a humanities department worthy of the title. That ought to save you any expense.

While there's no such thing as a perfect methodology, I'd be surprised if Chomsky's work has been found to be subject to serious methodological flaws. His reputation is stellar, one of your country's most distinguished intellectuals. His specialist field is linguistics - and he has a broad range of areas on which he has published. Beyond the above (and from this distance), I'm not sure I can help you any more.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/19/2011 11:37:22 PM >

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Post #: 23

RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model... - 12/20/2011 12:31:25 AM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

nevermind

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 12/20/2011 12:51:53 AM >

(in reply to InvisibleBlack)

Post #: 24

RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model... - 12/21/2011 10:02:03 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Noam Chomsky, the poster boy for liberal media, demolishing it? ROFL!!!!

Every time you trot out this tired old tripe I ask you again who owns the ny times,washington post,la times and all of the rest of the so called "liberal media"
How exactly does conde naste differ from rupert murdoch?

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 25

RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model... - 12/21/2011 11:22:15 AM

provfivetine

Posts: 410
Joined: 2/17/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYlyb1Bx9Ic

Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky demolish one of the central tenets of our political culture, the idea of the "liberal media." Instead, utilizing a systematic model based on massive empirical research, they reveal the manner in which the news media are so subordinated to corporate and conservative interests that their function can only be described as that of "elite propaganda."

LOL

Where in the video is there a "systematic model" based on "massive empirical research?" There isn't! He is using the same tactics that he accuses others of doing.

According to Chomsky, anything that deviates from anarcho-syndicalism is not liberal.

(in reply to kalikshama)

Post #: 26

RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model... - 12/21/2011 11:47:30 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine
According to Chomsky, anything that deviates from anarcho-syndicalism is not liberal.

Where are the credible proofs of this incredible statement? You are using the same tactics that you accuse others of doing.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to provfivetine)

Post #: 27

RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model... - 12/21/2011 11:53:33 AM

provfivetine

Posts: 410
Joined: 2/17/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine
According to Chomsky, anything that deviates from anarcho-syndicalism is not liberal.

Where are the credible proofs of this incredible statement? You are using the same tactics that you accuse others of doing.

http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/19760725.htm

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 28

RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model... - 12/21/2011 12:43:15 PM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine
According to Chomsky, anything that deviates from anarcho-syndicalism is not liberal.

Where are the credible proofs of this incredible statement? You are using the same tactics that you accuse others of doing.

http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/19760725.htm

Chomsky: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
Capitalist: Shut up!
Chomsky: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! HELP! HELP! I'm being repressed!
Capitalist: Bloody peasant!
Chomsky: Oh, what a give away. Did you here that, did you hear that,
eh? That's what I'm on about -- did you see him repressing me,
you saw it didn't you?

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to provfivetine)

Post #: 29

RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model... - 12/21/2011 1:00:08 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine
According to Chomsky, anything that deviates from anarcho-syndicalism is not liberal.

Where are the credible proofs of this incredible statement? You are using the same tactics that you accuse others of doing.

http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/19760725.htm

Again I asked for proofs of that statement, no such thing was discussed in that interview, intimated in that interview, asked or answered in that interview.

anarcho-syndicalism appears twice, one in the title and once in his answer to a question, liberal appears 3 times, never in connection with anything you have said he said.

So you still are the holder of an incredibly incredible statement with no foundation that does not in any way appear true. And was not at all buttressed by the content of that interview.

So we are faced with the original question, unanswered.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to provfivetine)

Post #: 30

RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model... - 12/21/2011 2:16:16 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine
According to Chomsky, anything that deviates from anarcho-syndicalism is not liberal.

Where are the credible proofs of this incredible statement? You are using the same tactics that you accuse others of doing.

http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/19760725.htm

Chomsky: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
Capitalist: Shut up!
Chomsky: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! HELP! HELP! I'm being repressed!
Capitalist: Bloody peasant!
Chomsky: Oh, what a give away. Did you here that, did you hear that,
eh? That's what I'm on about -- did you see him repressing me,
you saw it didn't you?

That is a suprising attitude from a known spanish communist sympathizer. Chomsky told you that you weren't up to snuff or what?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 31

RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model... - 12/21/2011 2:53:06 PM

provfivetine

Posts: 410
Joined: 2/17/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Again I asked for proofs of that statement, no such thing was discussed in that interview, intimated in that interview, asked or answered in that interview.

anarcho-syndicalism appears twice, one in the title and once in his answer to a question, liberal appears 3 times, never in connection with anything you have said he said.

So you still are the holder of an incredibly incredible statement with no foundation that does not in any way appear true. And was not at all buttressed by the content of that interview.

So we are faced with the original question, unanswered.

This is because you don't understand Chomskys' linguistics. According to Noam, the word "liberal" means classical-libertarian; conversely, "libertarian" means democratic-socialist - the exact opposite of what it denotes here in the US.

Chomsky comes out against representative democracy (classical-liberalism) quite frequently and attacks anything with a monopolistic power structure.

He's doesn't explicitly say, in these exact words: "ANYTHING THAT DEVIATES FROM ANARCHO-SYNDACALISM IS NOT LIBERAL(LIBERTARIAN)!" It's already implied in his whole political philosophy. If you had a grasp of the concepts that Chomsky advocates, then you would understand this.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 32

RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model... - 12/21/2011 2:58:09 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

According to Noam, the word "liberal" means classical-libertarian;

conversely, "libertarian" means democratic-socialist

Uhhhhhhhhhh, ok I will give you another chance, you have citations for this?

<snip>
Chomsky comes out against representative democracy
</snip>

<snip>
and attacks anything with a monopolistic power structure
</snip>

I believe those two snips we can agree on, without reservation. But not the same thing in terms of what you are (and I use this word with major reservations) 'postulating' otherwise, innit?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to provfivetine)

Post #: 33

RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model... - 12/21/2011 2:58:13 PM

provfivetine

Posts: 410
Joined: 2/17/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/19760725.htm

Chomsky: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
Capitalist: Shut up!
Chomsky: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! HELP! HELP! I'm being repressed!
Capitalist: Bloody peasant!
Chomsky: Oh, what a give away. Did you here that, did you hear that,
eh? That's what I'm on about -- did you see him repressing me,
you saw it didn't you?

LOL!

He's also a huge hypocrite. I wonder how he sleeps at night, as he collects a paycheck from one the of the biggest benefactors of corporate welfare, while maintaining that everything be owned co-operatively.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 34

RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model... - 12/21/2011 3:07:12 PM

provfivetine

Posts: 410
Joined: 2/17/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

According to Noam, the word "liberal" means classical-libertarian;

conversely, "libertarian" means democratic-socialist

Uhhhhhhhhhh, ok I will give you another chance, you have citations for this?

From Chomsky: "A consistent libertarian, then, should be a socialist, "libertarian" socialism being the polar opposite of "liberal" capitalism."

I can't believe you don't understand this. It's the most central tenet in Chomskyism. Go read Chomsky cause you are clueless.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 35

RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model... - 12/21/2011 3:17:57 PM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine
According to Chomsky, anything that deviates from anarcho-syndicalism is not liberal.

Where are the credible proofs of this incredible statement? You are using the same tactics that you accuse others of doing.

http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/19760725.htm

Thanks for the link. I found Chomsky's discussion of anarchism most interesting.

Of course there's a large gap between the things Chomsky actually said and the spin you are putting on Chomsky's words. Any one who reads the link will discover this for themselves. Fortunately they will also discover what Chomsky really thinks and says.

So, I recommend people read the link and find out for themselves.

Personally I like a lot of the things Chomsky says and remain unpersuaded by a lot of the other things he says. Whatever he has to say, I find his views informed, intelligent and well worth listening to and considering carefully.

quote:

This is because you don't understand Chomskys' linguistics.

This is a ridiculous claim. It has nothing to do with Chomskyian linguistics, a completely separate field to political analysis and the basis on which his reputation was initially established'. You're confusing 'political terminology' and linguistics.

It matters in this instance because Chomsky's background and professional speciality is in linguistics, so the phrase "Chomsky's linguistics" has a specific meaning to those familiar with his work. All this implies to me that it's you who lacks understanding of Chomsky's work, not mnottertail.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/21/2011 3:41:06 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 36

RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model... - 12/21/2011 3:43:42 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

According to Noam, the word "liberal" means classical-libertarian;

conversely, "libertarian" means democratic-socialist

Uhhhhhhhhhh, ok I will give you another chance, you have citations for this?

From Chomsky: "A consistent libertarian, then, should be a socialist, "libertarian" socialism being the polar opposite of "liberal" capitalism."

I can't believe you don't understand this. It's the most central tenet in Chomskyism. Go read Chomsky cause you are clueless.

Well not as clueless and uncomprehending as you, <<<< see that little thing called a comma there? What is it's use in the sentence?

A consistent libertarian, then, should be a socialist.
"Libertarian" socialism being the polar opposite of "liberal" capitalism.

Note I replaced a comma with a period just to make it easier for you. you can leave them conjoined if you like it does not change its meaning.

According to Noam, the word "liberal" means classical-libertarian

"libertarian" socialism being the polar opposite of "liberal" capitalism."

In the strictest sense, it is the political philosophy that holds individual liberty as the basic moral principle of society. In the broadest sense, it is any political philosophy which approximates this view. Libertarianism includes diverse beliefs, all advocating strict limits to government activity and sharing the goal of maximizing individual liberty and political freedom.

Now strictest sense I would call classical, howz about you?

now what then would be libertarian socialism? I would only conjecture at this point that the sharing would be economic?
because at this point as I understand it, it is all it could mean.

Far from a classical view of libertarian.

so, minimum government, minimum stricture, minimal political repression, maximum economic benefit to the maximum amount of people, even if it means taking yours.

What then would be liberal capitalism?
The destruction of the middle class by economic means with the full support of the government, lassize faire policy in politics and by means of the miltary industrial complex appeasement policies of government the unfettered exploitation of environment and resources?

A maximal degree of freedom for personal economic social and political gains (liberal), while maximizing private ownership and controlling the means of production all unfettered and uninterfered BY STRICTURES OF ANY SORT for the private individual (TO INCLUDE CORPORATIONS BY LAW) (capitalism)

How does that view differ from what we here in the United States are witnessing? How is that turned upside down?

So, in this case, you lose, take off your pants. I bic buchu.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 12/21/2011 3:54:22 PM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to provfivetine)

Post #: 37

RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model... - 12/23/2011 3:49:10 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

Nice of you to bring it up, kalikshama, although I think the book and attendant model should have been brought up in the initial post to save everyone some time.

General reply to the thread:

Let's get one thing out of the way. Regardless of what view one has of Chomsky as a person, and his political stance, his achievements and contributions to the state of human knowledge can only be doubted or disrespected by those who have partaken of neither knowledge, nor achievement, in their lifetime. Period. He is as influential and important as the other great minds throughout human history, and I doubt many of his serious detractors would rank him below the top dozen of this age in that regard.

Apart from the most rigorously tested work in the social sciences, perhaps rivalled by Rind et al, his efforts have netted a revolution in several fields, including linguistics, psychology and so forth. The vigor of his contribution to the world, and the amount of insight applied to these contributions, pegs him as one of the most important people alive today, and it will be the end of an era the day he succumbs to his advancing years.

Dismissing him is the sort of thing best avoided in public, as it looks as good as a spreading brown stain on one's pants.

Paraphrasing Paul Graham: in life, you either pick your battles, or you become Noam Chomsky. That quality, of fighting every battle, bespeaks a stamina anyone can admire without necessarily agreeing with his point of view. Even his opponents and detractors should pause to acknowledge that this man is the Chuck Norris of smarts, and that contesting his actual (academic, not so simplistic, and hence not as readily attacked) work is reminescent of trying to take Fairbairn in a knife duel, except Chomsky "occasionally" evidences a certain sadistic glee in toying with people. (That, I would speculate, is a part of what gives him the energy to keep going, and as kinksters, we might find ourselves with a quirky smile the next time we see him doing that.)

As such, it would seem a wise choice to do what InvisibleBlack has done: focus on the question he discusses in the video, rather than flaunting the aforementioned brown stain that has become so popular to flaunt recently. Since I am really just a simplistic moron, I'm going to make my comment on the video this: well, duh, you won't get a bias that's not in the filter, regardless of the feedback.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to kalikshama)

Post #: 38

RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model... - 12/24/2011 9:14:58 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Let's get one thing out of the way. Regardless of what view one has of Chomsky as a person, and his political stance, his achievements and contributions to the state of human knowledge can only be doubted or disrespected by those who have partaken of neither knowledge, nor achievement, in their lifetime. Period. He is as influential and important as the other great minds throughout human history, and I doubt many of his serious detractors would rank him below the top dozen of this age in that regard.

Very true, Aswad. What makes his observations largely irrelevant to a discussion of liberal media bias here, is a matter of definitions. "Liberal," in his context, bears little relationship to the political divide as it exists in the US today. Since the US media caters to a middle American audience, according to the dominant American paradigm of what is is normal, no, we don't get much of the hard socialism that would meet the definition of "liberal" he is going with.

Within the mainstream liberal/conservative split of the US hoi polloi however, there most certainly is a strong media bias towards the liberal. The video says the evidence is based on voting habits, and promptly dismisses it. No mention is even given to polling on the social issues which make up so much of how the conservative/liberal divide is calculated by our local standards. Those polls clearly show that our newsrooms are widely out of sync with the public at large, and tilted far to the left of our spectrum.

So yes. Chomsky is absolutely right in saying that the media isn't biased towards a radical overthrow of the capitalist system. As I expected when I first saw the thread, so what?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 39

RE: The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model... - 12/24/2011 12:31:13 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

well, I will do a quick survey here then Rich. Do we allow women in a merica to choose whether or not to have an abortion? (social reality is liberal).
Did a healthcare bill get passed regardless of all the hysterical end of the worldliness? (social reality is liberal)
Can gays serve in the military? (social reality is liberal)

and so on.....

Grab a beer, its over.... easy enough. My work here is done.

/thread

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 40

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