RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (Full Version)

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GotSteel -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/29/2011 9:19:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Why do you say homosexuality is uncommon? Because of the numbers I've seen, the modern sources are putting the percentage in the single digits. "In his 1948 book, Sexual Behavior in the Human Male, Alfred Kinsey shocked the world by announcing that 10% of the male population is gay. A 1993 Janus Report estimated that nine percent of men and five percent of women had more than "occasional" homosexual relationships. The 2000 U.S. Census Bureau found that homosexual couples constitute less than 1% of American households. The Family Research Report says "around 2-3% of men, and 2% of women, are homosexual or bisexual." The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force estimates three to eight percent of both sexes." http://www.gallup.com/poll/6961/what-percentage-population-gay.aspx

kdsub -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/29/2011 9:23:49 PM)
quote: In the example given, there are 2 people of the same gender kissing and a third person, the viewer, “repulsed”. It’s obvious that only one person here has a problem. That person is threatened by something that is harmless, none of their business. “Repulsed” people are threatened at some level or other Being repulsed is not necessarily a result of being threatened teakabelle. If I see two men kissing and sucking each others nipples I am repulsed…but that does not mean I think any less of them… or believe they have any less rights than I…including marriage. It just means that the act is so foreign to me that it gives me the creeps to watch. I am not threatened…I have no fear… I am secure in my sexuality…I don’t believe homosexuality is condemned by God and all people regardless of preference should be welcomed. Butch

tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/29/2011 10:05:18 PM)
quote: Reports in two years In 2012, the bureau will use the raw relationship data from the 2010 census to publish reports on the characteristics and demographics of both unmarried and married same-sex couples. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/07/gay-population-us-estimate_n_846348.html We have to wait a bit longer to see what the new census report says about the number of same sex households. But I dont think that still would count the number of single homosexual people. The problem, as I see it, is that many are still in the closet, and many of these surveys were limited in the number of people. One I found... While about 7% of adult women and 8% of men identify as gay, lesbian or bisexual, the proportion of individuals in the U.S. who have had same-gender sexual interactions at some point in their lives is higher... was done in 2010... http://www.nationalsexstudy.indiana.edu/ But its survey group was... It includes the sexual experiences and condom-use behaviors of 5,865 adolescents and adults ages 14 to 94. DO I think they are the majority? No. I do believe its far greater than 1 percent of the population. And where do you place those who are bi? It would be fascinating to see a more extensive survey than the limited numbers by those that were done before. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States Even this only indicates large cities.

tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/29/2011 10:07:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I don't believe there is any fear involved... it just gives many the creeps thinking or seeing intimacy among the same sex. I am a firm believer you can not make or unmake someone gay.. Those that are not gay cannot at a base level understand the attraction between same sex individuals Butch lol... lets be real, Butch. Many love to see same sex between women. Its the male counterparts that give many the "creeps"

kdsub -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/29/2011 10:10:02 PM)
Agreed...[:D]

tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/29/2011 10:12:28 PM)
But, does it give them the creeps because its just how they feel... or because its how they think they are supposed to feel... [;)]

kdsub -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/29/2011 10:18:04 PM)
Creeps is a better word than repulsed and it is closer to my feelings anyway. To me is has always been that way…It was not taught to me in any way…I believe it is just a natural reaction like it or not. It is like cringing at the gore in a slasher movie. I don’t look down on them…they are just people to me but I can’t help the reaction... I am trying to just be honest and I'm sure I will take flak and be called a racist or homophobe. Those calling me those names would be wrong. Butch

tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/29/2011 10:34:14 PM)
Im not judging.. I have no experience in what a man feels when he sees two other men together. But, you mut admit, some of the creeps is society associated, just like it is with women. If young boys had friends who thought two girls getting it on was sick, twisted, ect... they would develop the same inclination... or say they have.

kdsub -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/29/2011 10:44:45 PM)
But no one taught me that...but of course it does happen I'm sure. I just believe there is a natural reaction in many watching something foreign to their brain pattern. Completely outside of any learned behavior. In fact I believe the behavior you speak of has its roots in the natural reaction. But the way individuals react to that feeling of creepiness is what can make a racist homophobe and set them apart from me. Butch

tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/29/2011 10:52:21 PM)
I agree, it is what sets you apart. You dont have to enjoy watching people having sex to be homophobic. Its your reaction to the knowledge that may or may not make you one. But, can you see how these thoughts would skew any results of a gay population survey?

tweakabelle -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/30/2011 3:01:14 AM)
quote: GotSteel What I'm seeing are a string of assumptions to get from the effect to your cause. Do you have data for this position? Certainly we can pull up a few examples cough Ted Haggard cough but is there anything that points to your cause being common, especially considering how uncommon homosexuality seems to be? The fear of being identified as gay can be considered as a form of social homophobia. Theorists including Calvin Thomas and Judith Butler have suggested that homophobia can be rooted in an individual's fear of being identified as gay. Homophobia in men is correlated with insecurity about masculinity. [...] Nancy J. Chodorow states that homophobia can be viewed as a method of protection of male masculinity.[54] Various psychoanalytic theories explain homophobia as a threat to an individual's own same-sex impulses, whether those impulses are imminent or merely hypothetical. This threat causes repression, denial or reaction formation.[55] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homphobia Most commentators see broad parallels between homophobia and transphobia. Both homophobes and transphobes are genuinely surprised when they are arrested and discover their hate crimes are actually illegal. They operate under the assumption that they enjoy social approval for their hate crimes – itself a broad indicator of the levels of hate we are discussing. Another shared feature is that hate crimes can happen anywhere (from the family home to work, shopping etc) at any time and totally without provocation or even prior contact of any sort between TG person and aggressor. Perpetrators can have any background, with teenage/young adult males likely to be largest single group as well as the most aggressive/violent. There is a dearth of research into the causes of transphobia. Partly this is due to small size* and almost zero political influence of the TG community. Another factor is that there is virtually no dispute among (non-medical) professionals in the area over this issue. The general perspective I presented in post #212 above is pretty much the consensus. (There is some variation about weighting given to the various social/ideological and personal factors) A third factor is that most orthodox (medical) research has gone into a failed project to identify the ‘causes’ of TG behaviours/identities which ignores transphobia. The only contrary view to this consensus I have ever encountered is the bigot’s own “hate is natural’ argument. This is the notion that it is natural to reject/hate people on account of their difference. This notion is discredited in racism, sexism and other social phobias and I see no reason why it might apply here. I often meet people – invariably males - who are sceptical about the levels of hate and violence against TGs. I always challenge them to find out for themselves and offer to accompany them for a night on the town if they put on a frock and heels. No one has ever accepted the challenge. Nor would I suggest any one even think about it unless they happen to possess Chuck Norris level self defence skills and a considerable armoury. * most estimates are TG numbers are c10% of gay & lesbian numbers. These are estimates and there are no reliable figures available anywhere AFAIK

GotSteel -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/30/2011 6:51:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl DO I think they are the majority? No. I do believe its far greater than 1 percent of the population. We're on the same page then, I think we're just quibbling over what the word uncommon means.

GotSteel -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/30/2011 6:59:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle This brings up the question of why transgenders are subjected to the relentless persecution they are by many sections of the community - including those whose own experience of oppression ought to generate some solidarity or empathy. It saddens me to note that some feminists are among the worst offenders here.* Why do so many people put so much energy into judging and policing others' genders, and punishing those who fail to meet whatever (invariably flawed) standard they apply? You would think but time and again collarme has shown that we as a community have the tenancy to be extremely judgmental about each other.

GotSteel -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/30/2011 7:12:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The fear of being identified as gay can be considered as a form of social homophobia. Theorists including Calvin Thomas and Judith Butler have suggested that homophobia can be rooted in an individual's fear of being identified as gay. Homophobia in men is correlated with insecurity about masculinity. [...] Nancy J. Chodorow states that homophobia can be viewed as a method of protection of male masculinity.[54] Various psychoanalytic theories explain homophobia as a threat to an individual's own same-sex impulses, whether those impulses are imminent or merely hypothetical. This threat causes repression, denial or reaction formation.[55] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homphobia Oh I remember that social movement, that's completely different than secret gay tendencies. That was about fear of being heckled by your peer group.

GotSteel -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/30/2011 7:20:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I don't believe there is any fear involved... it just gives many the creeps thinking or seeing intimacy among the same sex. I think that's talking about something different. I don't want to watch gay men have sex, I also don't want to watch my parents have sex. Now I certainly don't have a problem with the existence of my parents, I very much like that they exist and have the utmost respect for them. We're not talking about people who don't want to watch gay sex we're talking about people don't want homosexuals to exist.

xssve -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/30/2011 7:21:26 AM)
I've discussed the phenomena of gender, uh... jingoism in other threads on other sites, there are a lot of possible variables, misogyny as I mentioned, i.e., feminized males may serve as a convenient socially acceptable proxy target for aggressive feelings towards women. Homosexuals (and prostitutes) are also favored targets of psychopaths, serial killers, etc., simply because they're less likely to be missed, i.e., social outcasts, fewer people watching out for them, and therefore simply more convenient targets, but I think much of it has to do with gender politics in general, I don't know that it was the problem it is now even 50 year ago, there is not a lot of history of violence against "gender offenders" that I've found, it actually seems to be a more recent development in the last 20 years or so. I recall gay men catching some shit when I was younger, but mostly just gossip, and that was among the "squares" in a very uptight, conservative community, I don't recall anybody being beaten up, or there being anything like the virulent hatred you see now. Sometimes I think there's just people need somebody to hate.

xssve -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/30/2011 7:37:45 AM)
Hatred is a very handy and potent political too, it galvanizes the centripetal defensive response, so if I was looking for the root cause, I'd start with identity politics - hence the reputation for hypocrisy on the right, it's not a "core value" they're as statistically likely to be gay or anything else as anybody else (in fact, when it comes to kink in general, the ratio is slightly in favor of conservatives according to the Janus report), but it's convenient hot button issue to rile up socially conservative, particularly religious conservative voters who don't understand they're being played.

GotSteel -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/30/2011 10:54:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve I've discussed the phenomena of gender, uh... jingoism in other threads on other sites, there are a lot of possible variables, misogyny as I mentioned, i.e., feminized males may serve as a convenient socially acceptable proxy target for aggressive feelings towards women. Do you have any data that feminized males are used as socially acceptable proxy target for aggressive feelings towards women in any sort of significant numbers?

tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/30/2011 10:57:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl DO I think they are the majority? No. I do believe its far greater than 1 percent of the population. We're on the same page then, I think we're just quibbling over what the word uncommon means. oh no, no quibbling [:D] Consider my post more of a musing on the subject.

xssve -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (1/3/2012 6:23:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: xssve I've discussed the phenomena of gender, uh... jingoism in other threads on other sites, there are a lot of possible variables, misogyny as I mentioned, i.e., feminized males may serve as a convenient socially acceptable proxy target for aggressive feelings towards women. Do you have any data that feminized males are used as socially acceptable proxy target for aggressive feelings towards women in any sort of significant numbers? No data no, just a hunch - in my experience violently homophobic males tend to have either have issues with women, and/or put them on a pedestal - and they all seem to be anti-feminist - i.e., these are all symptomatic of the idea that women should "know their place". I think the two go hand in hand, although being a male supremacist is not necessarily indicative of homophobia, I've know a lot of naturally dominant straight males who were not overtly homophobic. Presumably a confidently straight male would spend more time and energy pursuing the object of his affections than taking out his frustrations on a proxy - i.e, there clearly are some kind of frustrations at work in homophobia, and 9 times out of 10 the violently homophobic male doesn't have a girlfriend, I don't think its really an attractive quality even to women. The other theory being that homophobia is a reaction formation to suppressed homoerotic impulses in the person themselves - in fact this is the original clinical definition of homophobia, which is the act of externalizing and punishing homoerotic feelings in oneself, a scapegoat effect, which would tally with a fear of women on some level. Granted, a fear of women is not exactly the same thing as latent homosexuality, and neither quite work when it's women being homophobic as in this case. Essentially, it's a form of bullying, which is usually a way to get attention and/or social acceptance from an ingroup by persecuting an outgroup, and really you don't need any more complicated explanation than the fact that homosexuals are perceived as weak, and are overall, easier targets, a socially quasi-acceptable target for any and all kinds of overreaction, but I believe there may be several overlapping neurosis at work, there are people who are genuinely hysterical on the subject, but they are all subject to political manipulation, such as why they are perceived as "socially acceptable" targets to begin with, i.e., that has to do with institutional values, and institutional values are invariably about politics.

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