RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid

Message

Aswad -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (1/3/2012 3:01:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl But, does it give them the creeps because its just how they feel... or because its how they think they are supposed to feel... [;)] Interesting question. I don't get the creeps, most of the time, but it happens occasionally. Would be interesting to know. The topic came up in connection with a friend asking about a threesome, and when the prospect of getting blown by him came up, I did notice a certain reluctance in myself, and some apprehension about whether that might ruin it for me. So I turned it down, because I didn't want to risk having an adverse reaction to it that might negatively influence our regular social interactions. It might be interesting to check it out at some point, if only to learn more about how I tick, but I am not so penile retentive as to risk an otherwise good friendship to find out. I can see myself putting the malesub in an F/m couple to such use in the right setting, but I'm not certain whether that's a matter of the 'sub' category taking precedence over the gender category, or a matter of the sub effectively being a proxy agent as in non-contact sex, or even something so banal as the 'sub' part removing some aspect of competitiveness that goes deeper. I have more difficulty envisaging a similar thing with the malesub in an M/m couple, so interpreting it as being related to proxying seems most likely, though it doesn't exactly invoke the same degree of reluctance as did the offer from the straight switch friend that was single at the time. Again, potentially interesting to check out, but it isn't exactly an opportunity that pops up all the time. Also, there's this whole religious side of the issue, for me. I consciously know that my own interpretation is that the Abrahamic prohibitions on same sex contact are part of an outdated measure to enforce separation between the Jewish people and the surrounding Canaanitic culture (which embraced a very wide range of sex, some of it even beyond the limits of the TOS to discuss). However, the influences from before reevaluating it all are noticeably still present, and obviously part of me wants to "hedge the bets" as a consequence of the manner in which that faith is usually taught. Incidentally, lesbians do face some of the same issues gay men do when dealing with men, though I get the impression it's more of a problem that men don't respect the distinction between a bisexual woman and a lesbian woman, and that some even go so far as to assault them to "cure" them. What a ludicrous proposition, and how exceptionally tragic when that happens, but it's sadly a significant problem and especially so in countries with less legal protections in place. The actual girl on girl side of things is unlikely to offend straight men, seeing as it involves... well, women. Us straight men like... imagine that: women. Those of us that aren't fresh off the Stupid Factory assembly line know we're not going to be part of said girl on girl action, but conscious knowledge of that does little to dampen the appreciation for fine form and grace. Ironically, if the men around these parts are anything to go by, the average man wouldn't even know what to do with two women if encountering a couple amenable to the prospect. Still, in some places, lesbians absolutely face the same reactions and problems from straight men that the gay men face. Ughanda comes to mind as a supremely depressing example. Nigeria is a close second, if memory serves. Health, al-Aswad.

GotSteel -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (1/3/2012 6:01:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve No data no, just a hunch - in my experience violently homophobic males tend to have either have issues with women, and/or put them on a pedestal - and they all seem to be anti-feminist - i.e., these are all symptomatic of the idea that women should "know their place". I think the two go hand in hand, although being a male supremacist is not necessarily indicative of homophobia, I've know a lot of naturally dominant straight males who were not overtly homophobic. If we're talking about the stereotypical one true way american. For that particular sort of conservative I would expect to find a correlation between being anti-gay and anti-feminist, however I'd also expect them to more likely be anti-muslim and anti-mexican. Furthermore I don't see any more reason to think that they are using "feminized males" as a proxy target for aggressive feelings towards women than I do that they are using muslims as a proxy target for aggressive feelings towards women.

tweakabelle -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (1/3/2012 8:39:56 PM)
quote: Interesting question. I don't get the creeps, most of the time, but it happens occasionally. Would be interesting to know. The topic came up in connection with a friend asking about a threesome, and when the prospect of getting blown by him came up, I did notice a certain reluctance in myself, and some apprehension about whether that might ruin it for me. So I turned it down, because I didn't want to risk having an adverse reaction to it that might negatively influence our regular social interactions. It might be interesting to check it out at some point, if only to learn more about how I tick, but I am not so penile retentive as to risk an otherwise good friendship to find out. I can see myself putting the malesub in an F/m couple to such use in the right setting, but I'm not certain whether that's a matter of the 'sub' category taking precedence over the gender category, or a matter of the sub effectively being a proxy agent as in non-contact sex, or even something so banal as the 'sub' part removing some aspect of competitiveness that goes deeper. I have more difficulty envisaging a similar thing with the malesub in an M/m couple, so interpreting it as being related to proxying seems most likely, though it doesn't exactly invoke the same degree of reluctance as did the offer from the straight switch friend that was single at the time. Again, potentially interesting to check out, but it isn't exactly an opportunity that pops up all the time. Also, there's this whole religious side of the issue, for me. I consciously know that my own interpretation is that the Abrahamic prohibitions on same sex contact are part of an outdated measure to enforce separation between the Jewish people and the surrounding Canaanitic culture (which embraced a very wide range of sex, some of it even beyond the limits of the TOS to discuss). However, the influences from before reevaluating it all are noticeably still present, and obviously part of me wants to "hedge the bets" as a consequence of the manner in which that faith is usually taught. Aswad thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings with us. I admire your courage and honesty in dealing with an issue that so many males seem to find difficult, with some finding themselves unable to address the issue at all. I found myself fascinated by your story. There was enough in your post to suggest that your position has evolved considerably over time. My impression is that the main drivers of this change were your honesty and courage in dealing with your needs, emotions, feelings and desires; and acquiring knowledge, thinking things through and then applying the lessons to your life. Your account suggests to me that homophobic influences can be addressed successfully if the person concerned has the requisite honesty, information and courage. This in turn suggests that homophobic influences are largely acquired from the environment, that social phobias that are learned can be un-learned. It makes perfect sense to me to assert that hate is acquired, that hate is unnatural. Are my impressions accurate? If you like, would you care to share the path you travelled over the years to arrive at your current position. Please don't feel any need to respond to this if you prefer not to. Thank you

GotSteel -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (1/4/2012 5:20:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Your account suggests to me that homophobic influences can be addressed successfully if the person concerned has the requisite honesty, information and courage. This in turn suggests that homophobic influences are largely acquired from the environment, that social phobias that are learned can be un-learned. It makes perfect sense to me to assert that hate is acquired, that hate is unnatural. I've got to disagree, hate is natural. Christ on a stick we're talking about an emotion here. I also suspect that the formation of ingroups and ingroup bias are quite natural to the human condition. The social construct is who makes the ingroup and who gets stuck being hated.

tweakabelle -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (1/4/2012 5:24:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle It makes perfect sense to me to assert that hate is acquired, that hate is unnatural. I've got to disagree, hate is natural. Christ on a stick we're talking about an emotion here. When was the last time you encountered an infant who hated? "Hate is natural" is a cop-out used by people too cowardly to face up to their own flaws. You can believe that nonsense if you wish. Please don't irritate me with it thanks.

xssve -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (1/4/2012 6:08:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: xssve No data no, just a hunch - in my experience violently homophobic males tend to have either have issues with women, and/or put them on a pedestal - and they all seem to be anti-feminist - i.e., these are all symptomatic of the idea that women should "know their place". I think the two go hand in hand, although being a male supremacist is not necessarily indicative of homophobia, I've know a lot of naturally dominant straight males who were not overtly homophobic. If we're talking about the stereotypical one true way american. For that particular sort of conservative I would expect to find a correlation between being anti-gay and anti-feminist, however I'd also expect them to more likely be anti-muslim and anti-mexican. Furthermore I don't see any more reason to think that they are using "feminized males" as a proxy target for aggressive feelings towards women than I do that they are using muslims as a proxy target for aggressive feelings towards women. Not necessarily, I'm not talking about verbal expression, in that sense, what you say is probably correct, expressed homophobia is just part of a larger set of prejudices and jingoism, I'm talking about acting out on that, i.e., physical violence - i.e., in terms of racism, there is a distinction between your armchair racist and a skinhead out hunting brothers with a baseball bat - to some extent, it's an age thing, the violent one is more likely to be young and trying to assert himself, find his place in the alpha hierarchy, the older one is just pulling the strings. I'm just trying to figure out what it is about homosexuals that's so offensive you'd rather beat one up than get with a woman, 'cause it doesn't really increase your status particularly, it's on the same abstract order as beating up women, children or old people, it's not they're some big threat - it's a question of opportunity cost that doesn't necessarily arise when aggression is only verbally expressed - you can always find a a woman who will go along with verbal homophobia (or racism), I've never seen one yet actually go out with the boys to physically harass random victims.

GotSteel -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (1/4/2012 4:26:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle When was the last time you encountered an infant who hated? If your list of what is unnatural is anything an infant doesn't do then walking and not shitting yourself are unnatural. This argument seems as unsound to me as saying that it's unnatural for an infant to cry because an embryo doesn't cry. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle "Hate is natural" is a cop-out used by people too cowardly to face up to their own flaws. I would be surprised if that phrase had never been used by a KKK member to justify their position but just because you don't like the rhetoric that said phrase can easily be used in doesn't change whether said phrase is true or false. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle You can believe that nonsense if you wish. Please don't irritate me with it thanks. Do you have any actual data that it's nonsense?

GotSteel -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (1/4/2012 5:05:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve Not necessarily, I'm not talking about verbal expression, in that sense, what you say is probably correct, expressed homophobia is just part of a larger set of prejudices and jingoism, I'm talking about acting out on that, i.e., physical violence - i.e., in terms of racism, there is a distinction between your armchair racist and a skinhead out hunting brothers with a baseball bat - to some extent, it's an age thing, the violent one is more likely to be young and trying to assert himself, find his place in the alpha hierarchy, the older one is just pulling the strings. My bad, I didn't think you were using the term literally as the conversation was about bigotry in general. quote: ORIGINAL: xssve I'm just trying to figure out what it is about homosexuals that's so offensive you'd rather beat one up than get with a woman, 'cause it doesn't really increase your status particularly, it's on the same abstract order as beating up women, children or old people, it's not they're some big threat - it's a question of opportunity cost that doesn't necessarily arise when aggression is only verbally expressed - you can always find a a woman who will go along with verbal homophobia (or racism), I've never seen one yet actually go out with the boys to physically harass random victims. Well, this would seem to be a little different than the transference of aggression we were talking about earlier. Also I'm still trying to find data on the relationship status of hate criminals. I'm hesitant to go very far with anecdotal evidence because reality doesn't necessarily fit the stereotypes. For instance I just learned something hunting for that data, women are more likely to commit domestic violence against their male partners than the other way around. I so didn't see that coming [sm=m23.gif]

tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (1/4/2012 5:10:55 PM)
quote: If your list of what is unnatural is anything an infant doesn't do then walking and not shitting yourself are unnatural. This argument seems as unsound to me as saying that it's unnatural for an infant to cry because an embryo doesn't cry. Ah, but you do teach a child how to not soil themselves, true? Children learn to walk by imitation, yes? Both of these suggests being taught in one form or another. Much the same way an infant is taught to like something, or hate something.

tweakabelle -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (1/4/2012 8:15:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle When was the last time you encountered an infant who hated? If your list of what is unnatural is anything an infant doesn't do then walking and not shitting yourself are unnatural. This argument seems as unsound to me as saying that it's unnatural for an infant to cry because an embryo doesn't cry. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle "Hate is natural" is a cop-out used by people too cowardly to face up to their own flaws. I would be surprised if that phrase had never been used by a KKK member to justify their position but just because you don't like the rhetoric that said phrase can easily be used in doesn't change whether said phrase is true or false. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle You can believe that nonsense if you wish. Please don't irritate me with it thanks. Do you have any actual data that it's nonsense? Rather than wasting everyone's time demonstrating that homophobia, transphobia racism etc are all social phobias that can be un-learned, why don't you study some successful anti-racist or anti-homophobic or diversity training programs? The success of these programs is itself compelling proof that hate is acquired, that it is unnatural and can be treated, changed and eliminated. Look at how the levels of both racism and homophobia have decreased in the Western world in past few decades. If hate was 'natural', and not a social phobia as bigots assert, it would be impossible for either/both of these phenomena to exist or be successful. Jane Elliott is one of the pioneers of diversity training and an excellent place to start your research.

GotSteel -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (1/5/2012 8:24:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Much the same way an infant is taught to like something, or hate something. Certainly children are taught what to hate both experimentally and socially. However, that doesn't somehow cause hate or any other universal human emotion to be unnatural. quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Ah, but you do teach a child how to not soil themselves, true? Children learn to walk by imitation, yes? I don't think that's what's happening. "Types of movement develop in stage-like sequences; for example, locomotion at 6–8 months involves creeping on all fours, then proceeds to pulling to stand, "cruising" while holding on to an object, walking while holding an adult's hand, and finally walking independently. Older children continue the sequence by walking sideways or backward, galloping, hopping, skipping with one foot and walking with the other, and finally skipping. By middle childhood and adolescence, new motor skills are acquired by instruction or observation rather than in a predictable sequence.[15]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_development#Motor_development The existence of a predictable universal sequence of events would seem to suggest otherwise. Certainly parents help children succeed and excel at these behaviors but I don't think that means that walking and not shitting yourself aren't exceedingly natural human behaviors. Here's another example hopefully it'll be a bit more helpful in cueing you in on what I'm talking about, language. It's natural for humans to speak languages. You can certainly take the position that oh say french is unnatural in that it's a human invention which needs to be taught however the predisposition of a certain portion of the brain and the existence of a language learning stage in human development would suggest that language is similarly natural to humans.

GotSteel -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (1/5/2012 8:31:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The success of these programs is itself compelling proof that hate is acquired, that it is unnatural and can be treated, changed and eliminated. No no not at all. It's compelling proof that what we hate is acquired, is unnatural and can be treated, changed and eliminated. Similarly what we love needs to be acquired, what we love changes over time and our love for something can be eliminated. But would you claim that love is unnatural?

kdsub -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (1/5/2012 8:55:13 AM)
These are interesting posts...Is it not a possibility that rather than always being learned that feelings are often affirmed if you get my point. Otherwise I believe there are some basic feelings in nature...one being the natural attraction and need for sex and a mate. I again believe that attraction to a particular gender is not learned but the propensity is a physical trait that can be influenced by social interactions. So rather than being a learned trait these feelings are often affirmed and reinforced by the majority as they grow into common social mores. Butch

tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (1/5/2012 12:11:21 PM)
The problem can come from looking at things from causative vs avoidance. A newborn may not like loud noices, so they will avoid them. That doesnt mean they hate loud noises. They are pleasure driven... more of the Id... it doesnt know good vs evil or morality... Love vs hate isnt even thought of yet. Someone who hates a group of people does so because they have been taught to do so. This is more of the ego centric when someone speaks of hate. The ego is that part which has been driven by the external world. I dont view these as the same.

tweakabelle -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (1/5/2012 12:26:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The success of these programs is itself compelling proof that hate is acquired, that it is unnatural and can be treated, changed and eliminated. No no not at all. It's compelling proof that what we hate is acquired, is unnatural and can be treated, changed and eliminated. Similarly what we love needs to be acquired, what we love changes over time and our love for something can be eliminated. But would you claim that love is unnatural? I'm glad you agree that phenomena such as homo- and trans-phobia, racism etc are acquired and therefore social phobias. For me the most important point is that we agree such social phobias can be "treated, changed and eliminated". The question of whether raw (undeveloped) emotions (eg. love and hate) are natural or otherwise is a very interesting philosophical question with important consequences, but way beyond the limits of this particular conversation and thread.

tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (1/5/2012 12:28:29 PM)
quote: Here's another example hopefully it'll be a bit more helpful in cueing you in on what I'm talking about, language. It's natural for humans to speak languages. You can certainly take the position that oh say french is unnatural in that it's a human invention which needs to be taught however the predisposition of a certain portion of the brain and the existence of a language learning stage in human development would suggest that language is similarly natural to humans. Languages are not instinctual. They are learned, mostly by repetition. Making sounds is instinctual. Deaf children can make sounds, but that doesnt mean they can speak.

Duskypearls -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (1/5/2012 2:43:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub These are interesting posts...Is it not a possibility that rather than always being learned that feelings are often affirmed if you get my point. Otherwise I believe there are some basic feelings in nature...one being the natural attraction and need for sex and a mate. I again believe that attraction to a particular gender is not learned but the propensity is a physical trait that can be influenced by social interactions. So rather than being a learned trait these feelings are often affirmed and reinforced by the majority as they grow into common social mores. Butch Interesting thought, KD, which leads me to wonder about genetically transmitted things like depression, etc., or how like when a transplant patient starts developing the same likes/dislikes/feelings of the organ donor. I suppose that technically, they're socially learned, once removed, as they're new to the recipient, but were learned/implanted by the donor, which makes you wonder exactly what is basic?

hausboy -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (1/5/2012 3:27:54 PM)
I've been following and reading this thread with interest. My parents offered my brother the chance to join the cub scouts. (he was 6 I think...I was 5). He had no interest whatsoever---I was dying to join. My parents were well aware that I was transgender at this age (as was I). My parents explained that the cub scouts were just for boys....that is, boys like my brother.. and that if I wanted to join the scouts, I'd have to join the girl scouts. I completely recoiled in horror. Even though both went camping, both did community work, both earned badges...to me, there was a world of difference. First, there was no way in hell I was ever going to wear a girl's uniform. (especially the skirt) and more importantly, I didn't want to belong to a girl's group, or hang out with "a bunch of girls." As early as 4, my parents were being told by the pre-school that I was socializing "improperly." The end result? No scouts, but my parents found a solution that I thank the universe every single day for: they sent me to a mostly boy day camp when I turned 7. It wasn't specifically a boy's camp...but it was a science and outdoors camp that was clearly marketed to boys. Out of hundreds of kids, there were a very small handful of girls, and so I could spend my summer in an almost exclusively all-boy environment. No "dress code" or uniform meant I could dress like all the other boys and fit right in. It meant every summer I had pure freedom--the only place I was miserable was in the lockerroom-- but that aside, it was chance to just play and learn with boys, and feel completely "normal" until the school year started again. It wasn't about doing boy's activities vs girl's activities--- it was the comfort of being in an all-male (almost all male) environment and the acceptance by the other boys that mattered to me. The only bad memories I have of those years was when a very bullying male counselor made his personal goal of the summer to remind me....and everyone else...that I was a girl. I feel for the child in the story--I promise you that the very last thing that child probably wanted was the for whole world to know.

kdsub -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (1/5/2012 3:39:51 PM)
I agree the hate part is learned...but not the aversion or repulsion to homosexual acts or acting as the opposite gender. What I am saying is the existence of this aversion and repulsion makes it much easier to move to distain and perhaps fear of being called a homosexual...Otherwise it is a special case with many different factors involved to produce sometimes violent reactions to gays and these actions have been acted out through history over and over...Even from homes and environments where there is no hate towards gays. There is a good chance for instance that your children or mind could develop negative reactions towards gays. Butch

kdsub -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (1/5/2012 3:45:41 PM)
That would sure be scary for me to believe... I have received cadaver bone for my fusion surgeries... Come to think of it I wonder if this is the reason for changing from very dominant to submissive after my operations....[sm=couch.gif]

Page: << < prev 11 12 [13] 14 15 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.046875