RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 7:53:17 PM)

Can a guy legally change his sex and then use the women's bathroom in airports? Yes. Who would know if he is dressing as a woman?

Or apply for aid/loans/assistance for a now woman-owned business? Yes

Can a business claim it meets diversity requirements if it hires five males who've done nothing more than legally changed their gender? In order to have their gender changed legally, it requires more than just their say so.



InvisibleBlack -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 7:56:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/27/health/transgender-kids/index.html

Apparently they do prescribe around the onset of puberty.


Ah, okay - I'm wrong. It's fairly new, though - the article says the clinic in Boston opened in 2007. Based on my archaic experiences from my wasted youth - it was extremely difficult to get any major procedure done as a child. When I broke my nose playing football at 15, the doctor suggested we wait until I was past 20 to have it fixed and the two girls I know who got breast reductions went through several years of ongoing arguments with physicians before going ahead.

Going through gender transition as an adult requires a fair amount of effort prior to beginning treatment, unless this has changed recently - I figured it would be much more difficult as a teenager.



tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 7:58:49 PM)

Girls are now getting all sorts of plastic surgery at 14.

But, yes, these treatments are relatively new. His clinic opened in 2007, so I would hazard a guess that trials started 2000? (My bad, his clinic was open when he wrote his research in 2004)


quote:

Going through gender transition as an adult requires a fair amount of effort prior to beginning treatment, unless this has changed recently - I figured it would be much more difficult as a teenager.


The Dr cited in that article also stated in a paper that he followed a group of 120+ males, at the end when they were 20, only 12% wanted to continue on with the surgery. He seems to implicate that hormone treatment is all that is suggested at this time, and that once the hormones are stopped, the normal development will continue.



InvisibleBlack -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 8:08:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Girls are now getting all sorts of plastic surgery at 14.


That's actually kind of scary.


quote:

But, yes, these treatments are relatively new. His clinic opened in 2007, so I would hazard a guess that trials started 2000?


That would make sense. The article isn't really clear, though - are they just prescribing hormones blockers to offset puberty or are they actually prescribing the full hormone treatment of estrogen/testosterone?



tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 8:09:41 PM)

Medical practitioners have to be careful with children with gender identity issues, said Dr. Kenneth Zucker, head of the Gender Identity Service in the Child, Youth, and Family Program and professor at the University of Toronto. Giving children hormone blockers to kids before the age of 13 is too early, he said.

Apparently just the blockers.



MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 8:10:34 PM)

 
Post till you're blue in the face... you were given ample opportunity to support your lies -- you couldn't. [8|]




tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 8:14:44 PM)

Im gonna butt in for just a moment to ask a question, ladies.

Bantha, you are asking... "should the rest of us have any responsibility to help you maintain that illusion?"...

In this, do you mean society as a whole should support her decision by keeping the other child excluded?



BanthaSamantha -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 8:15:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Im gonna butt in for just a moment to ask a question, ladies.

Bantha, you are asking... "should the rest of us have any responsibility to help you maintain that illusion?"...

In this, do you mean society as a whole should support her decision by keeping the other child excluded?


Which other child?



MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 8:16:17 PM)

 
Your OWN words were quoted... you've been asked repeatedly to support your false allegations... you couldn't/haven't -- you LIED!!! [8|]






tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 8:17:12 PM)

Well, MSLA stated that if a transgender child wanted to join her group, she would pull her child out. Your question, to me, meant "Sure, that is your right. we shouldnt have to support your position through exclusion of someone else"

I could be way off base.



BanthaSamantha -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 8:22:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Well, MSLA stated that if a transgender child wanted to join her group, she would pull her child out. Your question, to me, meant "Sure, that is your right. we shouldnt have to support your position through exclusion of someone else"

I could be way off base.


No, that is pretty much the sentiment I was trying to convey.

MSLA is welcome to withdraw the child in that circumstance; that's a parent's perrogative. The problem arises if, MSLA expects other people to support this position through acts or burdens on their own. I was not stating that MSLA was forcing such burdens on other people by withdrawing the child, but expecting more could place burdens on other people, much like in the instant news article.

As I summed up before, "You can leave the party, but you can't ruin it for everyone else."



tweakabelle -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 8:23:16 PM)

quote:

I'll go ahead and paste my original post, as you seem to be referencing some nightmarish version of it out in the ether somewhere. Having the original handy will help keep us grounded.


Would it help if I related the story of where a child was curious about the gender of an adult transgender woman that I witnessed?
Scene: a suburban house living room and verandah on a nice sunny day in Brisbane. About 10 women and an equal number of kids present. One of the women was TG, who had been brought along to meet me (I have a professional interest in the area);

The (TG) woman and I were sitting on the sofa chatting when a young boy, perhaps 5-ish, came up to us and asked the woman:
"Are you a man or a woman?" His tone and manner was curious - no more, no less. The TG woman smiled and replied:
"Some people are men and some people are women and some of us are lucky enough to be both"
Child: "Will I be like that when I grow up?"
TG: "Only if you are very lucky and eat all your veggies".
Child: "Veggies --- yuuuuccckkk!!!!" With that, he wandered off back to play with the other kids. End of story.

My feeling is that children are actually far better than adults at dealing with these issues. Children are far less likely to judge things for one thing. If the adults around a child make something an issue, then it's likely the child will internalise that as a problem. If the adults are relaxed, then there's no reason to believe that children will adopt another attitude.

In the case of the OP, there's no evidence of the girls in the scout troop having any problem with Bobby. But some of the adults clearly did. I find it cowardly that those adults chose to hide behind their children and project their issues onto an innocent 7 year old. Possibly the most likely outcome is that the children of the adults who behaved so badly will have learned how to hate. Is that what we want for our children?



BanthaSamantha -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 8:26:08 PM)

It does seem to ring true to life. After all, I've met many flagrantly racist adults in my life, but not a single racist child.



InvisibleBlack -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 8:32:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha
As I summed up before, "You can leave the party, but you can't ruin it for everyone else."


But in this particular instance, it was three scoutmasters who left the party - and likely ruined it for members of their particular troops. I would still argue that if you're a leader in an organization and you have issues with an action it takes, you still have the right to withdraw and let someone else lead your group or have it disband.

I agree with you that you cannot force your notions of correctness on external organizations or communities - but you can always not participate in them or go somewhere else.



BanthaSamantha -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 8:39:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack


But in this particular instance, it was three scoutmasters who left the party - and likely ruined it for members of their particular troops. I would still argue that if you're a leader in an organization and you have issues with an action it takes, you still have the right to withdraw and let someone else lead your group or have it disband.

I agree with you that you cannot force your notions of correctness on external organizations or communities - but you can always not participate in them or go somewhere else.



The three disbanded chapters were in Louisiana. Bobby's chapter is in Colorado. I don't think this situation and the situation of pulling a child from a classroom/scoutgroup are analogous.



tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 8:44:09 PM)

Bantha, please, dont... the Mods dont like it when posts are repeated over and over.



InvisibleBlack -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 8:45:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha


quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack


But in this particular instance, it was three scoutmasters who left the party - and likely ruined it for members of their particular troops. I would still argue that if you're a leader in an organization and you have issues with an action it takes, you still have the right to withdraw and let someone else lead your group or have it disband.

I agree with you that you cannot force your notions of correctness on external organizations or communities - but you can always not participate in them or go somewhere else.



The three disbanded chapters were in Louisiana. Bobby's chapter is in Colorado.


So if they're so upset by the decision of the Girl Scouts of Colorado that they decide the entire Girl Scouts of America is ruined, they aren't allowed to quit?



MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 8:45:05 PM)

 
See... once again, your OWN words were posted... you were asked to SPECIFICALLY address each question/allegation... you didn't/couldn't -- thanks for proving once more that YOU LIED!!!  Thanks for playing. [:D] 




MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 8:47:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

... the Mods dont like it when posts are repeated over and over.



Can't answer the questions/allegations of their OWN words, so that's all that's left for that one. [8|]




BanthaSamantha -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 8:47:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Bantha, please, dont... the Mods dont like it when posts are repeated over and over.


Yeah, tell me about it; it is starting to get tiring. But he keeps asking the same questions and I keep needing to give the same answer. I do have faith that he'll eventually stop and think, "Hey, maybe I misunderstood what that person was trying to say."



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