RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid



Message

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 8:49:44 PM)

 
See... proved yet again that YOU LIED. [8|]




tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 8:57:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha


quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack


But in this particular instance, it was three scoutmasters who left the party - and likely ruined it for members of their particular troops. I would still argue that if you're a leader in an organization and you have issues with an action it takes, you still have the right to withdraw and let someone else lead your group or have it disband.

I agree with you that you cannot force your notions of correctness on external organizations or communities - but you can always not participate in them or go somewhere else.



The three disbanded chapters were in Louisiana. Bobby's chapter is in Colorado.


So if they're so upset by the decision of the Girl Scouts of Colorado that they decide the entire Girl Scouts of America is ruined, they aren't allowed to quit?


Of course they are. I dont think anyone is questioning that.



BanthaSamantha -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 9:04:21 PM)

quote:

quote:

...should the rest of us have any responsibility to help you maintain that illusion?



1) SPECIFICALLY SHOW what "responsibility" you now have as a result of a parent's decsion not to expose their child to a transgendered person, as you alleged?


I am not alleging anything of the sort. I was asking if we should have any responsibility. I'm not claiming that we do have any responsibility, I'm just alluding that we shouldn't have any.

If you simply withdraw your child from a classroom with a transgender teacher, that doesn't put any responsibility or burden on me; I never claimed otherwise. I am saying that if it comes to the point where I have to bear a burden for you coddling your child, then I will not approve.

Allow me to clarify once again, I have no responsibility or burden under such a situation, but if I develop one, I won't like it.

quote:

quote:

...when you expect other people, as the people in the instant controversy did, to help in this coddling.


2) SPECIFICALLY SHOW that the parents involved in this issue "expected" others to "help" with their decision to remove their child(ren)?


(I went ahead and added the word "when" that you left out of the original quote. Removing it changes the meaning.)

While your phrasing of the charge is awkward, there is plenty of evidence in the myraid articles out there that demonstrates how those parents sought to place burdens for their decisions on others. They didn't simply withdraw their children from the programs like in your example. Take a look at these quotes from the articles.

"They resigned as leaders from Northlake Christian School and are dismantling their troops over the Girl Scouts’ policy." - These troops are now disbanded, forcing the other families to essentially acquiesce to their desires or rob them of an opportunity to enjoy the local girl scouts chapter.

"Susan Bryant-Snure is one of the leaders who resigned. She has three daughters among the 25 girls who had been active scouts there." - Note that this decision is to the detriment of 25 different children, not simply the three that Susan pulled from the program.




BanthaSamantha -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 9:06:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha


quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack


But in this particular instance, it was three scoutmasters who left the party - and likely ruined it for members of their particular troops. I would still argue that if you're a leader in an organization and you have issues with an action it takes, you still have the right to withdraw and let someone else lead your group or have it disband.

I agree with you that you cannot force your notions of correctness on external organizations or communities - but you can always not participate in them or go somewhere else.



The three disbanded chapters were in Louisiana. Bobby's chapter is in Colorado.


So if they're so upset by the decision of the Girl Scouts of Colorado that they decide the entire Girl Scouts of America is ruined, they aren't allowed to quit?


No one said that.



tweakabelle -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 9:23:29 PM)

quote:

BanthaSamantha
While your phrasing of the charge is awkward, there is plenty of evidence in the myraid articles out there that demonstrates how those parents sought to place burdens for their decisions on others. They didn't simply withdraw their children from the programs like in your example. Take a look at these quotes from the articles.

"They resigned as leaders from Northlake Christian School and are dismantling their troops over the Girl Scouts’ policy." - These troops are now disbanded, forcing the other families to essentially acquiesce to their desires or rob them of an opportunity to enjoy the local girl scouts chapter.

"Susan Bryant-Snure is one of the leaders who resigned. She has three daughters among the 25 girls who had been active scouts there." - Note that this decision is to the detriment of 25 different children, not simply the three that Susan pulled from the program.


I'm interpreting your post as suggesting that the parents that withdrew acted in a selfish and irresponsible manner. If that reading is correct, I can only agree.

It appears to be the case that the Girl Scout organisation policy is accepting and tolerant:
"Added Rachelle Trujillo, vice president for communications of the Colorado Girl Scouts: "If a child is living as a girl, that's good enough for us. We don't require any proof of gender." OP
It seems to me incumbent on parents to familiarise themselves with the policies of an organisation before they participate in that organisation in the first place. Which makes the withdrawal even more questionable. Going public and turning the whole thing into a political issue reinforces this view.

So it seems to me that the problems lie with the parents who chose to withdraw, and then chose to turn their resignations into a public drama. They made the errors yet they're trying to get poor Bobby into the firing line for their mistakes, and possibly their bigotry too.

I find it hard to see anything defensible in any of that - regardless of the transgender issues.



MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 9:40:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha

quote:

quote:

...should the rest of us have any responsibility to help you maintain that illusion?



1) SPECIFICALLY SHOW what "responsibility" you now have as a result of a parent's decsion not to expose their child to a transgendered person, as you alleged?


I am not alleging anything of the sort. I was asking if we should have any responsibility.



And I've REPEATEDLY asked you what fictional "responsibility" you or ANYONE would have as a result of a parent's decsion not to expose their child to a transgendered person?!!  Your question is NONSENSICAL if said parent's decision results in ZERO "responsibility" for anyone else.  So show what "responsibility" ANYONE would now incur as a result of a parent choosing not to expose their child to a transgendered person?!!


quote:

quote:

quote:

...when you expect other people, as the people in the instant controversy did, to help in this coddling.


2) SPECIFICALLY SHOW that the parents involved in this issue "expected" others to "help" with their decision to remove their child(ren)?


...there is plenty of evidence in the myraid articles out there that demonstrates how those parents sought to place burdens for their decisions on others.



You're LYING yet again... you stated these parents "expected" others to "help" -- and now you're changing your story to parents allegedly seeking to "burden" others. YOU'RE LYING!!!

Now, on to the quotes YOU provided:

"They resigned as leaders from Northlake Christian School and are dismantling their troops over the Girl Scouts’ policy."

This shows ZERO proof of anyone who "sought to place burdens" on anyone!!! PERIOD!!!  It states they "resigned", nothing more... nothing less.  People "resign" from things (Scout Leaders, Jobs, Bowling Teams, etc.) every flippin' day of the week -- it doesn't mean they SEEK to "burden" anyone... that's yet another nonsensical assumption on your part.
 

"Susan Bryant-Snure is one of the leaders who resigned. She has three daughters among the 25 girls who had been active scouts there."

Again, so-flippin'-what?!!  She has every right to resign and remove her daughters -- that is ZERO proof of anyone who "sought to place burdens" on anyone!!!  Again, that's yet another nonsensical assumption on your part.

Thus, the quotes YOU provided show ZERO EVIDENCE to support your LIE that anyone "sought to burden" anyone -- that's just your nonsensical assumption.  Provide a quote where one of the Scout Leaders SPECIFICALLY STATES their decision to reseign was rooted in their desire to "burden" others.  If you can't, your allegation is a LIE!!! 

[8|]




Jaquin -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 10:20:52 PM)

What happened is a sad show for not only society but Christianity.  Being both, Christian and Transgendered, myself I know darn well from my own experiences that the actions of those woman and the fallout from their actions does not - and should not be allowed to by the shrouded desires of those who just want ammo to throw at Christianity or religion in general - speak for what Christians all feel.



MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 11:31:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaquin

What happened is a sad show for not only society but Christianity.



You are certainly entitled to your view, just as parents are entitled to what they wish to expose their children to.  As a Christian, myself, I could care less if you want to dress like a man, a woman, or a turtle, for that matter -- but I'm an ADULT.  Teh wittle-ones, on the other hand, are exposed to what I decide... PERIOD -- not you... the Pope... the school... or anyone else, for that matter.  That's neither "sad" or "un-Christian"... it's a parental decision.




MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 11:57:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I find it cowardly that those adults chose to hide behind their children and project their issues onto an innocent 7 year old.



Out of curiosity, do you find this gay parent equally "cowardly" for "hiding behind" an "innocent 8 year old" to "project her issues"?!!

Video --> http://youtu.be/2K8CGeC2M_U




tweakabelle -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 2:52:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I find it cowardly that those adults chose to hide behind their children and project their issues onto an innocent 7 year old.



Out of curiosity, do you find this gay parent equally "cowardly" for "hiding behind" an "innocent 8 year old" to "project her issues"?!!

Video --> http://youtu.be/2K8CGeC2M_U


In post #93 I wondered if you were "stretching things somewhat to worry about events that may or may not happen 10 years into the future, events that will most likely be impossible". If you believe that link compares to the Op, then I'm going to start wondering if "stretching things" is a lifestyle for you.

I'd heard that the mother (of the young boy in the linked vid) got cold feet waiting in the queue and wanted to pull out completely. Her little boy insisted on staying on and delivering a message of tolerance to a bigot. So where you got the spin you're putting on that link is any one's guess.

I believe I did mention earlier that children tend to handle these issues much better than adults. Perhaps there's a lesson there for people who like to parade their intolerance in public. There's certainly a lesson for bigots.

Season's greetings. Happy 2012.



Kaliko -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 3:33:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Scene: a suburban house living room and verandah on a nice sunny day in Brisbane. About 10 women and an equal number of kids present. One of the women was TG, who had been brought along to meet me (I have a professional interest in the area);

The (TG) woman and I were sitting on the sofa chatting when a young boy, perhaps 5-ish, came up to us and asked the woman:
"Are you a man or a woman?" His tone and manner was curious - no more, no less. The TG woman smiled and replied:
"Some people are men and some people are women and some of us are lucky enough to be both"
Child: "Will I be like that when I grow up?"
TG: "Only if you are very lucky and eat all your veggies".
Child: "Veggies --- yuuuuccckkk!!!!" With that, he wandered off back to play with the other kids. End of story.



I can appreciate the effort to put a positive spin on something when asked this question by a child, and on the spur of the moment, well - what can you do? We don't always have scripted answers for every question asked of us by a child. But I would maintain that at 5 years old his walking away doesn't mean he has accepted it and is done with it. I mean, that is quite a confusing thing to say to a kid. It was nothing to talk further on, of course. In a case like that I follow the lead of the child, and if he walked away, then he was obviously done talking about it at that moment. But silence on a topic doesn't necessarily mean understanding and/or acceptance. That can be a dangerous assumption to make with children.

But even besides that, yikes! I cringed at the thought that the poor kid then learned to equate eating vegetables with becoming a man/woman. It's bad enough trying to get a kid to eat broccoli!



DaddySatyr -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 3:55:55 AM)

I think we're still kind of glossing over that a seven year old's decision is being elevated to one that some believe should be a guiding factor for our way of life.

If we're looking at just this issue, I think one has to factor that into the equation.

We espouse a lifestyle where a good portion of submissives would agree with the statement: "I just can't submit to someone considerably younger than I because they lack the life experience that I think would instill confidence in their decisions". How, then, can we allow a seven year old to make a decision that is a difficult one for an adult?

If we decide that we can agree that at seven years old, the child has the requisite knowledge, maturity, and experience to make a valid decision, we must agree that the child has the same three qualities that would allow them to live with the fall-out of their decision. We can't say: "Well, they're old enough to make an adult decision but we have to protect them from the consequences of that decision". I'm sorry but that doesn't follow.

I speak from experience. I had a 17 year old son that insisted he wanted to leave school before he graduated. I desperately tried to convince him that it would be a mistake. Alas, in this state, 16 year olds are legally allowed to make that decision. It broke my heart to tell my son that if he didn't get a job or enroll in classes for his G.E.D., he would have to leave. Coddling children doesn't do them any good. It only shows them that they can make irresponsible decisions and their "fixer" will be along to make it all better.

I find it kind of funny that this thread and another thread stand so diametrically opposed on this very issue. On the other thread, the behavior of college-aged young men is being discussed and they are being roasted (over-all) for making a bad decision.

I will say, again, that I think the parents are probably pushing an agenda, here. Whether it's overt or by the things they have said to this child, I think the parents' agenda is what has brought this situation to the fore.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



Kaliko -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 4:36:44 AM)

I agree, especially with:

quote:


If we decide that we can agree that at seven years old, the child has the requisite knowledge, maturity, and experience to make a valid decision, we must agree that the child has the same three qualities that would allow them to live with the fall-out of their decision. We can't say: "Well, they're old enough to make an adult decision but we have to protect them from the consequences of that decision". I'm sorry but that doesn't follow.


But then I start to wonder if the difference is that these children aren't making a "decision." If a boy only feels right when dressed as a girl, is that his decision?

I am of the belief that children should not be making this decision or be forced into taking part in this way in their parents' decision. But thinking about it further brings up more questions - it's not quite so black and white as I would like it to be.



DaddySatyr -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 5:29:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

I agree, especially with:

But then I start to wonder if the difference is that these children aren't making a "decision." If a boy only feels right when dressed as a girl, is that his decision?
I am of the belief that children should not be making this decision or be forced into taking part in this way in their parents' decision. But thinking about it further brings up more questions - it's not quite so black and white as I would like it to be.



I would argue that we haven't quite reached the point where we've completely legislated how people are allowed to think or feel. To that extent, I'll grant you that this isn't a decision. Maybe this child does only feel "right" or "normal" thinking of themself as a girl.

I'll grant that but, it's a decision to grow one's hair longer than a certain length. It's a decision to paint one's fingernails. It's a decision to wear dresses.

Now, I don't know if this child is doing any of these things but I was looking for behaviors that could be outward signs of one "living as a girl".

All of these decisions would normally be approved of by parents and I question the parenting skills of someone that allows a child so young to make these kind of decisions. Were I the parent of this child, I would have listened to their dilemna and been understanding but, I would tell them that the decision to act upon how they felt, while valid, would not be an easy path and that I couldn't fully allow some of the behaviors because being an adult, I know that they're heading for trouble.

Before my nuts get roasted: How many biological females here had a bit of a fight be allowed to wear make up or nail polish at 12 years old? How about clothing fads/styles?

I don't think that this child was properly prepared for life by their parents.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



tweakabelle -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 6:01:23 AM)

quote:

Were I the parent of this child, I would have listened to their dilemna and been understanding but, I would tell them that the decision to act upon how they felt, while valid, would not be an easy path and that I couldn't fully allow some of the behaviors because being an adult, I know that they're heading for trouble.


Reality check: Do you think for a moment that Bobby's parents didn't try that at first? And every other thing they could think of (and more) to try to get Bobby to see things their way?

And they couldn't ..... so what happens after 1 month, or 3 months, or 6 months ... or a year ... or two .. or three.... of constant tantrums alternating with total rebellion?

I imagine most parents would wonder if the decision had been for the best wouldn't they? I'd also imagine that the parents would be negligent if they hadn't sought out expert opinions for such a deep seated behavioural issue. And most parents would listen, take it all on board and then make what they felt was the best decision they could putting their child's best interests first .......

In a nutshell, that is the way these cases typically evolve, according to the literature.



tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 6:16:58 AM)

Imagine forcing a boy into a dress, day after day, forcing him to let his hair grow long, painting his nails, playing with dolls. Forcing him to tell everyone he believes he is a girl, forcing him to repeat that lie to teachers, family, friends, neighbors, doctors.



Kaliko -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 6:20:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Were I the parent of this child, I would have listened to their dilemna and been understanding but, I would tell them that the decision to act upon how they felt, while valid, would not be an easy path and that I couldn't fully allow some of the behaviors because being an adult, I know that they're heading for trouble.


Reality check: Do you think for a moment that Bobby's parents didn't try that at first? And every other thing they could think of (and more) to try to get Bobby to see things their way?



But he's only 7. How much could they have possibly tried to have gotten to this point by....7? Goodness, it takes me a few months to decide what color to paint a room. A few years, maybe, and they're already at 'Go ahead and join Girl Scouts?" It seems a touch rushed.



DaddySatyr -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 6:22:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Reality check: Do you think for a moment that Bobby's parents didn't try that at first? And every other thing they could think of (and more) to try to get Bobby to see things their way?

And they couldn't ..... so what happens after 1 month, or 3 months, or 6 months ... or a year ... or two .. or three.... of constant tantrums alternating with total rebellion?

I imagine most parents would wonder if the decision had been for the best wouldn't they? I'd also imagine that the parents would be negligent if they hadn't sought out expert opinions for such a deep seated behavioural issue. And most parents would listen, take it all on board and then make what they felt was the best decision they could putting their child's best interests first .......

In a nutshell, that is the way these cases typically evolve, according to the literature.


I am dealing with reality. Thank you. You're personal slight aside; I'll answer the rest.

After the constant tantrums, one continues to be a parent. Parents have authority over their children. The inmates do not run the asylum. Where does that idea even come from? Our job, as parents, is to educate, nurture, and (to some extent) protect our children from themselves as well as the dangers of the world in which we live.

We parent. We recognize that it is our duty to dominate our children to a certain extent. We don't acquiesce to bad behavior. We don't abdicate our responsibility in the face of a 5 year old's tantrums. We don't tolerate tantrums. They are not acceptable behavior.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 6:31:49 AM)

quote:

But he's only 7. How much could they have possibly tried to have gotten to this point by....7? Goodness, it takes me a few months to decide what color to paint a room. A few years, maybe, and they're already at 'Go ahead and join Girl Scouts?" It seems a touch rushed.


Yet his brain has lived with that knowledge for 7 years.

Its funny, in a sad way, that this is so hotly debated, the child's ability to know what sex they are when we dont question what sex people love.



Lucylastic -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 6:32:23 AM)

Seems a lot of the TG friends I have had over the years knew they were in the wrong body from a very VERY early age, but that wasnt their issue it was their parents response to it that made the problem worse during their growing up




Page: <<   < prev  5 6 [7] 8 9   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
6.152344E-02