RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 6:36:57 AM)

quote:

But he's only 7. How much could they have possibly tried to have gotten to this point by....7? Goodness, it takes me a few months to decide what color to paint a room. A few years, maybe, and they're already at 'Go ahead and join Girl Scouts?" It seems a touch rushed.


Orthodox gender identity development theory posits that the child's process of constructing their core gender identity is complete typically at 18-24 months. Once complete it is thought to be "fixed and immutable". The behaviour we are examining will manifest itself after a child's sense of their gender is fully formed. Attempts to change this have met with "limited success" (read: failure) and are viewed by medical professionals as potentially catastrophic.

So, in the child's mind, the decision has effectively been made long before the issue comes to any one's attention.

The David Reimer case is a well known example of the tragedies that can result from inappropriate interference in gender assignments by professionals.







tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 7:00:03 AM)

The David Reimer case is a well known example of the tragedies that can result from inappropriate interference in gender assignments by professionals.


Imagine forcing a boy into a dress, day after day, forcing him to let his hair grow long, painting his nails, playing with dolls. Forcing him to tell everyone he believes he is a girl, forcing him to repeat that lie to teachers, family, friends, neighbors, doctors.


Why is it that because they are young, people believe they can fuck with their minds?




tweakabelle -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 7:00:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Seems a lot of the TG friends I have had over the years knew they were in the wrong body from a very VERY early age, but that wasnt their issue it was their parents response to it that made the problem worse during their growing up



That's they tell me too Lucy.

Does any one else find it odd that we are discussing how old a TG child should be when they 'choose' their gender?

How old were we when we 'chose' our genders? Did any of us ever 'choose' our gender?




tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 7:02:21 AM)

I think that is the suggestion/belief tweak. That these children are confused, or are being pushed or forced, into making this decision. Or that its giving in to a temper tantrum.




tweakabelle -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 7:05:21 AM)

Like other boys and girls don't have their genders imposed on them? We all have gender imposed on us from the moment we enter this world.

The first thing that people say is: "It's a boy/girl'.

We get gendered before we get names.




tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 7:07:26 AM)

I had a mother who rejected her newborn because it was the wrong sex.




Lucylastic -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 7:12:55 AM)

my dad wanted boys, It wasnt until I took up birdwatching, fishing and canoeing and shooting, before I ever got his approval
He never once came to a dance recital( I started ballet at 3 and ballroom dancing at four until I was 18) or showed any interest in it, but when I decided to take up painting model soldiers(lead napoleonic figures) he took me to ALL the model shows in london for years running.
I adore my old man he was a great dad, but he really really wanted boys. I had cropped almost buzz cut hair for years before my mum put her foot down. I never wore dresses unless it was for sunday school, church or school.
Not that I identify with being anything but female, but wanting to be a girly girl was impossible in my house




tweakabelle -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 7:18:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I had a mother who rejected her newborn because it was the wrong sex.

I can believe that. The levels of ostracism in that community far exceed any thing else I've ever encountered

All I'm trying to say is that it's a place that none of us ever consciously visit so we shouldn't be too quick to make up our minds. And there's very little appreciation of the risks involved in taking a decision based on gut reactions. Lucy alluded to some of the milder ones in post #140.




tweakabelle -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 7:38:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I think that is the suggestion/belief tweak. That these children are confused, or are being pushed or forced, into making this decision. Or that its giving in to a temper tantrum.

All the literature suggests other wise. The children have a clear sense of who they are, that parents tend to accept the child's version of themself only when all other options have been eliminated.

To me it seems like common sense that if there is a deep seated behavioural issue that appears insoluble, that parents will seek some outside advice, preferably expert advice. When they do they'll be advised it's not a temper tantrum.




Kaliko -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 9:09:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

So, in the child's mind, the decision has effectively been made long before the issue comes to any one's attention.



The child's own gender decision has effectively been made...and if that's how it is, then that's how it is. I don't know enough about any of that to say whether I agree with that or not. I have to plead ignorance.

But my logical, parenting brain has a hard time with what to do about it.

What the child could not possibly have made a conscious decision on is how to handle the ramifications of having made the choice to present oneself as the opposite sex. That's a hefty psychological load that, in this case, the parents have made the choice for him to endure.

He may very well be struggling in a boys body. That he doesn't have a choice about. But to impose these types of behavior modifications on a child is a choice, and I can't believe that a parent would make the decision to allow their child to enter into such knowingly hard to navigate waters by age 7. It just seems like it should take more time before doing something so drastic. The boy already has some sorting out to do. Why add more to the plate at such a young age?

(And then I answer my own question and think...well, what if presenting himself as a boy was causing him more inner turmoil than presenting himself as a girl.)

I would call it an interesting conundrum, if it wasn't somebody's life and emotional health that we were talking about.





GotSteel -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 9:15:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
If you are running an organization for children and are admitting you cant handle the responsibility and develop ways to ensure their safety, then maybe you shouldnt be running it.


Well, traditionally a big way that our society in general as well as camping programs in particular developed to ensure their safety is not to have co-ed overnight environments.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
At 7, no. At puberty, why cant they have their own cabin or tent? I recall many camping trips returning to the cabins and barely being able to crawl into bed before conking out, we were just that tired.

That wasn't my experience, I only belonged to the Boy Scouts to go hiking and didn't even bother with the rest of it. We were constantly having hiking trips and the volunteers taking us on them couldn't keep up with us. We were always sneaking out at night for one reason or another.

Somebody was talking about a school camping trip that was co-ed. Yeah, we had that as well and a couple of my friends got kicked out because they got caught hanging out with the girls a few too many times without their pants on.

That said, I passed a number of co-ed multi-day hiking trips this summer which seemed to be working out OK at first glance and I suspect that co-ed probably, generally would work out with children that had been sufficiently educated about sex. That said I wouldn't blame volunteers for not wanting to deal with that when it's not what they signed up for, if that's simply what happened. If on the other hand we're talking about Christian moral outrage and judging a 7 year old child as evil, then yes I'd blame.




GotSteel -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 10:58:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Its funny, in a sad way, that this is so hotly debated, the child's ability to know what sex they are when we dont question what sex people love.


We as a society still do question that, I just had a very heated discussion with someone about how homosexuality wasn't a choice. I think that homosexuality is more excepted (to the extent that it is) because we as a society have had those hot debates for decades, have known people who have come out of the closet and are to a greater extent educated about homosexuality.

I personally don't really understand gender identity, as a child it was explained to me that boys have a penis and girls have a vagina. I have a penis therefore I'm a boy. So I can't say that I even remotely comprehend what they are going through and if I don't get it what chance is there that Billy-Bob three teeth has a reality based position? I think that a much greater understanding of gender identity is going to have to permeate our society before we as a society can even have a legitimate dialog on the subject.




tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 11:28:42 AM)

The mother of one MTF transsexual in London UK described her daughter's experience. She started to question her male body at the age of 4. She found the pubertal changes that started at age 12 to be intolerable. She started to harm herself and threatened several times to cut off her penis. She is now 15 and wants to start her sexual reassignment when she is 16. Her mother expects her daughter to still have problems ahead, but said that they would be "increased by 600 percent" if she had gone through normal puberty. The daughter has stated that "I would rather die than be a man."

Yet this is what parents face everyday. Not the threat of suicide because they dont have the boyfriend they wanted, or they didnt make the team, or they have no friends...

But because they were born in the wrong bodies.




tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 11:36:10 AM)

quote:

That wasn't my experience, I only belonged to the Boy Scouts to go hiking and didn't even bother with the rest of it. We were constantly having hiking trips and the volunteers taking us on them couldn't keep up with us. We were always sneaking out at night for one reason or another.

Somebody was talking about a school camping trip that was co-ed. Yeah, we had that as well and a couple of my friends got kicked out because they got caught hanging out with the girls a few too many times without their pants on.


Here in PA, we have many, even Jewish one And Christian as well.

http://www.camppage.com/summer-camps/coed-camps/coed-camps-tristate.htm




OttersSwim -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 12:18:48 PM)

At age 7....I knew I was not like the other kids.  I was irrevocably drawn to "girl things", I thought as girls did, reacted as girls did. 

At age 7 I knew with an unerring certainty that I was transgendered.  I did not know what it was called.  But I knew, with the same dead-level certainty that I do today that I was different.  I felt, thought, behaved and reacted like a female child.

Only after that was firmly and forcefully rejected in me, did I have to learn to "act like a boy", and hide deny and repress who I really was.

I remember actively desiring and wanting to join the Girl Scout rather than the Boy Scouts.




MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 12:24:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle



Yeah... I thought when the shoe was on the other foot that you'd change your tune -- a fine example of Liberal/Lefty hypocrisy, and bigotry towards those who don't share your view.  So much for "tolerance". KUDOS!!! 

Oh, and in case you missed it... the video CLEARLY shows this FILTHY COWARD of a supposed parent PUSHING her 8 YEAR OLD son, then saying, "Don't you have something to say... you can say it LOUDER... it's alright?!!"  Yeah... she got "cold feet", huh?!! 

[8|]





renaissancedme -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 12:37:54 PM)

Okay ... that is not a transgender child. Transgender is where you were one gender and then became another. He is still a boy. And, I think his mother should be arrested. Not for allowing him the freedom to choose, but, for trying to force the issue. He is 7 years old. It's not like he needs to be having sex, and it's not like little girls don't wear pants, so, until he is at least a teenager, preferably a full and legal adult, there should be no major concerns over gender issues. And, there wouldn't be, if his mother was not specifically signing him up for a girls activity.

Obviously, Girl Scouts are for GIRLS. Not for boys who may or may not decide to be girls later in life, but, for a very specific sex of person, which sex has been discriminated against and forced into roles of sexual objects since the dawn of time and still is, in all countries, throughout the world, including, in many, to the point of not even being regarded as human.

It is to allow girls a place to freely express themselves, to learn, to empower themselves, and being forced to have a boy around because his nutcase mother can't tell what sex he is on the outside, is just wronging the girls.

If the boy thinks he is a girl, maybe it is because he has a girl brain or mostly girl internal organs. That is not a "feeling" had by the "mother" but, is something that  can be found out through testing. Until that is done and it is proven that he is hermaphroditic, this is simply a case of a woman who wants a daughter and is warping her son's mind and making him hate his own gender, just to get her way.

And, I still believe that is true, that the mother is in the wrong, if he is later proven to be hermaphroditic. Because, it is not a mother's job to assign gender to a child. He is obviously at a very malleable age and she is the authority figure in his life, If he wants to play with dolls, great. If he wants to play with tractors, great. It means nothing, until he is old enough to know his own mind, rather than to be forced to accept what his mother wants.

This is an especially sensitive subject for me because my daughter has a friend who is a hermaphrodite, and his parents made an arbitrary decision, when he was too young to give them any input, that he would be a boy. And, in this case, they did actually have two different sets of genitalia to go by and everything, yet, they still made the wrong choice. He was forced to grow up as a boy and his life was miserable, because he was constantly forced to do "boy" things and dress in boy clothes, hang out with other boys, and take hormones to make him look and smell like a boy.

Now, he is a very sad young man, who wants to be a woman, but, because of all the hormones and surgery they performed on him as a child, he would be a very ugly, hairy woman, incapable of giving birth.

There is no call for forcing your ideas on gender roles on children to that extent. If you aren't sure, that's why they make t-shirts, turtlenecks, corduroys and lots of other unisex clothing, haircuts, etc. Let the child experience life a little and they'll figure out, based on their feelings,  and medical examination, what they are!




tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 12:46:22 PM)

quote:

Okay ... that is not a transgender child. Transgender is where you were one gender and then became another. He is still a boy. And, I think his mother should be arrested. Not for allowing him the freedom to choose, but, for trying to force the issue. He is 7 years old. It's not like he needs to be having sex, and it's not like little girls don't wear pants, so, until he is at least a teenager, preferably a full and legal adult, there should be no major concerns over gender issues. And, there wouldn't be, if his mother was not specifically signing him up for a girls activity.


You are wrong.

Transgender is the state of one's "gender identity" (self-identification as woman, man, neither or both) not matching one's "assigned sex" (identification by others as male, female or intersex based on physical/genetic sex).[1] "Transgender" does not imply any specific form of sexual orientation; transgender people may identify as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, or asexual; some may consider conventional sexual orientation labels inadequate or inapplicable to them.

Please dont make me pull up the expert sites. If you look back a page or two you will see the discussion about Drs and them prescribing.

quote:

If the boy thinks he is a girl, maybe it is because he has a girl brain or mostly girl internal organs. That is not a "feeling" had by the "mother" but, is something that can be found out through testing. Until that is done and it is proven that he is hermaphroditic, this is simply a case of a woman who wants a daughter and is warping her son's mind and making him hate his own gender, just to get her way.


A girl brain???? Hermaphroditic???? Hating her child????

Just to clarify, transgenders are not hermaphrodites.

I cant even read the rest of your post. This little bit is so full of bigotry and a total lack of understanding that its pathetic.

Dont start posting to a long thread before reading the whole thing. Gesh, this just keeps getting more and more rediculous.

I will address this point.

quote:

Because, it is not a mother's job to assign gender to a child.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

Read and lose some ignorance.




tweakabelle -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 3:08:52 PM)

quote:

But my logical, parenting brain has a hard time with what to do about it.

What the child could not possibly have made a conscious decision on is how to handle the ramifications of having made the choice to present oneself as the opposite sex. That's a hefty psychological load that, in this case, the parents have made the choice for him to endure


For mine, this is the best question to ask. It's pointless trying to identify causes, or looking to blame some one. How does that help any one? The more general questions cases like this raise can be examined elsewhere. This family has to live with this challenge. They can only make the best of what is in front of them.

So it boils down to two choices in the end - accept Bobby's insistence that she's a girl or somehow suppress it. Neither option is without risk.

Whatever choice is made, it's unlikely that Bobby's parents will be free from second guessing. It's easy to imagine their trauma when something like this crops up. At some level, they must be questioning their decision every day. Not an enviable place is it?

I would imagine that there are some pretty clear indicators that would confirm the correctness of a decision once it has been made. One could look for improvement in behaviour, emotional stability, whether Bobby's life starts to look like any child's life, social adjustment, progress at school and social interactions etc. It would make sense that if these indicators consistently show positive gains, then one would have increasing confidence in the decision that was made.

My feeling is that Bobby's parents have made the best choices for Bobby. It seems unlikely that they would expose Bobby to the risk of rejection (and all that might entail in this case) unless they were confident about Bobby herself and the decisions that had been made. It seems to me that they are guided by love, knowledge and enlightenment - and that's one of the best combinations for a child we can hope for, isn't it?

But as with any child, we won't know the full outcome until Bobby reaches adulthood and realises her potential to live a meaningful loving life as a competent adult (or not, as the case may be). There are no absolute guarantees of a successful outcome in any parenting are there?




GotSteel -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/24/2011 3:25:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Yet this is what parents face everyday. Not the threat of suicide because they dont have the boyfriend they wanted, or they didnt make the team, or they have no friends...

But because they were born in the wrong bodies.

I get that they are feeling repressed, what I don't understand is gender identity. I haven't found an explanation of it yet that I've been able to wrap my head around.

Maybe it's just that I need to meet more transgender people [sm=dunno.gif] It probably doesn't help that the three men I met who were dressed as women were all doing a very bizarre job of it. From things like very heavy poorly applied makeup to fairly high heels that they weren't actually able to walk in to in the strangest case a tutu. In all three cases it felt to me like I was an unwilling participant in someone else's kink as opposed to meeting a woman trapped in a man's body.

One thing I'm having a hard time differentiating is the difference between a man who wants to be a woman and say a man who wants to be a cat.




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