Iraq Trembles Amid Renewed Sectarian Violence... (Full Version)

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InvisibleBlack -> Iraq Trembles Amid Renewed Sectarian Violence... (12/23/2011 6:02:43 PM)

Iraq Trembles Amid Renewed Sectarian Violence.

quote:


A wave of bomb explosions sent plumes of smoke into the air across Baghdad yesterday, killing 63 and injuring 194 people in the worst violence for months. There is a growing sense of crisis in Iraq as the Shia prime minister Nouri al-Maliki tries to arrest his own Sunni vice president on charges of running death squads.

The threat of escalating sectarian warfare is deepened by the fear among the Iraqi Shia elite that the Arab Awakening movement is turning into an anti-Shia crusade led by Saudi Arabia and Qatar.


Apparently the factions in Iraq are already moving towards a much more hostile stance. Vice President Hashemi has taken refuge in Kurdistan and the Kurds are refusing to extradite him to the Shia dominated Iraqi government. The incidence of suicide bombings has increased in just a few days. There are already allegations that Sunni dominated Saudi Arabia and Turkey are supporting the Sunni minority in Iraq against the existing government.

quote:

Instead of stressing national unity,  Maliki has alienated the Sunni minority, who fear further persecution, and angered the Kurds, who form an essential part of the Iraqi government. Leaders from both communities have previously denounced  Maliki’s dictatorial tendencies since he became prime minister in 2006. He has also damaged Barack Obama who had been intending to emphasize in the presidential election his success in withdrawing US troops leaving behind a democratic and stable Iraq.

Maliki’s paranoia may have some justification, given that Iraqi politics at every level is very violent and no doubt plots and conspiracies against him do exist. Moreover,  Maliki, now aged 61, has spent much if his life in the Islamic Dawa,  the Shia religious party, membership of which meant torture and execution if unmasked under Saddam Hussein. Not surprisingly, the mentality of its surviving members makes them suspect that they are threatened by potential traitors.

Maliki spent much of his life in exile after being forced to flee Iraq in 1979 and lived in Iran and Syria until the US invasion and the overthrow of Saddam Hussein in 2003. The Shia hold on power on Iraq may appear unbreakable, but the community fears a counter-attack by its old enemies.


If Iraq crumbles into a bloody and violent civil war -
Do you think the United States will go back in and restore order?
And beyond that, do you think the United States should?

[Edited: Typos]




Politesub53 -> RE: Iraq Trembles Amid Renewed Sectarian Violence... (12/23/2011 6:07:40 PM)

Someone posted on the locked thread the average Iraqi has a choice, events patently show that to be nonsense.

All thats happened is one hardline faction has replaced another, and so it will continue.

I hope the US and UK stay out of it unless absolutely necessary, such as the situation we faced with Libya where a whole city was threatened with massacre..




Hillwilliam -> RE: Iraq Trembles Amid Renewed Sectarian Violence... (12/23/2011 7:06:47 PM)

I'm reposting this because when I posted it on the thread that is now locked, someone whined and I got a gold letter. I have hopefully taken the offending passage out and I am reposting



"Over 4000 of our youngest and finest died so that Bush and his friends in the AWWWL Bidness could make a few more Billions.

Was it worth it?

The people of Iraq aren't better off now than they were before. They've just traded one despot for another. Saddam's children used to kill them, now it's car bombs and unexploded ordnance.

There's over 100,000 dead and it will probably be 100,000 more before it's over with. Shattered infrastructure abounds, Fanatical Muslim clerics are gaining followings and the Iranians are licking their chops.

But that's OK. Halliburton made Billions and Rush and FOX News assure us that those poor people are better off now."



I removed the part about frightened kittens as avatars. I hope that was sufficient





Sanity -> RE: Iraq Trembles Amid Renewed Sectarian Violence... (12/23/2011 7:47:32 PM)


Its fine if a Dem president bombs away in other words

And you are mistaken, that wasn't posted anywhere

Further, its noteworthy that there was bombing and carnage in another Islamic nation today. Perhaps that's practically the state of normalcy in that particular region?




slvemike4u -> RE: Iraq Trembles Amid Renewed Sectarian Violence... (12/23/2011 8:40:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Its fine if a Dem president bombs away in other words

And you are mistaken, that wasn't posted anywhere

Further, its noteworthy that there was bombing and carnage in another Islamic nation today. Perhaps that's practically the state of normalcy in that particular region?

When this Democratic President invades a soveriegn Nation involving us in an 8 year war at an untold cost in blood and treasure(both ours and theirs) you just might have a point.
As it is ,he hasn't ,and you don't(nor,it would seem,do you ever)




tweakabelle -> RE: Iraq Trembles Amid Renewed Sectarian Violence... (12/23/2011 11:45:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Its fine if a Dem president bombs away in other words

And you are mistaken, that wasn't posted anywhere

Further, its noteworthy that there was bombing and carnage in another Islamic nation today. Perhaps that's practically the state of normalcy in that particular region?

When this Democratic President invades a soveriegn Nation involving us in an 8 year war at an untold cost in blood and treasure(both ours and theirs) you just might have a point.
As it is ,he hasn't ,and you don't(nor,it would seem,do you ever)

[sm=goodpost.gif][sm=agree.gif][sm=thanks.gif] However, I am concerned that you're .....[sm=banghead.gif]




DomKen -> RE: Iraq Trembles Amid Renewed Sectarian Violence... (12/24/2011 12:30:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack
If Iraq crumbles into a bloody and violent civil war -
Do you think the United States will go back in and restore order?
And beyond that, do you think the United States should?

[Edited: Typos]

When Iraq crumbles into a bloody and violent civil war-
It will be entirely our fault
And we should not go back in under any circumstance.




Politesub53 -> RE: Iraq Trembles Amid Renewed Sectarian Violence... (12/24/2011 3:02:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Its fine if a Dem president bombs away in other words

Bullshit, I have never said Bush shouldnt have gone into Afghanistan, you are just mischief making.

quote:

And you are mistaken, that wasn't posted anywhere

Thats a bare faced lie and you know it.
"They are free to choose their own destiny today " Guess who posted this ?

quote:

Further, its noteworthy that there was bombing and carnage in another Islamic nation today. Perhaps that's practically the state of normalcy in that particular region?

Not exactly something for you to gloat about though is it.




DaddySatyr -> RE: Iraq Trembles Amid Renewed Sectarian Violence... (12/24/2011 3:26:41 AM)

[sarcasm]It's true. No Democratic President has ever involved us in a long and protracted war. All of the wars that Democrats prosecuted were short and sweet victories.[/sarcasm]

How are we defining "long"? Our actual combat involvement in Viet Nam was (roughly) 10 years (1963-1973). While we had some advisors in Viet Nam as far back as 1951 (or 1952?), it was under Presidents Kennedy (to a lesser extent) and Johnson (to a much greater extent) who escalated our involvement to actual combat/war.

I grew up listening to body counts on the evening news. I heard all the rhetoric and my friends' older brothers came home, missing limbs, having holes in their bodies or didn't come back, at all.

I was for the initial invasion of Iraq because we were responsible for Hussein's rise to power (like it or not) and I felt he needed to be stopped. It's a shame that President Bush, the self-proclaimed "War-Time President" didn't bother reading military history and didn't remember the mistakes of the Viet Nam war that he grew up with, also.

Over the years, I have adopted a bit of an isolationist attitude. I believe that our only involvement in foreign sovereign nations is when they truly pose a credible threat to our national security. To my mind, neither the war in Viet Nam nor anything after the fall of Baghdad and removal of Hussein from power qualified as a threat to our national security.

It was not our responsibility to hang around long enough to insist that the Iraqis have a democratic form of government and I believe that if we had gone in and removed Hussein and gotten out, we might have been seen as liberators. As it stands, now, I believe that we have only given that region more "reasons" (in their minds) to hate us, even more (if that were possible).



Peace and comfort,



Michael




DarkSteven -> RE: Iraq Trembles Amid Renewed Sectarian Violence... (12/24/2011 4:02:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Its fine if a Dem president bombs away in other words



The problem was not with the withdrawal.  That was the ultimate goal of the occupation.  The problem was that the invasion occurred at all.  Astonishingly, we invaded another country with no idea what to do once we got in.  The original idea was that we would be greeted as liberators and children would lay down rose petals at our feet.  There were no credible scenarios postulated, no Plan Bs, nothing.

We had no clue when we invaded.
The occupation was simply a ploy to make it look like we had a plan.
The withdrawal was an acknowledgement that we weren't accomplishing anything positive by staying.

Withdrawing is horrible, but the best choice we have.




Ninebelowzero -> RE: Iraq Trembles Amid Renewed Sectarian Violence... (12/24/2011 4:06:05 AM)

Until WW2 Iraq was split into 3 countries under British control, Kurds to the north Sunni's in the middle & a Shia south, the old British Empire knew then what we are ignorant of now, that the 3 are warring factions with a millennia of racial hatred behind them. it is never going to get any better until a strong leader rises up & rules with an Iron grip. Oh wait a minute we just got rid of one of them.

Or just wait til Armoured Dinner Jacket sees a windo of opportunity & uses his revolutionary guards to invade. Then we get the pretext to start a war against Iran. Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.




Moonhead -> RE: Iraq Trembles Amid Renewed Sectarian Violence... (12/24/2011 5:18:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ninebelowzero

Until WW2 Iraq was split into 3 countries under British control, Kurds to the north Sunni's in the middle & a Shia south, the old British Empire knew then what we are ignorant of now, that the 3 are warring factions with a millennia of racial hatred behind them. it is never going to get any better until a strong leader rises up & rules with an Iron grip. Oh wait a minute we just got rid of one of them.

If it took a Saddam Hussein to run Iraq, removing him from power was a bit irresponsible, really.
It isn't like the US government is unwilling to deal with unelected dictators who find the notion of human rights innately hilarious, after all...
Shah Shah A Go Go...





Ninebelowzero -> RE: Iraq Trembles Amid Renewed Sectarian Violence... (12/24/2011 5:20:57 AM)

it's called realpolitik. I can't recall where I 1st heard it but the line. 'He may be a bastard but he is OUR bastard' has always been the order of the day




tweakabelle -> RE: Iraq Trembles Amid Renewed Sectarian Violence... (12/24/2011 5:23:34 AM)

quote:

Or just wait til Armoured Dinner Jacket sees a windo of opportunity & uses his revolutionary guards to invade. Then we get the pretext to start a war against Iran.


He doesn't have to invade. He doesn't even have to lift a finger. He's already running the place.

Yeppers. Armoured Dinner Jacket just sat back and rubbed his little hands while his deadliest enemies delivered the huge prize of control of Iraq and liberation of the Shia there from Sunni tyranny straight into his grubby paws. Gift wrapped. And now they can't get away from the place fast enough .....

I'm sure he's been pinching himself daily from Day 1 ... not quite believing his luck - 'cause it was never going to turn out any other way as far as he was concerned. And now it's all fallen into his lap without him so much as blinking.

So you have no need to worry about an Iranian invasion happening at all. None whatsoever.




Moonhead -> RE: Iraq Trembles Amid Renewed Sectarian Violence... (12/24/2011 5:25:27 AM)

Yep.
It's strange how moral issues rather than realpolitik get applied to Iraq, but not (say) Syria, Saudi Arabia or China, though, innit?




Ninebelowzero -> RE: Iraq Trembles Amid Renewed Sectarian Violence... (12/24/2011 5:25:33 AM)

I'm not worried at all. What concerns me is getting the Falklands oil & gas tap turned on ASAP.




Moonhead -> RE: Iraq Trembles Amid Renewed Sectarian Violence... (12/24/2011 5:27:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Armoured Dinner Jacket just sat back and rubbed his little hands while his deadliest enemies delivered the huge prize of control of Iraq and liberation of the Shia there from Sunni tyranny straight into his grubby paws. Gift wrapped. And now they can't get away from the place fast enough .....

It's fuck all to do with Ahminnedinnajacket: he's only there to make the Ayatollah look less like a theocrat. It isn't like he has any actual powers or authority or anything. He's the Emu to the Ayatollah's Rod Hull...




mnottertail -> RE: Iraq Trembles Amid Renewed Sectarian Violence... (12/24/2011 7:59:57 AM)

The Kurds have been wanting their own country for awhile like the old days.  It is not at all a surprise that they are acting as if they are sovereign and separate.

Unfortunately, Turkey has always wanted them under their thumb (they hold what?  around a 3rd of them like that in their 'area', (and no neo-cons and teabaggers not quite the same as us holding puerto rico in suzerainty...).  And if it becomes a licking the chops between our handing them to Iran on a silver platter (we do seem to have taken the role as  butler here) and then that area will turn into a three ring circus and wars  (thats right, count em, at least 3 separate wars, where there were none) and a fuckin NATO beef, which......hello all you chaps in London and outlying areas, are you with us?

Once more unto the breech, dear friends!!!  Goddammit.

*****NB:  I (and a host of others) said this is where we will be before we started that fuckin toilet............and that was another of the many certain outcomes that were roundly ignored by the same people who want another go at running our whole government again.



     




DomKen -> RE: Iraq Trembles Amid Renewed Sectarian Violence... (12/24/2011 8:53:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ninebelowzero

Until WW2 Iraq was split into 3 countries under British control, Kurds to the north Sunni's in the middle & a Shia south, the old British Empire knew then what we are ignorant of now, that the 3 are warring factions with a millennia of racial hatred behind them. it is never going to get any better until a strong leader rises up & rules with an Iron grip. Oh wait a minute we just got rid of one of them.

Or just wait til Armoured Dinner Jacket sees a windo of opportunity & uses his revolutionary guards to invade. Then we get the pretext to start a war against Iran. Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.

No. The Brits managed the country, called the British Mandate of Mesopotamia, from 1920 to 1932 as one country. they put in place the hashamite dynasty that ruled until the '58 revolution.




TheHeretic -> RE: Iraq Trembles Amid Renewed Sectarian Violence... (12/24/2011 9:52:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

When Iraq crumbles into a bloody and violent civil war-
It will be entirely our fault
And we should not go back in under any circumstance.



It must be the Christmas spirit, but I'm firmly in agreement with this. We shouldn't have gone in to begin with, and we certainly should not have left as we have, but neither of those actions can be undone. The failure of this administration to secure what little stability there was in Iraq will surely come back to haunt us.

Of course, just because Ken and I find ourselves in agreement that we shouldn't go back doesn't mean we won't.




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