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RE: Sign of the times - 5/30/2006 3:49:08 PM

petwolf22

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i could pick hindus or muslins or whatever...that wasn't the point, i was just picking the religion that first comes to mind to use as an example.

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RE: Sign of the times - 5/30/2006 3:52:44 PM

darq

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Well my answer remains the same ... I don't think it should be an issue. I think the name should be on the plaque, no symbol at all ... To me, adding the symbol, any symbol is almost like saying that he died BECAUSE of or FOR his Wiccan beliefs or Christian or Hindu or Muslim or whatever ... He died as a soldier ... It would make more sense to me to put the symbol of his particular branch of service.

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RE: Sign of the times - 5/30/2006 4:08:21 PM

petwolf22

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In a way he did die protecting his freedom to have that faith.

i think it will be a lot easier to argue adding the symbol of another faith then it would be to argue the removal of all religious symbols...

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RE: Sign of the times - 5/30/2006 4:23:57 PM

LaTigresse

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I agree it really has nothing at all to do with Christianity. While I grow more upset over the years at the organized christian faiths and do no even consider myself christian persay, I think this is a human rights issue. It is also another sign of narrow mindedness and intollerance of things that someone/s not familiar with and therefor uncomfortable with. Hopefully there will come a point in time that as human beings we can all be more tollerant of one anothers differences and then perhaps there will not be such a great need for such memorials.

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RE: Sign of the times - 5/30/2006 4:25:06 PM

LaTigresse

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oui, I believe that was one of the founding reasons for the United States......

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RE: Sign of the times - 5/30/2006 7:05:00 PM

fergus

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As a long time Wiccan, I will chime in with a few points.

1) Wiccan is not ancient
2) This is not about Wiccans specifically, but about many pagan faiths that use the pentacle as a religious symbol ... Wicca is just one of the most recognizable.
3) There are smaller, younger religious groups that have had their symbols approved for years now ... their requests have been made AFTER the first requests for the pentacle.
4) There is even an approved atheist symbol.
5) Abraham Kooiman is a highly decorated WWII vet buried at Arlington - He died several years ago. His marker still does not have the symbol of his faith (the pentacle). His wife Rosemary (a VERY sweet woman) has now passed. She fought hard to get it approved for him, but it was not.
6) The military has approved Wicca (and other pagan faiths) for dogtags etc ... but headstones is NOT under the auspices of the military - it is under the Veterans Administration.
7) I hope that Selena Fox and the family of Sgt. Stewart manage to clear the matter up before too long. He died serving in Afghanistan. Those who died with him already have their faiths represented on their tomb stones.

fergus

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RE: Sign of the times - 5/30/2006 9:22:10 PM

NakedOnMyChain

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Darq, the fact of the matter is that it does matter to his family. Obviously it is something that this particular soldier would have wanted. He may have died defending this country, but that does not change who he was. He deserves to have the symbol of his religion on his tombstone if he desired it. He deserves it just as much as any other soldier belonging to any other religion. He earned it.

Of course, his family is proud that he served. They are proud that he protected our freedoms. They would like to see those freedoms granted to one who died protecting them.

Also, typically the info on a gravestone reflects more the type of life a person led than the way in which the person died. A tombstone celebrates the life of the person it memorializes, not the death. Of course, the soldier who died in combat is honored for it, but the symbol of his religion represents who he was in life. That has to be extremely important for a family who remembers him, not merely for his service, but as an individual and much missed man.

_____________________________

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"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
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RE: Sign of the times - 5/30/2006 11:40:19 PM

SirKenin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060530/ap_on_re_us/wiccan_soldier;_ylt=AjwF8u.gzT.MLMlx.hRPlY9vzwcF;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA--

The Supreme Court forced States to recognize Wicca (and related neo-pagan traditions) as a legitimate religion in 1985.

Wicca is one of the religions you can have inscribed on your dog tags (so that if you are killed or incapacitated you (or your remains) may be handled appropriately.

While you serve in the military, they will make reasonable accomodations so you can practice Wicca. You can volunteer with the Chaplain's office to run events and services for pagans. You can have a pagan priest(ess) preside over your marriage, funeral, et al as a member of the military.

What's the problem here?

*meow*

The way I see it, the problem is this. It is not enough that people want to make up and practice some screwed up religion. They want to throw a wrench in everyone else's gears. Like the homosexuals for instance. It was not enough for them to practice what everyone else felt was immoral. They had to shove it down everyone else's throat and invade every institution in the country via a well formulated agenda.

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Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

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RE: Sign of the times - 5/31/2006 2:06:22 AM

ArtCatDom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin
The way I see it, the problem is this. It is not enough that people want to make up and practice some screwed up religion. They want to throw a wrench in everyone else's gears. Like the homosexuals for instance. It was not enough for them to practice what everyone else felt was immoral. They had to shove it down everyone else's throat and invade every institution in the country via a well formulated agenda.

You've got be to joking.

*meow*

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RE: Sign of the times - 5/31/2006 2:17:09 AM

Kedikat

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No problem I can see.
If they recognize one imaginary thing and give it all the official breaks, do it for all of them.
Just recognize that I don't follow these things and leave me out of it all. Don't expect me to change my life or support any of it with my taxes. Don't make laws for them, that I have to follow.
So I guess I have a few problems about all of the imaginary hooplah that is constantly messing in my life.
But no problem with all of them being treated equally.
Pass a whole bunch of indefinable, unproveable, unenforceable imaginary laws for all of them. If they believe in those sorts of things, they can just as easily believe the laws and special rights are real too.
I certainly don't condone persecuteing or bugging someone for their beliefs. But it goes both ways. Leave those who don't believe out of it.

< Message edited by Kedikat -- 5/31/2006 2:24:59 AM >

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RE: Sign of the times - 5/31/2006 2:23:25 AM

Kedikat

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[/quote]

The way I see it, the problem is this. It is not enough that people want to make up and practice some screwed up religion. They want to throw a wrench in everyone else's gears. Like the homosexuals for instance. It was not enough for them to practice what everyone else felt was immoral. They had to shove it down everyone else's throat and invade every institution in the country via a well formulated agenda.
[/quote]

Homosexuality is a religion?

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RE: Sign of the times - 5/31/2006 7:27:35 AM

darq

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I would simply like to remind you that it is not a tombstone that is up for debate ... It is a small plaque on a wall with many other plaques honoring men and women who have given their lives for their country.

If she wants a pentacle (or any other symbol) on his tombstone, I doubt she'll have much of a problem finding someone who'll do it. I'm sorry that she (and other Wiccans) feel targeted by this, however, whats more important? Honoring the man who gave his life for this country or honoring the man's religious faith?

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RE: Sign of the times - 5/31/2006 8:21:16 AM

ArtCatDom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: darq

I would simply like to remind you that it is not a tombstone that is up for debate ... It is a small plaque on a wall with many other plaques honoring men and women who have given their lives for their country.

If she wants a pentacle (or any other symbol) on his tombstone, I doubt she'll have much of a problem finding someone who'll do it. I'm sorry that she (and other Wiccans) feel targeted by this, however, whats more important? Honoring the man who gave his life for this country or honoring the man's religious faith?

You're missing the point. There are crosses, stars of David, etc on those plaques. Other soldiers were permitted that religious expression. The fact that Wiccans (and other neo-pagans) are not is discrimination, plainly and simply.

*meow*

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RE: Sign of the times - 5/31/2006 8:24:57 AM

fergus

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darq,

You are incorrect. The tombstone IS the issue. Service men buried in military graveyards are only allowed to have approved symbols on their headstones. The pentacle is NOT one of them, although it has been petitioned for for about ten years now. Other religious symbols have been petitioned for AFTER this and long since approved. Also, other people's religious syumbols are allowed on these plaques. So should ALL of our servicemen.

For those of you who think it is imaginary, or who think that they will somehow be forced to believe, I say that NO one shoudl be forced to believe ANYTHING ... but we should all have equal protection under the law. The 2nd amendment is not about removing our religious symbols from public life, but about the free exercise thereof. I would HATE to see one or more beliefs take precedence over others (including that of atheists ... who, by the way, have an approved symbol for military headstones).

Being a libertarian myself, I am also of the belief that citizans should be able to whatever they want in this arena, provided I don't have to pay for it, nor be forced to attend your pride rally ;) But let us have equal protection under the law.

fergus

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RE: Sign of the times - 5/31/2006 9:11:26 AM

NakedOnMyChain

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Fergus, I love you.

Anyway, this next is directed to Sir Kenin. I really, really hope you're kidding around. For the most part, I respect the posts you've made. You seem to be a fair-minded person, and I have to wonder where that came from.

_____________________________

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RE: Sign of the times - 5/31/2006 9:16:49 AM

darq

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I'm not missing the point ...

I just disagree with the point.

I think its more important that his sacrifice be recognized instead of being turned into a spectacle over a symbol which can be added later on when it is finally approved.

_____________________________

So you found a girl who thinks really deep thoughts ...
Tell me, whats so amazing about really deep thoughts?

I speak my mind because it hurts to bite my tongue.

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RE: Sign of the times - 5/31/2006 9:24:27 AM

SirKenin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin
The way I see it, the problem is this. It is not enough that people want to make up and practice some screwed up religion. They want to throw a wrench in everyone else's gears. Like the homosexuals for instance. It was not enough for them to practice what everyone else felt was immoral. They had to shove it down everyone else's throat and invade every institution in the country via a well formulated agenda.

You've got be to joking.

*meow*

No, I am not joking at all. Not in the slightest.

I am a Christian. I am not a very good one. I make tons of mistakes, but I am still a Christian and freely admit it. There is a difference though. I do not force anyone else to recognize My beliefs. I do not force anyone else to make any special concessions for Me. I do not want special recognition. I am nobody special. I am a humble man that simply tries My best to make My way through this mess in one piece. Heck, I even mess up in here, taking My frustrations out on people and sometimes simply being an ass. But when it comes right down to it, I just want to be treated like everyone else.

Not so with this Wiccan. Suddenly they feel because they have invented themselves a religion that they can elevate themselves to some sort of special status. They have a right to break all the rules. They have a right to spit in everyone else's face and put themselves on a pedestal. It makes Me sick to My stomach just thinking about it. They have the same rights as I do. Practice their religion in their own church and stop trying to break the rules. Can Christians put Christian symbols at that cemetary? Probably not. That was not stated in that article, but that would not make for a sensational news story. So yeah, I do not agree with her at all. If she wants to erect her own memorial, she is welcome to do so. Let her put it on her front lawn. She has that right.

As far as the homosexuals go, they followed a carefully planned, well thought out agenda developed by two brilliant men named Kirk and Madsen. If you want to read the book, which I read most of, it is named "After the Ball: How America Will Conquer Its Fear and Hatred of Gays in the 90's". It is available on Amazon or from your local library. It will be a real eye opener, I promise you.

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 5/31/2006 9:25:42 AM >

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

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RE: Sign of the times - 5/31/2006 9:33:14 AM

Emperor1956

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A few things:

Fergus:   Its the FIRST amendment that provides for the Free Exercise of religion, not the Second Amendment. The 2nd is that pesky one about raising militias, that leads us to all be gun-toting maniacs.

Darq: Its nice that you want to define what the widow sees on that "small plaque" each time she looks at it as a memorial to her dead husband. Perhaps what SHE wants to see on it is more important than your assessment of what matters? But then again, its apparently your universe, and the rest of us are only allowed to inhabit it, eh?

and Kenin, speaking of "eh", you left out the biggest group of subversive, sneaky, threats to all that is good and true and AMERICAN (and I mean AMERICAN, not NORTH AMERICAN!) -- CANADIANS. You people come here, take our cool air, steal our name, and invade our clean country music with the likes of ANNE MURRAY (need I say more)? Look, I've been to Ottawa and you know what I saw? KRAFT 'CANADIAN' SINGLES.   Its not bad enough that you people steal our stand up comedy (you know where Lorne Michaels is from?) and mispronounce the letter "o" NOOOOO you desecrate our CHEESE. Much worse than gays, or Wiccans, or any other subversive group. Well let me tell you something Mr. Sleeping Beaver...we are ON to you and yours.

(EDIT NOTE: I wrote this before Kenin posted his follow up because I thought that surely anyone posting what he originally said was being funny, or trying to be funny. I was wrong. He's not funny. He's a bigot. That he calls himself a Christian is a sacrilige...or wasn't it Christ who preached tolerance? So while I let my post stand, let me make it clear that I have no stomach for haters. They deserve the hell that awaits them.)

(oooooh   I feel so much better since I stopped taking my pills)

Love ya,

E.

< Message edited by Emperor1956 -- 5/31/2006 9:37:01 AM >

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

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RE: Sign of the times - 5/31/2006 9:33:37 AM

ArtCatDom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin
The way I see it, the problem is this. It is not enough that people want to make up and practice some screwed up religion. They want to throw a wrench in everyone else's gears. Like the homosexuals for instance. It was not enough for them to practice what everyone else felt was immoral. They had to shove it down everyone else's throat and invade every institution in the country via a well formulated agenda.

You've got be to joking.

*meow*

No, I am not joking at all. Not in the slightest.

I am a Christian. I am not a very good one. I make tons of mistakes, but I am still a Christian and freely admit it. There is a difference though. I do not force anyone else to recognize My beliefs. I do not force anyone else to make any special concessions for Me. I do not want special recognition. I am nobody special. I am a humble man that simply tries My best to make My way through this mess in one piece. Heck, I even mess up in here, taking My frustrations out on people and sometimes simply being an ass. But when it comes right down to it, I just want to be treated like everyone else.

Not so with this Wiccan. Suddenly they feel because they have invented themselves a religion that they can elevate themselves to some sort of special status. They have a right to break all the rules. They have a right to spit in everyone else's face and put themselves on a pedestal. It makes Me sick to My stomach just thinking about it. They have the same rights as I do. Practice their religion in their own church and stop trying to break the rules. Can Christians put Christian symbols at that cemetary? Probably not. That was not stated in that article, but that would not make for a sensational news story. So yeah, I do not agree with her at all. If she wants to erect her own memorial, she is welcome to do so. Let her put it on her front lawn. She has that right.

As far as the homosexuals go, they followed a carefully planned, well thought out agenda developed by two brilliant men named Kirk and Madsen. If you want to read the book, which I read most of, it is named "After the Ball: How America Will Conquer Its Fear and Hatred of Gays in the 90's". It is available on Amazon or from your local library. It will be a real eye opener, I promise you.

I have seriously just lost a huge amount of respect for you. Your posts for the most part have been well-thought out and intelligent. This line of reasoning coming from you is a serious shock to me. (Though that's my problem, I formed an incorrect assumption about who you were based on some posts in an internet forum.)

quote:

Like the homosexuals for instance. It was not enough for them to practice what everyone else felt was immoral.

How can you say that while being part of BDSM without feeling like a hypocrite?

All that being said, homosexuals and Wiccans are not asking for any rights that nobody else has.

Homosexuals want to be protected from discrimination like everyone else. When their pastor marries them, they want it to be recognized like when their pastor marries a man & woman. How is that somehow placing themselves on some pedestal?

Wiccans want the same right to display religious symbols on their grave and memorial markers than Christians, Buddhists, Sikhs and even Atheists are allowed to display? How is that placing themselves on a pedestal?

*meow*

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RE: Sign of the times - 5/31/2006 9:35:27 AM

ArtCatDom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: darq

I'm not missing the point ...

I just disagree with the point.

I think its more important that his sacrifice be recognized instead of being turned into a spectacle over a symbol which can be added later on when it is finally approved.

Being allowed to express his religion is part of recognizing that sacrifice. Others of myriad other religions are allowed to do so. Preventing the completion of his marker because his religious symbol isn't approved by some bureaucracy is an insult to that sacrifice.

EDIT: The only reason it's a spectacle is because the VA is discriminating against his religion.

*meow*

< Message edited by ArtCatDom -- 5/31/2006 9:41:04 AM >

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