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ORIGINAL: fergus

6) The military has approved Wicca (and other pagan faiths) for dogtags etc ... but headstones is NOT under the auspices of the military - it is under the Veterans Administration.
7) I hope that Selena Fox and the family of Sgt. Stewart manage to clear the matter up before too long.  He died serving in Afghanistan.  Those who died with him already have their faiths represented on their tomb stones.

fergus

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ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

Fergus:   Its the FIRST amendment that provides for the Free Exercise of religion, not the Second Amendment.  The 2nd is that pesky one about raising militias, that leads us to all be gun-toting maniacs.

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ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom

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ORIGINAL: SirKenin

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ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom

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ORIGINAL: SirKenin
The way I see it, the problem is this.  It is not enough that people want to make up and practice some screwed up religion.  They want to throw a wrench in everyone else's gears.  Like the homosexuals for instance.  It was not enough for them to practice what everyone else felt was immoral.  They had to shove it down everyone else's throat and invade every institution in the country via a well formulated agenda.

You've got be to joking.

*meow*

No, I am not joking at all.  Not in the slightest.

I am a Christian.  I am not a very good one.  I make tons of mistakes, but I am still a Christian and freely admit it.  There is a difference though.  I do not force anyone else to recognize My beliefs.  I do not force anyone else to make any special concessions for Me.  I do not want special recognition.  I am nobody special.  I am a humble man that simply tries My best to make My way through this mess in one piece.  Heck, I even mess up in here, taking My frustrations out on people and sometimes simply being an ass.  But when it comes right down to it, I just want to be treated like everyone else.

Not so with this Wiccan.  Suddenly they feel because they have invented themselves a religion that they can elevate themselves to some sort of special status.  They have a right to break all the rules.  They have a right to spit in everyone else's face and put themselves on a pedestal.  It makes Me sick to My stomach just thinking about it.  They have the same rights as I do.  Practice their religion in their own church and stop trying to break the rules.  Can Christians put Christian symbols at that cemetary?  Probably not.  That was not stated in that article, but that would not make for a sensational news story.  So yeah, I do not agree with her at all.  If she wants to erect her own memorial, she is welcome to do so.  Let her put it on her front lawn.  She has that right.

As far as the homosexuals go,  they followed a carefully planned, well thought out agenda developed by two brilliant men named Kirk and Madsen.  If you want to read the book, which I read most of, it is named "After the Ball:  How America Will Conquer Its Fear and Hatred of Gays in the 90's".  It is available on Amazon or from your local library.  It will be a real eye opener, I promise you.

I have seriously just lost a huge amount of respect for you. Your posts for the most part have been well-thought out and intelligent. This line of reasoning coming from you is a serious shock to me. (Though that's my problem, I formed an incorrect assumption about who you were based on some posts in an internet forum.)

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Like the homosexuals for instance. It was not enough for them to practice what everyone else felt was immoral.

How can you say that while being part of BDSM without feeling like a hypocrite?

All that being said, homosexuals and Wiccans are not asking for any rights that nobody else has.

Homosexuals want to be protected from discrimination like everyone else. When their pastor marries them, they want it to be recognized like when their pastor marries a man & woman. How is that somehow placing themselves on some pedestal?

Wiccans want the same right to display religious symbols on their grave and memorial markers than Christians, Buddhists, Sikhs and even Atheists are allowed to display? How is that placing themselves on a pedestal?

*meow*

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ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Well, you know what assumptions do, do you not?  You will quickly learn that I am My own person.  I do not follow an agenda.  I do not kiss ass.  I state it how I see it to be.  I do not ask people to like it, I ask them to tolerate it.  I have to tolerate you, you then have to tolerate Me.  That is how it works.

If you can prove to Me that any other mainstream religion is allowed to place their symbols in that cemetary then I will change My tune.  Until then My opinion stands.

As for homosexuals, I have absolutely nothing against them.  I hang out with them, drink with them, even make friends with them.  If that makes Me a bad person then so be it.  It is not the orientation I have a problem with.  It is the act.  I do not find it hypocritical at all.  I think transsexuals are great.  One in particular that I am thinking of is wonderful and makes a great MC at the events My wife and I go to.  I guess it is kind of a side note that she is very attractive and makes for a great singer as well.

However, desecrating the sanctity of marriage and other institutions are more than I am willing to tolerate.  It is funny though, the one's that I hang out with are not interested in forcing their lifestyle on everyone else.  They are just happy being who they are and having you as their friend.

So I ask you.  What is wrong with this picture?

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ORIGINAL: darq

Its not my universe ... I'm just tired of hearing people bitch and moan until the REAL issue is lost behind a bunch of BS. He DIED, not so he could be Wiccan or display a pentacle, but so that the freedoms that this country was founded upon would remain FREE. I'm SORRY that the VA is unwilling to allow his widow to put a pentale on his plaque ... But you know what? Whether that that symbol is there or not, his name being on that wall will mean that generations from now people will know that HE died for this country. Again I ask ... Which is more important? Acknowledging his sacrifice or a symbol of his religion?

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ORIGINAL: darq

I'm not missing the point ...

I just disagree with the point.

I think its more important that his sacrifice be recognized instead of being turned into a spectacle over a symbol which can be added later on when it is finally approved.

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ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Well, you know what assumptions do, do you not?  You will quickly learn that I am My own person.  I do not follow an agenda.  I do not kiss ass.  I state it how I see it to be.  I do not ask people to like it, I ask them to tolerate it.  I have to tolerate you, you then have to tolerate Me.  That is how it works.

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However, desecrating the sanctity of marriage and other institutions are more than I am willing to tolerate.  It is funny though, the one's that I hang out with are not interested in forcing their lifestyle on everyone else.  They are just happy being who they are and having you as their friend. 

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So I ask you.  What is wrong with this picture?  

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ORIGINAL: darq

Well, another way to look at it is this ...

Pagans have a variety of symbols ... Just like they have a variety of dieties .. So maybe the reason the VA is stalling on accepting the Pentacle is because they've got several different symbols being petitioned for ...

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ORIGINAL: Delightb32

This is ridiculous.   The widow does not have a "right" to anything.  The government is giving a plaque to a widow.  The government does not require the widow to accept it, nor does the government require the widow to be a certain religion to accept it.  In fact, the plaque itself can be completely free of religious symbols.  If I sent my Christian friends Hanukkuh cards, am I restricting their freedom of religion?  No.  This is a gift from the government, and the recipient has no "right" to demand anything of the giver.  If the giver of a gift has certain parameters for the gift (such as it can contain only 1 of 38 symbols), then the recipient should not demand those parameters be changed.  When a person receives a gift, they have no right to demand the gift be changed.  I am a Jainist, a religion which has existed since 500 B.C.  The American government does not include the symbol of my religion among the list of 38, but that does not mean I should pitch a fit.  That means I can follow the process for change and be grateful if I am successful, or I can decline the gift. 

Because people are bashing religions and there seems to be a Christian attack going on, let's pretend that I were a Christian.  If I wanted the Jesus fish on my plaque instead of a cross, should I demand and whine when I don't get it?  No.  I should chose an option or decline the gift. 

Please, people, try not to be so open minded that your brain shuts down and causes the neurons to suffer claustrophobia.

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ORIGINAL: Delightb32

This is ridiculous.   The widow does not have a "right" to anything.  The government is giving a plaque to a widow.  The government does not require the widow to accept it, nor does the government require the widow to be a certain religion to accept it.  In fact, the plaque itself can be completely free of religious symbols.  If I sent my Christian friends Hanukkuh cards, am I restricting their freedom of religion?  No.  This is a gift from the government, and the recipient has no "right" to demand anything of the giver.  If the giver of a gift has certain parameters for the gift (such as it can contain only 1 of 38 symbols), then the recipient should not demand those parameters be changed.  When a person receives a gift, they have no right to demand the gift be changed.  I am a Jainist, a religion which has existed since 500 B.C.  The American government does not include the symbol of my religion among the list of 38, but that does not mean I should pitch a fit.  That means I can follow the process for change and be grateful if I am successful, or I can decline the gift. 

Because people are bashing religions and there seems to be a Christian attack going on, let's pretend that I were a Christian.  If I wanted the Jesus fish on my plaque instead of a cross, should I demand and whine when I don't get it?  No.  I should chose an option or decline the gift. 

Please, people, try not to be so open minded that your brain shuts down and causes the neurons to suffer claustrophobia.

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ORIGINAL: Ankou

So basicially, the government, who Is supposed to support and abide by the amendments to the constitution, and the constitution itself, Is able to ignore our rights as people, and apparently, as soilders, to show and have our religion shown upon death of a cemetary marker? Wow, You learn somthing new every day.

This isint solely about the fact a soilder died, its about the fact he died for a REASON. The reason being to protect his beliefs, and the beliefs of others, such as displaying one's own religious symbol. It's sad that he cannot do this simply because they will not allow this symbol. It's not like the widow wouldint pay to have it added, it's just NOT ACCEPTED. See how I said not accepted? That means the military, or government or whatever, IS NOT ACCEPTING this man's religion and religious symbol, reguardless of who pays for it but allows others. That, my friends, IS discrimination.

-Jesse