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RE: The good news - someone will want to stabilize Iraq... - 12/30/2011 8:00:12 PM   
InControl754


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Kindly list all the things those infernal Iranians have done that earn Iran the fate of being bombed back into the Stone age - the strategy that has proved so successful in Iraq and Afghanistan. Please confine yourself to demonstrable facts (with supporting evidence), not imaginary events thank.

I'm sure the facts will speak for themselves.


They have threatened to close the strait of Hormuz. You'll be screaming for the U.S. to bomb Iran back to the stone age if you have to start paying $6 per gallon for gas, tweakybelle.

quote:


Unwilling to bend on its nuclear enrichment program, Iran threatened to block the Persian Gulf’s Strait of Hormuz should the U.N. move ahead with a new round of sanctions. Since about 20% of the world’s oil supplies go through the Strait of Hormuz, the U.S. considers any Iranian move to block international waters an act of war. European Union announced new sanctions after Tehran rejected a new International Atomic Energy Agency report Nov. 8 indicating that Iran was most likely working on its first A-bomb. Only 21 nautical miles across from Iran to Oman, the Strait of Hormuz is a vulnerable shipping lane, subject to harassment from Iranian al-Quds speedboats, threatening oil tankers on their way from various Persian Gulf ports. “Americans are not in a position whether to allow Iran to close off the Strait of Homuz,” said Iran’s IRNA state news agency.

Since the row broke Dec. 27, the price of crude rose two dollars a barrel, a fraction of a spike should hostilities breakout. “Any threat will responded by threat . . . We will not relinquish our strategic moves if Iran’s vital interests are undermined by any means,” said Iran’s Revolutionary Guard’s Brigadier General Hossein Salami. U.S. Fifth Fleet announced it would not permit Iran to stop passage in through the Strait of Hormuz.

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RE: The good news - someone will want to stabilize Iraq... - 12/30/2011 8:03:22 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Apparently she doesnt take a newspaper or peruse online news services


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RE: The good news - someone will want to stabilize Iraq... - 12/30/2011 8:04:25 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Pointing out how Iran has been on a war footing since 1979 is perfectly relevent

Dredging up far left talking points about Ronald Reagan isn't

Just start a new thread

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

You're the one who hijacked the thread to 1979. I was just trying to ease it a bit closer to the present.



So only things that make your hero look bad are irrelevant?

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT

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RE: The good news - someone will want to stabilize Iraq... - 12/30/2011 8:08:15 PM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		So you are unable to list a single thing that the Iranians have done to deserve 'punishment' from the USA. Am I surprised? Not in the slightest. Is any one else surprised? I'd be surprised if there was any one who is surprised.

So here we go again - another looney Right cheer leader demanding acts of war without being able to give us a single factual justification for using military force against Iran. Pure mindless aggression that will, if carried out, cost thousands and thousands of innocent lives and ruin many tens of thousands more ....... All for nothing..... a repeat of the Iraq disaster. The looney Right has learnt nothing from that debacle. Why let facts or people's lives spoil an insane ideology?

Utterly mindless, dangerous, senseless lunacy. Should we expect anything else from the looney Right? What else have we ever got from the looney Right?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/30/2011 8:10:12 PM >

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RE: The good news - someone will want to stabilize Iraq... - 12/30/2011 8:15:14 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

In Control

They have threatened to close the strait of Hormuz. You'll be screaming for the U.S. to bomb Iran back to the stone age if you have to start paying $6 per gallon for gas, tweakybelle.


Firstly bear in mind that these are words - not actions as Sanity was asked to produce. Words (belligerent or not) are not sufficient to justify military actions/responses.

Bear in mind that the eastern half of the Straits come under Iranian jurisdiction and sovereignty - it belongs to Iran. The Straits will be under closed only if further sanctions are first applied to Iran*. Belligerence? Hardly! Iran acting to defend its own independence and sovereignty? Definitely.

Once again Iran will not be the aggressor but acting to protect and defend its sovereignty. Your point doesn't work. We still are waiting for a single action by Iran that demands a military response.

*Iranian sovereignty may extend even further than half of the Straits as Iran includes some small islands in the middle of the Straits.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/30/2011 8:32:52 PM >

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RE: The good news - someone will want to stabilize Iraq... - 12/30/2011 8:42:45 PM   
Sanity


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I suppose that if one is desperate enough any propaganda that obfuscates the actual topic can feel like a "victory" but it would be nice to elevate these discussions above that, if you are able

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Pointing out how Iran has been on a war footing since 1979 is perfectly relevent

Dredging up far left talking points about Ronald Reagan isn't

Just start a new thread

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

You're the one who hijacked the thread to 1979. I was just trying to ease it a bit closer to the present.



So only things that make your hero look bad are irrelevant?

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT



< Message edited by Sanity -- 12/30/2011 8:46:45 PM >

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RE: The good news - someone will want to stabilize Iraq... - 12/30/2011 8:47:47 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


I suppose that if one is desperate enough any propaganda that's obfuscates the actual topic can feel like a "victory" but it would be nice to elevate these discussions above that, if you are able

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Pointing out how Iran has been on a war footing since 1979 is perfectly relevent

Dredging up far left talking points about Ronald Reagan isn't

Just start a new thread

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

You're the one who hijacked the thread to 1979. I was just trying to ease it a bit closer to the present.



So only things that make your hero look bad are irrelevant?

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT



You might want to look up the word "Propaganda". I'll give you a hint. If it really happened, it isnt propaganda.

Now please make an attempt to stay on topic for once.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Sanity)
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RE: The good news - someone will want to stabilize Iraq... - 12/30/2011 8:58:29 PM   
tweakabelle


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I'm still waiting for Sanity to produce a single action by the Iranians that might merit a military response from the USA and/or its proxies. Please don't forget to include supporting evidence so that we can verify whatever claims you might make, will you Sanity?.

I wish I could be more optimistic that I'm going to get a response this year. You see, I have a sinking feeling that changing the topic is Sanity's latest strategy. I would dearly love to be shown to overly pessimistic ........

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RE: The good news - someone will want to stabilize Iraq... - 12/30/2011 9:03:09 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
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Status: offline 		The problem now is their semi-annual sabre rattling over the Strait of Hormuz.

I have a feeling the Saudis have had a few conversations with them and told them that it isn't a very good idea to cut off the flow of all that money to the Saudi princes.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: The good news - someone will want to stabilize Iraq... - 12/30/2011 9:16:04 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		There's lots of theories and lots of words floating around, with far too much of the belligerent noise coming from the least informed sector of the political spectrum - the looney Right. One need only look at their horrific record of getting it so stupidly and abysmally wrong in Iraq to wonder why the looney Right feels it ought to be listened to at all.

I imagine most sane people would agree that some serious action(s) are usually required before military responses become a real option. Clearly when I say "most sane people" I'm exluding the looney Right - you could say the looney Right is excluded by definiton

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/30/2011 9:20:01 PM >

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RE: The good news - someone will want to stabilize Iraq... - 12/30/2011 10:57:56 PM   
InControl754


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Firstly bear in mind that these are words - not actions as Sanity was asked to produce. Words (belligerent or not) are not sufficient to justify military actions/responses.

Correct. These are words. Saber-rattling is a good term for them. They are threatening an illegal action (closing the straight of Hormuz) when they do not have the authority to do so (you admit that they only have the jurisdiction over the eastern half of the straight, below).

quote:


Bear in mind that the eastern half of the Straits come under Iranian jurisdiction and sovereignty - it belongs to Iran. The Straits will be under closed only if further sanctions are first applied to Iran*. Belligerence? Hardly! Iran acting to defend its own independence and sovereignty? Definitely.

Closing the straight is not an act of defending its own independence and sovereignty. If we choose not to buy their oil, and convince other nations to do the same, that does not give them the right to disrupt other nations' trade with the US, even if the ships sail near their territory. If you say that they do have the right, then you have just said that the Somali pirates are not pirates, they are just exercising their indepence and sovereignity.

quote:


Once again Iran will not be the aggressor but acting to protect and defend its sovereignty. Your point doesn't work. We still are waiting for a single action by Iran that demands a military response.

Correct. Their words / saber-rattling are not grounds for us to take action, and we have not. My point does work. If they blockade / close the strait, that is an act of war, which most likely would cause the US to talk to the United Nations to get permission to take action against them.

quote:


*Iranian sovereignty may extend even further than half of the Straits as Iran includes some small islands in the middle of the Straits.

*Iranian sovereignty may not extend even further. Until we have something that shows otherwise, I would have to disagree with this statement.


(in reply to tweakabelle)
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RE: The good news - someone will want to stabilize Iraq... - 12/30/2011 11:39:04 PM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: InControl75
.

quote:


Once again Iran will not be the aggressor but acting to protect and defend its sovereignty. Your point doesn't work. We still are waiting for a single action by Iran that demands a military response.

Correct. Their words / saber-rattling are not grounds for us to take action, and we have not. My point does work. If they blockade / close the strait, that is an act of war, which most likely would cause the US to talk to the United Nations to get permission to take action against them.



Our positions may be a lot closer that they may have seemed. If Iran closes the Straits after a US and/or Israeli attack, then it will be responding to an illegal act. If there are no illegal acts committed upon Iran, then the current peace should prevail. We might also note that Israel and (to a lesser extent) the US are doing their share of sabre-rattling too. An Iranian attempt to close the Straits completely, in response to further UN sanctions, would be an illegal response to a legal act.

If an Iranian response to a foreign act of war exceeds its legal rights, then the correct place to decide upon further responses/actions is the UN Security Council. If we can agree that a initial US/Israeli attack,without UN authorisation, is an illegal act of war, the the prime responsibility for all ensuing actions and reactions will fall on the US and/or Israel.

From where I sit, the question of UN approval is all-important. If all parties act with prudence and remain within the boundaries of international law, and in particular refrain from unilateral acts, then hopefully any military action will be avoided. These are always diplomatic solutions available whenever both sides want to find them.

In the context of how this question arose initially - Sanity was asked to list all the actions he claimed Iran had done that merited US and/or Israeli military intrevention - the threat to close the Straits fails to qualify as one such action. I'm pleased to note that we appear to agree on this.

BTW welcome to the boards!


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/31/2011 12:15:02 AM >

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RE: The good news - someone will want to stabilize Iraq... - 12/31/2011 1:27:51 AM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

quote:


quote: tweakabelle
*Iranian sovereignty may extend even further than half of the Straits as Iran includes some small islands in the middle of the Straits.


*Iranian sovereignty may not extend even further. Until we have something that shows otherwise, I would have to disagree with this statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Tunb.

I had this group of islands - the Tunbs and Abu Musa in mind when I made my comment above. I'm unsure about how this works out in precise detail. But it could complicate matters terribly. Especially if shipping channels run nearby ....... For instance, if the shipping channels are located between these islands and the Iranian mainland, then they could be wholly within Iranian territorial waters.

To further complicate matters the UAE claims these islands as part of the UAE. My understanding is they have been administered and controlled by Iran for centuries but I'm far from certain.

Expert advice is needed to clarify these issues.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/31/2011 1:45:43 AM >

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RE: The good news - someone will want to stabilize Iraq... - 12/31/2011 7:05:37 AM   
Miserlou


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Status: offline 		i have a question for you sanity, how many more widows do you need, how many more orphans?

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RE: The good news - someone will want to stabilize Iraq... - 12/31/2011 8:05:05 AM   
Sanity


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Sorry hill, but before you go giving other people "hints" on words you dont understand it would be wise for you to look them up and become familiar with them first...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

You might want to look up the word "Propaganda". I'll give you a hint. If it really happened, it isnt propaganda.

Now please make an attempt to stay on topic for once.


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RE: The good news - someone will want to stabilize Iraq... - 12/31/2011 8:06:14 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Actually its the leftists who were happy about all the widows and orphans brought about by the Baathists isnt it

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miserlou

i have a question for you sanity, how many more widows do you need, how many more orphans?


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RE: The good news - someone will want to stabilize Iraq... - 12/31/2011 8:10:26 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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The Saudis have had a few conversations with somebody...

quote:

In November 2010, the whistle blowing website Wikileaks disclosed various confidential documents pertaining to the US and its allies which revealed that Saudi Arabian King Abdullah urged the US to attack Iran to destroy its nuclear weapons programme, describing Iran as a snake whose head should be cut off without any procrastination.[31] The documents were dismissed by Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, claiming them to be "organised to be released on a regular basis."[32]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Saudi_Arabia_relations



quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

The problem now is their semi-annual sabre rattling over the Strait of Hormuz.

I have a feeling the Saudis have had a few conversations with them and told them that it isn't a very good idea to cut off the flow of all that money to the Saudi princes.


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RE: The good news - someone will want to stabilize Iraq... - 12/31/2011 8:15:21 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Actually its the leftists who were happy about all the widows and orphans brought about by the Baathists isnt it

[


After that Ann Coulter shit you supported out here, it is hardly seemly to lay out any widows based sympathy on your part and lay faulty on the on the leftists, it is clearly the rightists and other such destroyers of america who strive to see america turned into the land of widows. 

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RE: The good news - someone will want to stabilize Iraq... - 12/31/2011 9:17:42 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Actually its the leftists who were happy about all the widows and orphans brought about by the Baathists isnt it

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miserlou

i have a question for you sanity, how many more widows do you need, how many more orphans?


This response is callous and brutal. It flies in the face of all known facts.,

The looney Right/neo con alliance instigated designed and executed the Iraq disaster from the very beginning. To attempt to shift the blame onto those of us who opposed intervention and aggression in Iraq is a cowardly, irresponsible travesty. The looney Right/neo con alliance bears responsibility for every drop of blood, every fatality, every shattered life caused by its insane policies in Iraq.

As the looney Right makes a loud point of lecturing the rest of us interminably about 'personal responsibility', this collective irresponsibility, this point blank refusal to face up to and own the reality of its culpability makes the hypocrisy of the looney Right even more transparent. And repulsive.

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RE: The good news - someone will want to stabilize Iraq... - 12/31/2011 9:25:38 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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But the question was gentle as a butterfly landing on a beautiful flower on a soft warm spring day

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Actually its the leftists who were happy about all the widows and orphans brought about by the Baathists isnt it

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miserlou

i have a question for you sanity, how many more widows do you need, how many more orphans?


This response is callous and brutal. It flies in the face of all known facts.,

The looney Right/neo con alliance instigated designed and executed the Iraq disaster from the very beginning. To attempt to shift the blame onto those of us who opposed intervention and aggression in Iraq is a cowardly, irresponsible travesty. The looney Right/neo con alliance bears responsibility for every drop of blood, every fatality, every shattered life caused by its insane policies in Iraq.

As the looney Right makes a loud point of lecturing the rest of us interminably about 'personal responsibility', this collective irresponsibility, this point blank refusal to face up to and own the reality of its culpability makes the hypocrisy of the looney Right even more transparent. And repulsive.


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Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 80
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