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RE: Courting a male submissive - 1/8/2012 2:28:00 PM   
BootyBoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Hmmmm....I suspect I'm no better at seduction than I am at courtship.




Well, if you mean courtship in the traditional sense—well, isn't that just a period of dating each other to see if you're compatible?
It's like you're saying, "I'm no good at test driving... "

But somehow, I think that you're meaning something else?
I will say that I think a Domme "courting" a sub would look different than a vanilla courting and would address some different issues.

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RE: Courting a male submissive - 1/8/2012 2:49:12 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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BootyBoy, did you read the whole thread?

And why should it look different, can you expand on that?

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RE: Courting a male submissive - 1/8/2012 4:20:10 PM   
BootyBoy


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I did.

I think it would look differently because we're all effected by our environment, our upbringing, and our culture, and these imprint us all with certain a priori assumptions that effect our world understanding. For example: If a 5 foot 3 inch, 128 lb. submissive woman meets a 6 foot 2 inch, 210 lb. Dominant for coffee for the first time, she automatically is looking for reassurances that this guy is not unbalanced. She is immediately aware that to submit to him is to put herself at risk, and she is looking for assurances of trust and sanity. At least she should be, if she has any sense.

On the other hand, if a 6 foot 2 inch, 210 lb. submissive male meets a 5 foot 3 inch, 128 lb. Dominant woman, he is much less worried about his safety. In fact, his primary concern is whether or not this little woman can really dominate him—now, obviously not in every case, but very often. But, of course, THAT IS A MISTAKE. Once the 5 foot 3 inch woman has him in restraints, she could just as easily rob, murder, or mutilate him as he could her. She could drug him. She might have several accomplices using her as a lure. The feeling of relative safety is, in fact, an illusion THAT iS REALITY.

However, REALITY does not matter where conditioning has set the stage. Even though the strapping sub SHOULD be thinking about his safety, he isn't because society has taught him that a strapping man has nothing to worry about when it comes to his safety, especially from a smaller woman. In fact, he's probably even been conditioned to think that worrying about his safety too much is unmanly and a sign of weakness. Therefore, if a Dominant woman in her courtship of him tries to to assure him of his safety, he either misses it, is mildly amused by it, or may even consider it to be a kind of insult to his manhood. He may certainly tolerate it without comment, but it will not mean the same thing to him as if things were the other way around.

This can be applied to safety.
It can be applied to demonstrating that she can provide for his needs (the giving of tokens and gifts).
It can be applied to her guardianship over his emotional well being.

You might say that this is the result of a long-held patriarchal society, and that would be true, but it doesn't make the psychology of it any less real. So you can court a man, as if he were a woman, giving to him all of the same tokens, conventions, and promises, but it is not likely to mean the same things to him as a man, who has been socialized with certain impressions of his manhood. That is why I have said that "courtship" in this scenario should take into account the reality of the prevailing social construct and adapt accordingly to conventions that will be a better fit. It's no good asking why men don't generally react the same way to chocolates and flowers in the same way that women do. They simply don't, because they were taught differently. The other alternative is to try and unprogram an entire lifetime of social conditioning that will continue to be reinforced in the society around you, in which you both must live.

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RE: Courting a male submissive - 1/8/2012 5:30:54 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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What perfect sense!

And I've learned that a surprising number of men do like flowers and chocolate, just as some of us women are thrilled by Dremel accessories and flashlights. it's all part of the process, learning the new person.

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RE: Courting a male submissive - 1/8/2012 5:44:16 PM   
Lockit


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Social conditioning taught me that I was wrong to be as I was. It taught me that I was less a woman in my thinking and acting more like a man would, even though I looked very much the woman. It taught me that I could be a good little obedient wife and work part time or unimportant jobs... not a career unless I wanted to be a teacher.

I taught those around me that I wouldn't fit into their little box. I could beat the guys at any sport or activity they said I couldn't do until I showed them what I could do. My goal as a kid was to be the first female pitcher on the Angels. That didn't quite work out. lol I found I liked boys better.

While I couldn't change everything around me... I changed within it. Change has to start somewhere. It cannot be forced and by some of my words it might seem that I have tried to force it. Okay... once in a while with someone very rude... I did. lol I eased people into things as much as I could and the first part was... I am who I am. I am still a woman... see all that soft and nurturing... but... I also showed them I could stand with the men, compete with the men and actually achieve. One step at a time. Just as in courting a man. You watch him, you see what he likes... you work on things from there. A few couldn't manage change... more than a few could. The first step is seeing that change isn't a bad thing and the benefits of it. It may take generations... but I have to believe that without emasculating men... we can cherish them and show them that and they... or some of them can be okay with that.


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RE: Courting a male submissive - 1/8/2012 6:00:07 PM   
BootyBoy


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I do agree with you LadyHibiscus, that there is some crossover, as you say. Today, many more women like Dremels and nail guns, and more men like bon-bons :-)

But is is hard to get men to feel as protected by women as women fell protected by men. If I was walking the streets with a Dominant partner, I would not jump behind her skirts if roughnecks tried to give us any trouble. I would be out front and center, eye to eye with the trouble. I would not consider that to be subverting her authority, I would consider that to be serving her. On the other hand, if a male Dominant was faced with the same situation with his female submissive, I would think he would protect her as well.

We would both defend the woman we were walking with, even though we're diametrically opposed on the Dominance spectrum. Yet I see neither one of our actions as a contradiction of our D/s orientation. Our actions may be identical, but our way of processing our Service (as submissive) or Protection (as dominant) may be worlds apart.

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RE: Courting a male submissive - 1/8/2012 6:02:01 PM   
xxblushesxx


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*is stalking booty boy's posts, as they've all been very good*

(carry on)

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RE: Courting a male submissive - 1/8/2012 6:06:55 PM   
Lockit


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I am a freak for tools!  Love working with rock and cement and wood. (Oh hush!)

I don't know that courting someone would mean coming off as a protector. It could of course, but I don't see that as a part of courting a man unless it is assuring him somehow that his heart is safe. Courting can include seduction... seduction doesn't have to include courting. There are many things I see in courtship, but most of it amounts to showing someone that you value them and wish to be near them and you can do that in many ways.


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RE: Courting a male submissive - 1/8/2012 6:19:07 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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I really expect that kind of protection from a man, BootyBoy, though I have been the protector type since childhood. It's very telling, who will defend a strong woman, and who will say, "she's tough, she can take care of herself". That I can is beside the point.



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RE: Courting a male submissive - 1/8/2012 6:34:20 PM   
BootyBoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

I am a freak for tools!  Love working with rock and cement and wood. (Oh hush!)



Haha, me too!!! Especially POWER tools!!


quote:



"I don't know that courting someone would mean coming off as a protector. It could of course, but I don't see that as a part of courting a man unless it is assuring him somehow that his heart is safe. Courting can include seduction... seduction doesn't have to include courting. There are many things I see in courtship, but most of it amounts to showing someone that you value them and wish to be near them and you can do that in many ways."



@ Lockit

All I'm saying is that courting a male can look different than courting a female (sometimes) and that's OK. If the idea of giving gifts is to give a person something thoughtful that they will cherish, then it makes sense to me to give them what they like whether that's power tools, of orchids. And if most guys still happen to like receiving Makita rather than Tiffany's, then that's a great courtship gift for them. It may look different than being presented with box of cut-stem flowers, or Godiva chocolates, but I think that's OK. I don't see why it's any less "courtship" or a male defect not to want the chocolates instead.

On the other hand, I'm not saying that some women don't like Makita tools as well, or that some men don't like bon-bons—and that's OK too.

Now, on the other hand, I actually did have and older Domme who insisted on treating our fist date as a reverse date. She wanted to pick me up, buy the meal, and bring me flowers, open the doors. BUT, she was doing it to make a point. It's not that she thought that I liked these things so much, it was a subtle way of saying to me, "I am in control, you are in the receiver's position." So her motivation was different, and I processed it differently.

So, even when the act is identical, it may come off totally different, based on your social perspective.

BTW, Thanks xxblushesxx

(in reply to Lockit)
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RE: Courting a male submissive - 1/8/2012 6:40:01 PM   
Lockit


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I think I get what you're saying Bootyboy and I thank you for saying it!!!

I'm just getting tired and am not seeing all there is to see or addressing all I am seeing. lol Now would be a very good time for someone to be around courting me!

Your input has been great and I agree with the others that have made comments on your posts. I look forward to seeing more of you posts in the future!


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RE: Courting a male submissive - 1/8/2012 7:38:50 PM   
hangemhigh1953


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I totally get what this thread is talking about. I went out to a munch with a potential Domme, and I felt like the roles were reversed from vanilla dating... like I was the girlfriend and she was the boyfriend. She even made a move on me, sort of... lol. It felt natural to the submissive part of my personality, really.

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RE: Courting a male submissive - 1/8/2012 8:16:22 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Of curse she made a move on you, she's not blind!

Okay, off to start the seductions thread.

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RE: Courting a male submissive - 1/8/2012 9:14:28 PM   
BootyBoy


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Thanks Lockit, likewise!

On to SEDUCTION!!!

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RE: Courting a male submissive - 1/11/2012 3:34:48 AM   
darchChylde


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Skipped some posts, cause I'm lazy.

But, I have no problems feeling made safe by a woman. And I' am not what one would call a small or obviously submissive man. I can take care of myself, but I am much better off if the right woman has a certain modicum of control over my life.

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RE: Courting a male submissive - 1/12/2012 10:09:08 AM   
SlaveSubtoserve


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am currently being courted to some degree by the new Domme in my life and i appreciate it as it helps move me to my natural sub space with her.......she sets up a lot of the dates and after play feeding of this sub makes for great courting indeed ....i also woo her back too though in good spirit.

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RE: Courting a male submissive - 1/14/2012 12:12:33 AM   
SnowRanger


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Hello A/all,

If I could amend Higuysitsme's fem-Dom courting method it would be more like this: Begins... Hi! Bend over... Ends...!

I don't know that I've EVER been courted... seduced once or twice, maybe.

Unlike Higuys, I DO lack sufficient gorgeousness to attract that kind of attention. Consequently, any sign of interest from a woman is greatly appreciated.

Respectfully,
Mike
SnowRanger

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RE: Courting a male submissive - 1/14/2012 9:25:58 PM   
Zaboca


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Personally I would LOVE to meet a 'real' Domme, and I would be absolutely thrilled if she were to pursue me! That said, I should say that here in the Caribbean, Dommes are rather few and far between, so I am inclined to think that it can go either way as opinions go. Most men would be a little disoriented at first, I would agree, but I think that the disorientation would not last very long!

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RE: Courting a male submissive - 1/15/2012 2:27:06 AM   
FrostedFlake


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Seeing as the thread is back and I have thought more about it, I am going to post something I just hung on NiceButMeanGilrs' blog. Hoping that doesn't seem rude.

quote:

In the military there is a quick and handy way to estimate what best to do with an officer. This is to gage his relative energy or sloth and his relative brightness or dimness.

A bright and energetic officer is a joy to find and can be trusted with the most important and challenging assignments. A bright and lazy officer can be counted on to find the easiest way to do anything and so can be a great supervisor of men. There is even a role in the military for a dim and lazy officer. (Operating a brig is an example. Supervising a guard force is another.) But the dim and energetic officer is the cause of endless difficulty and strife and should be gotten rid of as quickly as possible.

Similarly, your criteria specify in your intended certain characteristics. These can be summarized as being into it and being into you. “It’ is, of course, exactly what you want him to want to do with you. “You’ is, of course, you. The guy you are looking for is sufficiently into both it and you, for your purposes. Your objective is to identify that guy. Those who do not meet the criteria, don’t meet the criteria. Those who do, are either attractive enough (inside and outside) to interest you or not.

It is a cold way to put it, but it is brief. And the closing thought is, no matter how much you like the wrong guy, he is still the wrong guy.

I hope that is not so obvious as it now seems. Else I have wasted valuable pixels.



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RE: Courting a male submissive - 1/15/2012 9:26:25 AM   
LadyHibiscus


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Really well put, FF. And highlighting the crux of the issue, he has to be into you.



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