RE: Intelligence vs writing (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 7:28:45 AM)

quote:

"i am well educated am looking for domme teach me to submit"

I have to wonder just what they mean by "well educated"


I see that and immediately think I am reading someone who does not have English as a first language. That person may well be a physicist in his/her country.




xssve -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 7:50:16 AM)

Scnce tlls m tht y cn rd nd cmprhnd ths sntnc vn thgh t cntns n vwls.

Edited for typos.




Moonhead -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 7:51:21 AM)

Or they might not be, of course.
It's very wrong to dismiss anybody for not having a perfect grasp of a second language, no question there. Sadly there's also no shortage of native speakers whose English is even worse than a lot of the first generation immigrants.
There's rather less of an excuse for that, imo.




Epytropos -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 7:54:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Do you seriously speak that way when with your friends and relaxing?

I won't speak for him, but I talk almost exactly the same way I write, admittedly with more cursing and general vulgarity. I think almost anyone who has had more than a few conversations with me would immediately recognize my writing just from the style and word choice (which as I say it may put me at risk of being outted...). Call me pretentious, but I think I'm a good bit more communicative this way than I would be in more simplistic terms. I'm not sure if that's true of everyone or not, but it's definitely true for some of us.




LaTigresse -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 8:02:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Why do people assume someone's ability to write, type, spell, use punctuation, ect, are indicative of intelligence?

Could it be that people can be smart yet not write very well?


Aside from text speak and a new trend I've noticed of an abundance of street slang and purposely misspelling words, thinking it is cute when it's just stupid herd mentality to ME........I tend to pay less attention to proper spelling, etc and more attention to the thoughts the words are conveying.

To ME, some of the the most brilliant people write poorly and some of the most precise and perfect writers are dull as MUD. They write on and on......blah blah blah blah blahhhhhh. It is obvious they feel they are utterly brilliant and are enlightening the rest of us with their brilliance but to me......it's like the adults on Charlie Brown.

So give me a person with less than perfect writing skills but colourful, interesting.......able to write something that is actually interesting, enlightening, entertaining! And yes, obviously has a brain that cares more about content that delivery.




tazzygirl -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 8:03:22 AM)

quote:

How they dress, talk, look, gender, socio-economic background, religious background and such can be used to give you an estimate of how a person will behave or think, but it is by no means definitive. 


I have a friend who has a high school education who wears Italian suits and shoes. I also think its pretty presumptive to believe you understand how someone will think based upon gender, socio-economic status or religious background.

But, for the sake of this discussion, we are speaking of the written word. I can write I am a 54 year old Physician who specializes in orthopedic surgery of the foot and ankle, and play it off pretty convincingly. I would be even better as a High Risk Obstetrician.

For myself, it's not about syntax... it's not about style... it's definitely not about looks. I come here to learn... to have fun, but also learn. Here, as I do off line, I engage many people in conversations. Doctors, Lawyers, businessmen, bus drivers, cabbies, elderly, homeless. culinary students, medical students, nurses and chefs. I enjoy intense conversations about politics and american life in general with the owners of the restaurant where I work. The main owner is Korean and he enjoys learning about the US and how we think on various topics.

Intelligence is where you decide to look for it. I get a kick out of some posts. They sound all smart, using nice, huge words. When, in reality, by the time you are done reading them, you have no clue what was said. It seems more like an effort to prove who is smarter. Its obvious, to me and in my opinion, that they are here merely to show off their education. I'm all for a great education. But discounting an individual's intelligence based upon education is pretty limiting.

For example, if you want to learn about child rearing, you can speak to a Physician, to a child educator, to a child psychologist, or to a woman who has had 6 kids (the 6 is not a requirement). It all depends on the information you are seeking. All I would consider having immense knowledge on the subject, all in different ways. All but one will have a higher education, which, for some, equates to a higher intellect. Yet, some would discount the mother because she doesn't hold a college degree (yes, many do, I am making a point here).

As I said, I am here to learn about many things. I pull from many people, many posters. Even those I don't always agree with, I learn from. Discounting someone because they dont use the "proper" forms of grammar or punctuation means I would miss out on a whole lot of great information.

To me, there is no intelligent reason for doing that.




tazzygirl -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 8:05:37 AM)

quote:

To ME, some of the the most brilliant people write poorly and some of the most precise and perfect writers are dull as MUD. They write on and on......blah blah blah blah blahhhhhh. It is obvious they feel they are utterly brilliant and are enlightening the rest of us with their brilliance but to me......it's like the adults on Charlie Brown.


You get that impression as well? Thats how I feel when I read such posts. My eyes glaze over after a few paragraphs and I give up.




Duskypearls -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 8:07:22 AM)

It is a funny thing to me, this thread, for it allows me to closer examine myself and my feelings, and there is a puzzling ambiguity within me regarding this.

As some of you may remember, I've recently shared some of the negative effects many unfortunate early (and later) events had upon me in life, the result being that I shut down and stopped functioning and developing normally in so many ways until recently.

One of the critical things greatly affected was my communication, verbal and written. From about the age of 5, the conclusions I drew were that it was unsafe to speak my truth, especially if it countered those of the PTB, and unsafe to physically be, show and express myself. I pretty much stopped talking and interacting in any normal way within and outside the family unit, and sat on the outside looking in, always fearful of being physically and emotionally harmed for being and expressing me, and adopted a most mannequin-like way of looking, sounding and acting.

In effect, I was frozen, and did not, could not, think or speak freely. Normal thinking, questioning, emoting processes, and social skills and interactions came to an abrupt halt, and my existence pretty much revolved around feeling like prey within a predatory environment, which doesn't offer much opportunity for growth or advancement. The ability to think critically, have an opinion, question or challenge others, or defend myself fell by the wayside, and severely hampered the way in which I functioned and dealt with people and life in general, for decades to come.

Books offered me escape, respite and entertainment, but I never gave it much thought until about 4-5 years ago (at age 50-51), when all of a sudden, my mind, heart and body began awakening from its long and dreadful, nightmarish sleep, upon its own volition. You will laugh when I tell you what triggered this awakening, and I will laugh with you, for it is amusing.

After decades of isolation and deprivation, having not communicated much or well verbally or on paper with others, my entire being began screaming for release and craved connection and normal, healthy experiences with a man. It forced me to step outside myself, my comfort zone and previous experiences, and begin online dating, at which I was insanely and painfully naive and inept.

Then the funniest, most unexpected thing began to happen. All of a sudden, online, I began to get positive feedback from men regarding what and how I wrote to them, which astonished and encouraged me, and inspired me to work harder at it. The more compliments and gratitude I received about how good I made them feel, the better I felt about myself (for the first time), and put even more effort into it. It was suddenly becoming clear to me that this long dormant human kernal was begining to show signs of sprouting.

I became willfully conscious and careful about my written words in attempts to use them to best effect, and found this was not only well-received by others, but also myself, as it felt wonderful to be rewarded for making another feel good with my words, so I took great pains to improve this new-found skill. It then occurred to me all those books I'd read over the years were not for naught, but in fact had created a secret vault of their own that was now being opened and tapped, and words, ideas, and expressions started coming out of me that I never knew were there. It felt as though there was another person(s) inside me doing the writing, and it felt (feels) odd at times.

I became proud of my new ability, to the point of being just a wee bit too proud, and suddenly found myself feeling critical of others with lesser written communication skills, and was often offended by, and judgmental of those with less than I. How funny it is, now, to look back and see I was derisively looking down my nose at them, and quietly to myself, dismissing them as future potential partners. Talk about a snob!

Fortunately, I have since stepped down from my dangerously high horse, and come to the conclusion we cannot all excel in all things, and that doesn't make us better or worse than others. A person's intent, and what is in their heart, is of far more importance and value to me. Here are the actual words I wrote to a very fine, intelligent, and good-hearted fellow, who feared his typos would put me off:

"...please don’t apologize…you don’t EVER have to apologize to me, especially for something so little and insignificant as typo’s and whatnot (surely you’ve noticed some of mine!). Heavens to Mergatroy (sp?)! Here’s the way I look at it…I don’t care how perfectly someone does or does not express themselves, either verbally or on paper. As long as I can get the gist of what they’re saying, that’s ALL that matters. God did not die and leave me Editor-in-Chief over the rest of the world. And anyhow, even if he did, if I was that fast and loose with red pen, how picayune and neurotic would that make me? So relax, my good man, you are in safe territory. I’m not one for taking pot shots at anybody. Wild turkeys, maybe, but not people. That’s just not my style."

So I have become much less judgmental, and much more forgiving and understanding about this, and find it serves me well.




tazzygirl -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 8:16:12 AM)

Dusky, you have quickly become one of my favorite posters. Your words are so clear, your meaning well thought out, your intelligence obvious. And there was absolutely nothing pretentious in the above post. Thank you for proving that point succinctly for me. (Btw, it took me three times to spell succinctly right [:'(] )




ScaryJello -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 8:17:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

For myself, it's not about syntax... it's not about style... it's definitely not about looks. I come here to learn... to have fun, but also learn. Here, as I do off line, I engage many people in conversations. Doctors, Lawyers, businessmen, bus drivers, cabbies, elderly, homeless. culinary students, medical students, nurses and chefs. I enjoy intense conversations about politics and american life in general with the owners of the restaurant where I work. The main owner is Korean and he enjoys learning about the US and how we think on various topics.

Intelligence is where you decide to look for it. I get a kick out of some posts. They sound all smart, using nice, huge words. When, in reality, by the time you are done reading them, you have no clue what was said. It seems more like an effort to prove who is smarter. Its obvious, to me and in my opinion, that they are here merely to show off their education. I'm all for a great education. But discounting an individual's intelligence based upon education is pretty limiting.

For example, if you want to learn about child rearing, you can speak to a Physician, to a child educator, to a child psychologist, or to a woman who has had 6 kids (the 6 is not a requirement). It all depends on the information you are seeking. All I would consider having immense knowledge on the subject, all in different ways. All but one will have a higher education, which, for some, equates to a higher intellect. Yet, some would discount the mother because she doesn't hold a college degree (yes, many do, I am making a point here).

As I said, I am here to learn about many things. I pull from many people, many posters. Even those I don't always agree with, I learn from. Discounting someone because they dont use the "proper" forms of grammar or punctuation means I would miss out on a whole lot of great information.

To me, there is no intelligent reason for doing that.


I am not attempting to, nor have I tried to equate education with intelligence.  I am a high school graduate.  I do not have a college degree.  Having an advanced education does not mean that a person in intelligent, especially given how American schools tend to focus on rote memorization of data. 

I don't use their ability to speak and write in proper English as the only factor to determine how intelligent I think they are.  It is merely one factor that I use. 

“Poor Faulkner. Does he really think big emotions come from big words? He thinks I don't know the ten-dollar words. I know them all right. But there are older and simpler and better words, and those are the ones I use.”  Ernest Hemingway

I prefer simple words and sentences.  Just because you can craft an intricate and impressive sentence or paragraph, it doesn't mean that you are intelligent or that it is even the best method of communication.






tazzygirl -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 8:26:36 AM)

~FR

I found these and thought some might be interested.

"Summarizing several studies done in the United States and Canada, the average reading skill level was estimated to be at around the 8th to 9th grade (University of Utah Health Sciences Center). However, this same study found that about one in five adults had a reading skill level at the 5th grade level or below."

http://www.humanfactors.com/downloads/jun02.asp
.
But it's interesting to note that:
many newspapers and magazines are written to a 9th grade level;
USA Today, New York Times, and the New Yorker are written to a 10th grade level;
The Times of India is the least readable, at a 15th grade level.
John Grisham, Tom Clancy, Michael Crichton, Stephen King, and Clive Cussler write at a 7th grade level;
Romance novels are often written at a 5th grade level

http://www.impact-information.com/impactinfo/newsletter/plwork15.htm




Moonhead -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 8:29:38 AM)

That's a good line of Hemmingway's (and parroting a still better line of Twain's), but it's still a fact that Hemmingway style underwriting has proved a far more pernicious influence on American literature than Faulkner style over writing in the long run. Hemmingway made a point of using exactly the right word rather than rambling around it with a phrase or two, which is the sort of minimalism that works.

Besides, he was a man who took a lot of care and effort in his use of English, so a load of blather about Hemingway isn't really an excuse for somebody who can't spell, doesn't have a clue about grammar, and couldn't write a clear and communicative sentence if their life depended on it, is it? That isn't a style that's been pared of all fripperies and irrelevances, it's just ill mannered contempt for whoever you're trying to talk with, and there's no excuse for that.




ScaryJello -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 8:35:32 AM)

@Moonhead

My intent wasn't to use the quote to excuse poor spelling or a lack of knowledge about proper English.  The intent was simply to state that, yes there are people who deliberately use large words and complicated sentence structures to make themselves appear intelligent. 

I was trying (and perhaps wasn't as clear as I should have been) to say that simple writing is just as effective, if not more so than complicated writing.  You don't have to write at a 15th or 20th grade level to show that you have a good grasp on the language. 

I apologize for not being as clear as I should have been.




DesFIP -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 8:40:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

It's very possible for someone to be intelligent and not a good writer but it is highly unlikely that a person who writes impeccably is riding the short bus.



Or not. My oldest has a severe emotional disorder, is classified under the Americans with Disabilities Act and has an IQ of 135.

For years I proof read her papers and helped her figure out spelling and grammar. She had a page I wrote to refer to about the differences between it's and its; their, there and they're and several other common mistakes people make. Over time, and with the advances in spell and grammar check, she graduated with honors from one of the top private universities in the nation.

The Man holds a dual master's; MBA from Wharton and MSEE from Morse. I proofread his papers now that he runs his own business. When he was in the corporate world, his secretary did that. Are you seriously suggesting that the secretary was superior because of her spelling?

You might want to look at Einstein's school grades, for example.




Moonhead -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 8:44:14 AM)

No problem. I shouldn't have jumped down your throat like that, anyway. I have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about that whole "Hemmingway's better than anybody else" thing...




ScaryJello -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 8:45:31 AM)

@DesFIP

The ability to spell does not make someone superior to another.  It is simply one indicator of intelligence, but by no means the only one.  I am a terrible speller.  I make constant use of dictionary.com to make sure that I have spelt everything correctly. 

Lastly, that is a myth that Einstein did poorly in school.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2004/06/23/1115185.htm




xssve -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 8:50:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

That's a good line of Hemmingway's (and parroting a still better line of Twain's), but it's still a fact that Hemmingway style underwriting has proved a far more pernicious influence on American literature than Faulkner style over writing in the long run. Hemmingway made a point of using exactly the right word rather than rambling around it with a phrase or two, which is the sort of minimalism that works.

Besides, he was a man who took a lot of care and effort in his use of English, so a load of blather about Hemingway isn't really an excuse for somebody who can't spell, doesn't have a clue about grammar, and couldn't write a clear and communicative sentence if their life depended on it, is it? That isn't a style that's been pared of all fripperies and irrelevances, it's just ill mannered contempt for whoever you're trying to talk with, and there's no excuse for that.
Conrad is, I believe, considered the best writer in the English language, Hemmingway is adolescent by comparison, at least in terms of content. Henry James is sometimes mentioned, but even I have difficulty following the Shakespearan complexities of his prose.

I have been compared to Faulkner myself, not necessarily favorably. [&o]

In short, there is a distinction between saying something and having something meaningful to say, and while there is certainly a threshold of articulation vs. confusion, intelligence covers both expression and comprehension - also raised is the issue of character, intelligence, per se, doesn't axiomatically correlate with educational level, the world is full of highly educated, insincere, self centered assholes.

Not does character correlate with wealth, but that's another subject.




tazzygirl -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 8:54:24 AM)

~sighs and grabs the dictionary again

Ok, I got it now.




Duskypearls -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 9:02:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Dusky, you have quickly become one of my favorite posters. Your words are so clear, your meaning well thought out, your intelligence obvious. And there was absolutely nothing pretentious in the above post. Thank you for proving that point succinctly for me. (Btw, it took me three times to spell succinctly right [:'(] )


Awwww, shucks, Taz!

In regards to spelling, all I can say is dict dot com is just about my favorite friend these days, and I'm constantly amazed and humbled by how much I thought I knew, but do no know!




xssve -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 9:05:59 AM)

I'm basically an empiricist, and I prefer a straightforward writing style, and if it takes big words to say something, that's what dictionaries are for - it always strikes me as funny that lit majors are such grammar nazis, but also tend to be poetry fans - I just don't get poetry for the most part, it strikes me as the art of saying nothing in the most interesting way possible, grammar and logic be damned, but I don't think poets are illiterate.

Typo, left out the e in "get", lol.




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