RE: Intelligence vs writing (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 12:37:25 PM)

quote:

I realize that there may be some genuine reasons, like learning disabilities, or English being a second language, that make it difficult for some reason, but for the most part I feel that there is no excuse for not having at least a very basic understanding of proper grammar.


I cannot diagram a sentence to save my life.

Guess I do not meet your strict standards.




Lucylastic -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 12:38:52 PM)

someone tried to slag me off the other night for my "english"
she assumed rather sarcastically that I had dyslexia and if it was so then it was understandable.
I dont have dylexia, I do have a paralysed pinkie finger which gets caught up on my "shift" key.
Her comment just added to my contempt for her, however, I am lazy with my apostrophes and my "way of speech" I write how I talk, and that is a problem, because I am english*very* and I often use slang, dialect, sarcasm, satire, colloquialism and other bad english. *especially bad for some americans*
I also tend not to capitalize everything, simply because of my pinky finger not working properly.





Marc2b -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 12:50:24 PM)

quote:

Why do people assume someone's ability to write, type, spell, use punctuation, ect, are indicative of intelligence?


Because people are dicks.

quote:

Could it be that people can be smart yet not write very well?


Yes.

This is another example of people equating the concept of intelligence with the concept of education.  The two are not the same.

Intelligence is the ability to store, recall, and process information.

Education is the "facts" that someone knows.  I put "facts" in quotes becasue the facts in question may be wrong, even when genuinely believed to be true (garbage in, garbage out, in other words).

As a society we tend to think that "being educated" means a high school education (at least) and more often as having a college education and that anyone who does not posses these to be uneducated and therefore less intelligent.  We tend to think that the university professor who write tomes of literary criticism as being more intelligent than the farmer who writes sentences like the one Hippiekinkster encountered ( "I the US and the Western country more people poor are from over being weight then from starvation."). 

That is a mistake.  The professor and the farmer may both be very intelligent people (or they may both of low intelligence... I have met many a well educated idiot) but they are educated in different things.  The farmer may not know a thing about Shakespeare or how to put together a "proper" sentence but the professor likely doesn't know when to plant certain crops, what particular fertilizers or pesticides to use or how to operate farm machinery.

The desire, even need, to view other people as less intelligent stems from the human ego.  It feels good to "know" that you are more intelligent that someone else, particularly if that person just happens to be on the other side of your political/religious/philosophical views, since it apparently validates your own posistion:  "They're an idiot therefore they are wrong and I am right... as usual."  





Aswad -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 12:57:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

Scnce tlls m tht y cn rd nd cmprhnd ths sntnc vn thgh t cntns n vwls.


Yes, but it was a painful struggle.


That's taking it a bit far. It reads just fine, apart from "even". Somewhat slower pace, but it doesn't take actually working the words out consciously to read it. I would say insane color schemes and anglicized quotation practices (e.g. placing a comma inside the quotation mark instead of where it makes semantic and contextual sense) are a greater obstacle, which is why I don't do the former, and prefer not to do the latter.

Having a program randomly delete vowels would probably help boost people's reading speed over time, since part of the process of reading is how the predictions made by semantic interpretation meet the guesses made by form recognition to decide on a likely content, not necessarily even working in the as-written order until fully resolved. Pushing the process into semantic territory might reduce the reliance on visual cues and also improve semantic branching and lookahead.

quote:

I'll give weight to why the error is there - is it a shortcut or lack of knowledge?


At which point one has diverted lots of effort into critique, rather than just 'hearing' what is being said.

I hope this is rewarding to people in some way that I cannot see.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 1:00:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArmoredTeddyBear

I feel that there is no excuse for not having at least a very basic understanding of proper grammar.


Then may I recommend demonstrating such understanding in the future?

This is not a sentence. That was not a hint. These are not art.

Health,
al-Aswad.




ArmoredTeddyBear -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 1:29:48 PM)

Actually, I do have much more than a basic understanding of proper grammar. I never said anyone's grammar had to be absolutely perfect. I'm not so sensitive about it that I'm going to nitpick over something so trivial as a sentence that may - or may not - be flawlessly worded. I was referring to a very basic understanding of it. That leaves a lot of room for error when somebody may not create a perfectly worded, grammatically correct sentence.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArmoredTeddyBear

I feel that there is no excuse for not having at least a very basic understanding of proper grammar.


Then may I recommend demonstrating such understanding in the future?

This is not a sentence. That was not a hint. These are not art.

Health,
al-Aswad.






popeye1250 -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 1:31:43 PM)

Ever look at a Doctor's prescription?




tazzygirl -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 1:40:44 PM)

quote:

That is a mistake.  The professor and the farmer may both be very intelligent people (or they may both of low intelligence... I have met many a well educated idiot) but they are educated in different things.  The farmer may not know a thing about Shakespeare or how to put together a "proper" sentence but the professor likely doesn't know when to plant certain crops, what particular fertilizers or pesticides to use or how to operate farm machinery.


It does my heart good to see someone else getting what I am driving at. I know a man with a 6th grade education who is a master wizard at fixing cars... any kind, any year.

I know more than one building contractor who possesses no college education.. a few with only a GED.

My grandfather had a 5th grade education, which was considered high, when he had to quit to help on the family farm. The man had no problem keeping his family fed. Could he quote Shakespeare? No. Could he look at a plot of land and tell you what would grow and what wouldnt, without the fancy testing they do these days? Yes.

Intelligence is often related directly to the topic at hand. Education can come from books, or from life experience.





tazzygirl -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 1:43:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Ever look at a Doctor's prescription?


~smirks

We had a physician whose hand writing was so bad, the hospital bought him a type writer (yes, pre-computer days) to write his notes on because the minute he walked away from the chart, he would forget what he wrote and he couldnt read his own handwriting




LaTigresse -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 2:59:09 PM)

I completely got what you were driving at. My formal education is dramatically lacking. I would say that the last worthwhile grade I completed in school was probably my 9th year. I am no wizard to be certain, but I am also no idiot.

Just don't ask me about much of the stuff that was taught beyond the 9th grade that didn't interest me enough to learn.........nor quite a bit of the stuff prior to the end of the 9th grade for that matter.......algebra, and so forth, being numero uno.

My parents were not exactly, involved, in my education. When the kids I grew up with, went to school with, were graduating, I was taking care of my own kids and dealing with a addicted husband. A formal education kinda got tossed by the way side.

Yet, I don't think I am an utter oaf.....just a little uneducated in some areas.




Aswad -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 4:00:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArmoredTeddyBear

Actually, I do have much more than a basic understanding of proper grammar. I never said anyone's grammar had to be absolutely perfect. I'm not so sensitive about it that I'm going to nitpick over something so trivial as a sentence that may - or may not - be flawlessly worded. I was referring to a very basic understanding of it. That leaves a lot of room for error when somebody may not create a perfectly worded, grammatically correct sentence.


Thank you for completing the work. It turned out as expected, though sadly not as hoped. Should the point prove to be of interest some day, it could no doubt be excavated with little effort. Just take a left by the honeypot, giggle, and click your heels twice. The points along the port side should prove infinitely more interesting to ponder than to explain, and there is little chance of the landscape resembling the travel sequence from 2001, though apparently it might be no more familiar. Expect any colorless green dreams to sleep on more furiously than ever as the journey progresses.

My apologies for any grammatical mishaps and spelling errors in the above.

Health,
al-Aswad.





tazzygirl -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 4:42:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I completely got what you were driving at. My formal education is dramatically lacking. I would say that the last worthwhile grade I completed in school was probably my 9th year. I am no wizard to be certain, but I am also no idiot.

Just don't ask me about much of the stuff that was taught beyond the 9th grade that didn't interest me enough to learn.........nor quite a bit of the stuff prior to the end of the 9th grade for that matter.......algebra, and so forth, being numero uno.

My parents were not exactly, involved, in my education. When the kids I grew up with, went to school with, were graduating, I was taking care of my own kids and dealing with a addicted husband. A formal education kinda got tossed by the way side.

Yet, I don't think I am an utter oaf.....just a little uneducated in some areas.




I always thought someone was "lacking in intelligence" if they didnt ask the questions, didnt look for the information, and didnt take advantage of the intelligence surrounding them.

Shoot, I can write just as goodly as the rest of em... I can write just as badly. And it doesnt matter to me how smart, or dumb, someone on a message board believes I am. I am still gaining knowledge, still learning, still gathering that information from just as many sources as I possibly can.

And if someone glazes past my post because I drop a few dangly things... Im not too sure I wanted the knowledge they could have imparted to begin with.




Casteele -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 9:02:49 PM)

FR

It really depends on how you use (or misuse)  the word "intelligence" here. I didn't read every post, but I did see some that differentiated between "intelligence" and "education", and even "articulation". It is good some do see the difference, because there IS a difference. It's ironic when someone assumes someone whom has poor writing skills is not intelligent--when they are misusing the word intelligent itself, displaying their own poor education and ignorance. Even I do it. Quite often, in fact, as I am one of those whom is quickly annoyed by improper or apparently ignorant writing. Not necessarily poor writing, however, as I know many intelligent people whom are grammatically challenged. Some to the point they can hang a handicap sign off their rear view mirror :-P

I also have very low tolerance for utter laziness and even contempt for at least reasonable writing. I've sometimes engaged writings online that one person was simply a very poor writer and struggled with trying to express themselves clearly and effectively, while others made no attempt at all and JuSt DiD ThE AlTeRnAtInG CaPs or some other fuck-all contempt for even trying to be reasonable.

There was also the question posted about content instead of  just the grammar and/or wording.

All-in-all, for myself, I tend to take it all in to consideration and try to be forgiving. But some people do grate my nerves, and yes, I do judge them to be a little less intelligent than I should. But at the same time, I also wonder if it's not an unfair judgment--If they had the intelligence, would they not also have the capacity to at least try?




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 10:29:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Casteele

- It's ironic when someone assumes someone whom...
- Quite often, in fact, as I am one of those whom...
- Not necessarily poor writing, however, as I know many intelligent people whom...



"The general opinion on whom is that "it is [already] virtually dead" (Aarts, 2004, p. 71) and will sooner or later disappear as it is just a relic of older times and therefore will die out.

"Nearly half a century ago Edward Sapir predicted the demise of whom, showing at great length that it was doomed because it was 'psychologically isolated' from the objective pronouns me, us, him, her, them on the one hand, and the invariables which, what, that and where, when, how, why on the other." (Potter, 1975², p. 151)

This opinion cannot be proved so far; "prescriptivists even continue to defend this form as the only 'correct' one in functions other than the subject." (Aarts, 2004, p. 71) The only thing which can really be stated is a "fluctuation or even a convergence between the two major regional standards, rather than a directed diachronic change." (Mair, 2006, p. 142) Therefore, whom cannot be denoted as a rare word in the English grammar. Rather it has to be said that whom is often used in interrogative sentences, when it follows a preposition. There are still two totally common ways of expressing something. "To whom did you give it? Who did you give it to?" (Potter, 1975², p. 152) Moreover, in relative clauses whom has to be used when there are "no end preposition alternatives." (Potter, 1975², p. 152) Even though whom is still used and sometimes has to be applied in certain expressions, there is a change in the appropriate use of whom. One has the impression that whom is used a lot more rarely nowadays. It seems there has been a certain movement concerning another part of English linguistics: the difference in use between written and spoken on the one and formal and informal English on the other hand. When comparing the two following examples on interrogative whom following a preposition, can be detected that the first incidence is more formal than the second one in which who is used. "To whom are you speaking?" "Who are you speaking to?" (Brinten & Arnovick, 2006, p. 440) As already mentioned

"whom is moribund as an element of the core grammar of English, but is very much alive as a style marker whose correct use is acquired in the educational system [, where it is taught]. [The use of whom] is highly restricted, but rather than disappear entirely, the form is likely to remain in use for some time to come because of its over prestige in writing." (Mair, 2006, pp. 143, 144)

"Another point to note is that in all these circumstances the decline of interrogative whom is more advanced than the decline of relative whom, which may be related to the issue of the degree of complexity of sentences." (Yoko & Michiko, 2009, p. 189)

Another event which often occurs if who and whom are applied is hypercorrection. That means that certain grammar rules, for instance the use of whom as a referent for the object, spread to other parts of English grammar, although they are not correct but are applied because of the desire to sound correct, educated and more formal. As there are many possible variations in the use of who and whom, confusion arises among speakers "about the use of subject and object forms and hence mistakes due to hypercorrection happen". "Whom do you think you are?" (Brinten & Arnovick, 2006, p. 440) is a perfect incidence of hypercorrection, as whom is used as a subject form and therefore is wrong in that case and should be replaced by a grammatically correct who."

(Wiki)
Perhaps I'm tilting at windmills, but I wouldn't like to see the distinction between the traditional usages of "who" and "whom" disappear.




tazzygirl -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 10:30:22 PM)

Who is to say some arent trying?

My son is a perfect example. College educated, smart as a whip. Great grades. Catches on to most mechanical things quickly. Yet, cant write worth a damn. He even hated reading until he discovered Goosebumps. That sparked his inner desire to articulate himself better. He now writes short stories and has other people read and edit as needed. He knows his limitations. That doesnt mean he doesnt try.

I realize some do not. That doesnt mean everyone who posts poorly isnt struggling.




MistressDarkArt -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 10:45:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

<snip> bother me the way someone who improperly adds an apostrophe that indicates a possessive for an actual plural.



This one bug's hell out of me too. And for some reason it seem's much more prevalent these day's. So Kali, dear, would you please go feed the horse's, dog's and cat's? [:D]


Seriously, I don't recall seeing this mistake so much in the past as I have in the last few years. Anyone else notice it seems to be a fairly recent phenomenon?

quote:

ORIGINAL: ScaryJello

One of the hallmarks of intelligence is the ability to clearly and effectively communicate.  We live in an age were there is no excuse for grammatical and typographical errors (beyond those that are typos.)  Collarme even goes so far as to underline words that it thinks are misspelled.  Everyone on this site is assumed to be at least eighteen years old.  As such one can assume that the majority of them have completed, at the very least, high school.  As such basic spelling errors and grammatical errors should be easily spotted and corrected. 

When I read a profile and the author constantly misuses "their," "there," "your," "you're" or other similar words I tend to leave the profile, regardless of how much it may interest me. 

Perhaps I am being a bit of a snob, but the ability to write cogently and speak properly are indicative of a sharp mind, in my opinion, and as such profiles or people lacking in those abilities are turn-offs to me. 

Of course my mother is a Technical Writer and taught ESL when I was growing up, so that might have had a profound influence upon me.  The daily beatings with a dictionary also affected me.  (I am only kidding.  There were no beatings.)





ScaryJello, I love you. Will you marry me?




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 10:58:21 PM)

I was going to comment on that apostrophe thing in my post, but decided to stick to one gripe at a time. [8D]

I usually read them as "word" + "is". My brother herds goat's. Goat is? Okey-doke.




gungadin09 -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/10/2012 10:59:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Why do people assume someone's ability to write, type, spell, use punctuation, ect, are indicative of intelligence?


Okay, here goes.

There is a snob mentality in the forums. Many posters get off on shooting people down, on the slightest pretext. The grammar police are just one manifestation of this. I often see it when someone, especially a new or unpopular poster, says something that disagrees with popular opinion, and a witch-hunt ensues. I'm often astonished to see how vicious and petty people become, and how acceptable it is to deliberately misunderstand what was never unclear to begin with, as a pretext for firing completely unwarranted snark at someone.

The reason people depreciate a person's intelligence because of their spelling, grammar, etc., is because, really, they wanted to do so in the first place, and the fact that a poster wrote "your" instead of "you're" simply provided them with an opportunity.

pam




thishereboi -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/11/2012 6:15:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

"i am well educated am looking for domme teach me to submit"

I have to wonder just what they mean by "well educated"


I see that and immediately think I am reading someone who does not have English as a first language. That person may well be a physicist in his/her country.


While that is possible, you should not assume it. The one I mentioned was a 20 year old white girl from the states.




LaTigresse -> RE: Intelligence vs writing (1/11/2012 7:37:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

The reason people depreciate a person's intelligence because of their spelling, grammar, etc., is because, really, they wanted to do so in the first place, and the fact that a poster wrote "your" instead of "you're" simply provided them with an opportunity.

pam


Most definitely! It's just one more visible thing that can be used when the user is looking for any available ammunition.

As for Casteele's comment about it being lazy. I don't really see it as necessarily lazy, in as much as a possible lack of, give a damn. The two do not always go hand in hand.




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