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RE: Intelligence vs writing - 1/11/2012 12:41:12 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Hell, I don't even know what a dangly participle IS!

It very likely sounds a lot more fun than it is....

Which is probably why I don't know what it is.


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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Profile   Post #: 121
RE: Intelligence vs writing - 1/11/2012 12:42:19 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		I bet you have lovely dangly participles!!!!

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RE: Intelligence vs writing - 1/11/2012 12:48:06 PM   
tazzygirl


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http://homeworktips.about.com/od/englishhomework/ss/diagram_9.htm

Im hopeless when it comes to this.

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Intelligence vs writing - 1/11/2012 12:49:15 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		No wonder the Shat needed that corset on Star Trek, then...

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Intelligence vs writing - 1/11/2012 12:52:25 PM   
Moonhead


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Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Fair enough.
If an audience knows you only through prose, and you can't even be arsed to make an effort to try to get that right, then a certain disdain from people who can be arsed to make the effort is only natural, though.
(And there's quite a difference between that and somebody who starts throwing a histrionic shitfit about typos or split infinitives after every other attampt to shoot somebody they don't like down has failed. The way the two are being run together in this thread is a bit depressing, really.)


Tazzy, please consider the meaning of the sentences* which I've bolded here, and how you seem to have derived the complete fucking opposite of what they actually say from them by focussing on two words and ignoring everything else.

*(Which I wouldn't have started with a preposition if I was a grammar nazi, please note)

< Message edited by Moonhead -- 1/11/2012 12:53:47 PM >

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
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Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Intelligence vs writing - 1/11/2012 12:55:03 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I noticed you misspelled attempt.

Pst... learn when I am making a joke.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Intelligence vs writing - 1/11/2012 3:37:46 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Random thought: if you have a learning disability, or English is not your first language, or are responding from a phone you will get hassled less if you add this to your signature line.


Voice of experience (An): if both are the case, you will get hassled less if you avoid getting too good. Beyond a certain point, people stop lauding your effort at overcoming dyslexia in a second language, and start picking on the things you didn't get right. She's tried the sig line thing, and it does help a little bit, but not a whole lot. When you come right down to it, a lot of snobs out there want you to go hide in a dark corner if you don't type like an English teacher.

Course, way I see it is, y'all reading this got no problem. I's understood jus' fine, talk nice 'n proper, or make like ain't got shit for education. Don't matter nothin' there's a few pieces missin' my sentences. Gone done it right, mightn't get all them complaints throwed at me, either. More importaint, won' be a single pearl lost ta swine, 'n that ain't no loss, 'atsa win. It be spellin' or grammar, intelligence don't pay no mind ta that, ain't words that matter. Meanin', that where 's at.

(I'll have to apologize for what is probably a poor rendition of the spoken form. Hopefully, the lazy tongue and slurring gets across well enough to carry the tone, despite no marking of the truncations and glottal dummy words. I just don't know how to render those. As noted, despite passable fluency, I'm not native and actually don't have a familiarity with much beyond what I've picked up from subtitled TV and books. I've no formal education in English, written or spoken. Orthographic conventions and idioms are largely guesswork on my part.)

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Intelligence vs writing - 1/11/2012 3:55:00 PM   
kalikshama


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Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

This one bug's hell out of me too. And for some reason it seem's much more prevalent these day's. So Kali, dear, would you please go feed the horse's, dog's and cat's?

Seriously, I don't recall seeing this mistake so much in the past as I have in the last few years. Anyone else notice it seems to be a fairly recent phenomenon?


I am terrified that due to the prevalence of your/you're and there/their errors that I see here everyday I am going to start making these errors myself

quote:

I was going to comment on that apostrophe thing in my post, but decided to stick to one gripe at a time.

I usually read them as "word" + "is". My brother herds goat's. Goat is? Okey-doke.


My brain has no problem comprehending the missing apostrophe but stumbles over the incorrectly added one, so that is why I find wrong irritating but shortcut not - wrong is jarring and slows me down.

(in reply to MistressDarkArt)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Intelligence vs writing - 1/11/2012 3:55:42 PM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Hell, I don't even know what a dangly participle IS!


Dangling participle fan: "Hiccup."
English school teacher: "Up I hic."



An example of rewriting a perfectly good sentence for grammar nazis:

"This is the sort of language up with which I will not put."

So, yeah, it's less exciting than it sounds.

Like with every aspect of grammar, if you are a native speaker, and you can produce the sentence, and it is intelligible to other native speakers, it is grammatically correct. Whether it fits with any particular clique's prescription for "proper" use of the language is another matter. But for objective purposes, grammatical correctness is defined by a form being used by a native speaker, and readily understood by one. Similarly, a word is English if its meaning is readily understood by the average native speaker, objectively speaking. This goes for all languages.

And virtually all areas have people trying to apply their preferred brand of straitjacket to this beautiful, organic process we call language to trim it down to what they think it should be. I still remember laughing my ass off when the language council up here tried to front the idea that a certain computer term should be rendered as something that translates back into English as "assembly-line based fast-jizzing memories" and sounds precisely that ridiculous in Norwegian.

Don't worry about prescriptive language unless you're trying to demonstrate clique membership, or gain approval from a clique that attaches much importance to adherence to their preferred set of prescriptions. Language is to communicate or play with, or to do art in, not something to be cast into molds and reduced to the lowest common denominator. In fact, as far as I can tell, the lowest common denominator is silence. I sure wish prescriptivists would go for that.

We don't need to know what a dangling whatnot is. If it's dangling, it's cause we want it to.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Intelligence vs writing - 1/11/2012 4:19:34 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

Course, way I see it is, y'all reading this got no problem. I's understood jus' fine, talk nice 'n proper, or make like ain't got shit for education. Don't matter nothin' there's a few pieces missin' my sentences. Gone done it right, mightn't get all them complaints throwed at me, either. More importaint, won' be a single pearl lost ta swine, 'n that ain't no loss, 'atsa win. It be spellin' or grammar, intelligence don't pay no mind ta that, ain't words that matter. Meanin', that where 's at.


yeah, boy, where we com from, thats purdy writin. dont you let it wurry your purdy lil head. we aint all that fancy n stuff down in tha south.

but, in da 'Burgh, yinz might be in trouble. dependin on da ahr, some may thin yur ig'nernt, some jaggy. dont matter nun.



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Intelligence vs writing - 1/11/2012 5:45:08 PM   
Casteele


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Joined: 12/10/2011
From: Near Sacramento, California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Who is to say some arent trying?

My son is a perfect example. College educated, smart as a whip. Great grades. Catches on to most mechanical things quickly. Yet, cant write worth a damn. He even hated reading until he discovered Goosebumps. That sparked his inner desire to articulate himself better. He now writes short stories and has other people read and edit as needed. He knows his limitations. That doesnt mean he doesnt try.

I realize some do not. That doesnt mean everyone who posts poorly isnt struggling.

Nor does it mean they are, but I get your point, and wish I had thought out my own post more thoroughly.. I agree with a large part of what I think you're trying to get across here.. That we do tend to judge very quickly and harshly on things which don't really give us enough valid evidence to make such judgments, correct? But I'd say I'm more sitting on the fence than anything; Some people write in a manner that I find atrocious in terms of grammar and/or spelling, but somehow I don't get the feeling that they're clueless or dumb.. Probably because their content comes across as actually having given it some thought. Likewise, I've read some other atrocious writings that were so void of anything worthwhile that I did and still do feel they were complete morons.

To make an effort does not mean to make sure it's perfect, as anyone who's read my posts will surely point out I make many spelling, grammar and even semantic mistakes, all of which I should know better than to make. But it's also true that I am a little lazy on forums like this, and don't care for completely correct and perfect writing, myself. And there's also those who take a little creative license and play with the language, or want to add an "accent" to written words. In most cases, however, I think it's pretty clear that they are doing just that, and since I rarely see anyone but the grammar police jump on it, I suspect most people do somehow sense the difference.

Honestly, I give your son two thumbs up for trying to do his best within his limitations, even if it does contain many mistakes and errors. To me, that is what I mean when I say "try"; There are still honest mistakes, but few careless mistakes.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Intelligence vs writing - 1/11/2012 6:02:47 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

Nor does it mean they are, but I get your point, and wish I had thought out my own post more thoroughly.. I agree with a large part of what I think you're trying to get across here.. That we do tend to judge very quickly and harshly on things which don't really give us enough valid evidence to make such judgments, correct?


We all judge... everyone does... and its based upon our own set of criteria. I just see so many get slammed for spelling errors, punctuation mistakes, ect ect... but the message is still there, still pertinent, the question asked still valid.

quote:

But I'd say I'm more sitting on the fence than anything; Some people write in a manner that I find atrocious in terms of grammar and/or spelling, but somehow I don't get the feeling that they're clueless or dumb..


Thats one of my points.

quote:

Probably because their content comes across as actually having given it some thought. Likewise, I've read some other atrocious writings that were so void of anything worthwhile that I did and still do feel they were complete morons.


And I have seen the grammatically correct posts filled with $100 words that say nothing, absolutely nothing, at all.

quote:

Honestly, I give your son two thumbs up for trying to do his best within his limitations, even if it does contain many mistakes and errors. To me, that is what I mean when I say "try"; There are still honest mistakes, but few careless mistakes.


His pc is full of grammar and writing programs.. and he still makes mistakes. But he tries hard, and gets upset at himself when someone hands him back something that is full of corrections.

As far as my own, I will correct for a misspelled word... not for punctuation.

Thats where I draw the line.

Its my battle field.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Casteele)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Intelligence vs writing - 1/11/2012 6:18:24 PM   
Casteele


Posts: 655
Joined: 12/10/2011
From: Near Sacramento, California, USA
Status: offline 		Anyhow, in my reply to tazzy, I only touched on something that struck me earlier today while thinking on this and similar topics..

If you haven't done so recently, go read the Introductions sections. Especially, take a look at some of the people who initially say things that others jump on and either ridicule or offer comments and advice given on how to find that special girl (not so much guys, though, for obvious reasons). What most of those comments and advice basically boil down to is "It's all about how you present yourself." given that this is mainly a text-based forum, we have little else to go on but the written word. So to that extent, yes, I think anyone who wants to be taken seriously does need to make a genuine effort to present themselves in a manner conductive to being taken seriously. I even find it rather interesting in observing that many of those who do not take this seriously and/or don't care to be taken seriously, still tend to present themselves with reasonable writing styles.

To approach it from another angle.. What if I wrote an intro like this: "Here I am, girls, the Dom of your dreams. Worship me and offer me sex because I am horny and demand it!" (Read the rest of this before responding to that, please! :-P) Then imagine if some girl said something snarky in response. Now, imagine that everyone else were to criticize her by saying something to the effect of "Hey, don't judge him because he's horny! He's probably a great guy, well-breed, well-mannered, highly intelligent, the perfect catch for a girl like you! Don't assume someone is not intelligent just because they are horny!" I can't see that happening, can you? More likely, most of us will immediately think the guy wasn't exactly very intelligent after posting something like that.

Yet, all we have is his writing to go on, no? So, yes, just about every one of us does judge other people's intelligence, among other things, by how they write--although more specifically, how they present themselves through their writing.

(in reply to Casteele)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Intelligence vs writing - 1/11/2012 6:30:39 PM   
Casteele


Posts: 655
Joined: 12/10/2011
From: Near Sacramento, California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
We all judge... everyone does... and its based upon our own set of criteria. I just see so many get slammed for spelling errors, punctuation mistakes, ect ect... but the message is still there, still pertinent, the question asked still valid.

Indeed, and I agree with you to a large degree, because I do see many people slam on mistakes that, IMO, should just be overlooked because they are not very severe mistakes, or such common usage that communication is achieved, even if the wires are not of the finest quality gold, so to speak.

quote:


And I have seen the grammatically correct posts filled with $100 words that say nothing, absolutely nothing, at all.

Having re-read some of my own posts, I've face-palmed a few times with that exact thought. "Boy, I used a lot of big, fancy words, and yet said absolutely nothing! I hope no one calls me out on it!" :-P

quote:


His pc is full of grammar and writing programs.. and he still makes mistakes. But he tries hard, and gets upset at himself when someone hands him back something that is full of corrections.

I think that is a key word here. We all make mistakes, and mistakes are forgivable. Even repeated mistakes when it comes to grammar and such. To be honest, you've got me thinking as well.. Right now, I imagine him reading some of the posts where people viscously attack simple/common/honest mistakes and he's probably thinking if he were to try posting, he'd be so humiliated that he's afraid to post anywhere people might criticize him; Too afraid to make any mistakes. And that would truly be sad for us as we'd never get the chance to see if he can contribute something that would make a difference to some of us.

ETA: Keep encouraging him to give it his best, and to not feel so bad when it's not perfect, or even still contains many errors. I do believe that most of us still get a good feel for when someone is truly trying, and tend to go easier on them or even offer them helpful tips and advice rather than criticizing negatively. And don't let those few that still do react in a negative manner dissuade him from trying. I learned long ago that life is more like an active dairy pasture--Chances are pretty good that before you can get to milk the cow, you're going to step in quite a few patches of cow shit along the way.


< Message edited by Casteele -- 1/11/2012 6:37:46 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Intelligence vs writing - 1/11/2012 6:45:55 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Casteele
Indeed, and I agree with you to a large degree, because I do see many people slam on mistakes that, IMO, should just be overlooked because they are not very severe mistakes, or such common usage that communication is achieved, even if the wires are not of the finest quality gold, so to speak.

I think that is a key word here. We all make mistakes, and mistakes are forgivable. Even repeated mistakes when it comes to grammar and such. To be honest, you've got me thinking as well.. Right now, I imagine him reading some of the posts where people viscously attack simple/common/honest mistakes and he's probably thinking if he were to try posting, he'd be so humiliated that he's afraid to post anywhere people might criticize him; Too afraid to make any mistakes. And that would truly be sad for us as we'd never get the chance to see if he can contribute something that would make a difference to some of us.


I will add something that I know I do, fairly frequently. If I care about a person, in some way; if I like them and I know that they're intelligent but just have trouble communicating effectively, I will try to help them because I care enough that I want others to recognize them as intelligent also.

I will point out to someone with whom I have some kind of friendship that they're using "there" incorrectly or that "your" is possessive and "you're" is a contraction that means "you are". I do that because, like it or not, people are "judged" by how they present themselves.

So, if I correct someone's spelling or grammar or whatever, it is because I like them and I want other people to see them as I do ... or, sometimes, I am just being a snarky, pedantic, sumbich.

No, seriously, there is a difference, though. When debating on here or other forums, I don't correct peoples' spelling, grammar, etc. because that is a whole different arena where people are being adversarial by definition. Correcting people there would be seen as a personal attack and a personal attack means you have no facts to argue so, you've lost the debate.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Intelligence vs writing - 1/12/2012 7:45:05 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		Well the wya I learneed to wrtie it

Lemme start over:

The way I learned to write is to get my thought down on paper, stream of consciousness style - spelling grammar, etc., are all addressed in the rewrite, which is really the hard work of writing, for me, often mostly a matter of converting comma splices into discrete sentences.

When posting, I try to edit on the fly, but I always miss a few things, think of it as a rough draft.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Intelligence vs writing - 1/12/2012 7:50:33 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		Bottom line however, is that writing is a form of communication first and foremost. I'm not going to mock anyone's attempt to communicate, and I consider that a mark of character in myself, given that when it comes to pedantic streaks, I think anyone will agree, I've got a doozy.

< Message edited by xssve -- 1/12/2012 7:51:12 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Intelligence vs writing - 1/12/2012 7:57:19 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I like to remain nebulous.  I rarely post any really thoughtful or intelligent shit any more. Too long in Politics, I suppose.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 1/12/2012 7:58:02 AM >

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RE: Intelligence vs writing - 1/12/2012 8:02:35 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
The way I learned to write is to get my thought down on paper, stream of consciousness style - spelling grammar, etc., are all addressed in the rewrite, which is really the hard work of writing, for me, often mostly a matter of converting comma splices into discrete sentences.


I write exactly the same way. I sit down and just click-clack away and many of my thoughts need to be edited out, later. I knew I was getting better at writing when I had no trouble going back over what I'd written and understood what I was trying to say well enough to actually do the editing!

I will relate a funny story, though.

My first writing job was for an online news and op/ed website. I was writing a piece about the ERA (or womens' rights/equality or some such) and I included: " ... these are people that rolled up their sleeves and went to work and kept their families together because their husbands were off, fighting a war with Germany because that idiot Hitler decided it was a good idea to kill Jews (and rightly so) ..."

My editor (A Jewish fellow) called me up and said: "Michael, please tell me that you were confused when you were writing this piece?"

Obviously, the parenthetical part should have been placed after the word: "Germany".



Peace and comfort,



Michael

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Intelligence vs writing - 1/12/2012 1:34:14 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Just as a jokey aside and because I couldn't find the other thread to post it in
I wanted to share this



_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 140
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