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RE: The actions of a few disgrace all allied troops. - 1/12/2012 5:01:06 PM   
Miserlou


Posts: 264
Joined: 12/20/2011
Status: offline 		no mine wasn't the original comment, that you think it was is just more of your bull and twisting. dance all you want, but the facts are clear. i asked a very specific question based on another posters remark, making a very clear point. you decided to take it off on an asinine tangent about posters on this board as if that were in any way relevant to anything i or anybody said.


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and the history books forgot about us

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: The actions of a few disgrace all allied troops. - 1/12/2012 5:11:28 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Miserlou

no mine wasn't the original comment, that you think it was is just more of your bull and twisting. dance all you want, but the facts are clear. i asked a very specific question based on another posters remark, making a very clear point. you decided to take it off on an asinine tangent about posters on this board as if that were in any way relevant to anything i or anybody said.


tangents are taken, you took a comment, made a big deal out of it, and I simply responded where you can find people who like torture on this particular board.
Asinine?
not in my opinion.OTOH the fuss you have made is beyond asinine
YMMV
now why not agree to disagree?
can you do that?

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(in reply to Miserlou)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: The actions of a few disgrace all allied troops. - 1/12/2012 5:13:12 PM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DivineDemise
Its not just the U.S who has done such things many others have & worse. For instance Hitler, Stalin, Osama, Saddam.

Umm, three of those four were financed by the USA. Stalin, the fourth, is alleged to have suffered from a brain tumor.

(in reply to DivineDemise)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: The actions of a few disgrace all allied troops. - 1/12/2012 5:36:51 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		This post is a little off topic but I think it does relate. I made a comment earlier and it was more or less ignored but I think it is very important when it comes to the root of these soldiers actions.

I asked or wondered what would make normal kids, just a few years out from under the roofs of their parents, act in such a abhorrent manner.

What if they were traumatized in some manner…would it make a difference to you. Say they were full of hate because of the actions of the people they killed. What if those very same men killed some of their comrades. What if they had seen the results of Taliban atrocities to both civilian and their fellow Marines.

If all, or any of the above were true, it would not justify their actions…at least looking from outside the war zone and thousands of miles away… but…Would it not at least give some understanding and a measure of sympathy that these men were reduced to desecrating the dead because of the fatigue of war?

Could it be possible that these men were suffering from an acute stress disorder and in need of profession help.

Rather than automatically jumping on the bad Americans wagon would not a balanced approach to this story be warranted? There is nothing wrong of course in condemning this terrible dehumanizing act but perhaps we should look for the reasons for these actions.

Butch

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Profile   Post #: 124
RE: The actions of a few disgrace all allied troops. - 1/12/2012 5:44:35 PM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
perhaps we should look for the reasons for these actions

They are animals, that is why.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: The actions of a few disgrace all allied troops. - 1/12/2012 5:49:59 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		OK what made them so...remember you are an animal as well... if they could be changed so could you.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: The actions of a few disgrace all allied troops. - 1/12/2012 6:03:20 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Oh, I know that I am an animal. In fact, someone from the WWF today asked me what my favorite animals is in an effort to make me cough up money. I told him: "I am".

The difference is that I will not piss on dead people.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: The actions of a few disgrace all allied troops. - 1/12/2012 6:06:56 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		I piss on live people! LOL

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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

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(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: The actions of a few disgrace all allied troops. - 1/12/2012 6:10:27 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		To the topic, without reading more than a sampling of the predictable responses:

If this was the cathartic act those Marines needed to get through the horrors they were facing, I'm good with it. Letting it be videotaped seems pretty stupid.

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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: The actions of a few disgrace all allied troops. - 1/12/2012 6:10:31 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Thats consensual:) anything else will get you arrested, put on the sex offender list if caught doing it in "public".



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Profile   Post #: 130
RE: The actions of a few disgrace all allied troops. - 1/12/2012 6:12:06 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
If this was the cathartic act those Marines needed to get through the horrors they were facing, I'm good with it.

I am not. Nor should anybody.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: The actions of a few disgrace all allied troops. - 1/12/2012 6:14:58 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Codes of discipline are lipstick on a pig.

Precisely the point of view that leads to this sort of thing happening.

K.


It is war that is the pig; not the soldiers who acted as savages. They are victims of the larger enterprise of senseless slaughter. What is the fucking purpose of 130,000 American troops in Afghanastan? Why are they there except to shield each side in the partisan political divide on the homefront? So, that each side is immunised from the charge of having "lost afghanistan" or for being "weak on terror/ national defense." We are at war for ten years in a shit hole where we have no strategic or vital interest and where the DOD estimates a stalemate at best. Madness.



< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/12/2012 6:28:52 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: The actions of a few disgrace all allied troops. - 1/12/2012 6:17:57 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		There must be some purpose to the USA invading Afghanistan; otherwise why take the trouble to build WTC1,2 and 7?

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: The actions of a few disgrace all allied troops. - 1/12/2012 6:18:38 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
If this was the cathartic act those Marines needed to get through the horrors they were facing, I'm good with it.

I am not. Nor should anybody.




Your opinion is noted, and appropriately filed.

I'm also quite ok with desecrating graves as an act of catharsis, again with the "now that's fucking stupid" rule for video.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 1/12/2012 6:43:18 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 134
RE: The actions of a few disgrace all allied troops. - 1/12/2012 6:24:24 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miserlou

quote:

FFS America the "city on a hill" now applauds torture.
i don't, nobody i know does. so just who is this "america" who applauds torture?


We acquiese. We applaud by our silence. We turn our faces away. Business as usual. Why have the torturers not been brought before a Court of Law? Why do we tolerate "enhanced interrogation means" - water boarding, sensory, deprivation, forced posture for days, freezing water hosing, rendition? Congress votes to detain American citizens indefinately without warrent. We are complicit by our silence.

(in reply to Miserlou)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: The actions of a few disgrace all allied troops. - 1/12/2012 6:29:55 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Codes and discipline are the difference between soldiers and armed thugs.


Codes of discipline are lipstick on a pig.

Only to those without honor. I would like to think more of our own soldiers than that they are on a par with pigs.

quote:

Atrocities occur in all wars b/c all wars are Atrocities. Q.E. fucking D. There can be no such thing as honorable war. There never has been. Wars are the most despicable, sordid, and horrific of all human endeavors. You cannot prettify them with honor codes of conduct.

And I don't think that's in question. You can, however, further sully them.

quote:

FFS America the "city on a hill" now applauds torture. So, how can we show outrage over a bit of piss? Ah, cuz it was caught on camera is why.

Perhaps that works for you. I don't think the camera is relevant, other than inflaming the situation.


see my response at 146 and 151

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/12/2012 6:30:54 PM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: The actions of a few disgrace all allied troops. - 1/12/2012 6:37:23 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wittynamehere

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Each and every incident is like a recruiting ad for the Taliban and endangers all the decent and brave troops (the majority) serving in Afghanistan.

These guys are paid to brutalize, terrorize, control, injure, and kill brown human beings for a living. That's what they do. That's why we call them "brave and decent", courageous, noble, patriotic, etc.
But when they act immature and pee on those they've terrorized and killed, we say it went too far.
I say it went too far when we hired them to terrorize and kill their fellow man.



Exactly !!!!

(in reply to wittynamehere)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: The actions of a few disgrace all allied troops. - 1/12/2012 6:55:32 PM   
Miserlou


Posts: 264
Joined: 12/20/2011
Status: offline
quote:

If this was the cathartic act those Marines needed to get through the horrors they were facing, I'm good with it.
i'm not. they have disgraced the uniform.

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Misery

and the history books forgot about us

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: The actions of a few disgrace all allied troops. - 1/12/2012 6:55:43 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Codes of discipline are lipstick on a pig.


Aside from what Kirata said, which is absolutely credible, I would also point out that voicing that opinion, or evidencing that attitude, is one of the shortest routes to a dishonorable discharge around these parts that I know of, but not before the CO tears the offender a new one. If it's one of those I know, said new hole is likely to be very thoroughly reamed out, too. Our soldiers are professionals doing a difficult and demanding job. We have no use for armed mobs.


See my reply to Kirata at #146

quote:



You can't seriously be comparing the present war in Afghanistan with Nanking, Armenia or Congo?

When mothers beg your troops to kill them that they may be mercifully rid of the memories of what those same troops have done to their daughters; when there are literal rivers of blood along the roads to the mass graves; when the remains of eaten humans litter the firepits and men play football with the unborn torn from the womb; then you may have a point. Meanwhile, you're just displaying a frightening level of ignorance or indifference.

Nobody's claiming that Afghanistan is a walk in the park, but your statement requires some tempering perspective.


Just a matter of degrees. How many Iraqi civilians were killed, how many were driven from their homes because America went to war on false assumptions? How many American troops were killed and wounded for that senseless neocon adventure?

quote:



Without defining the term 'honorable', you might as well say "There can be no such thing as a twiddlybangwhooshy war."

I get that fewer people in the western hemisphere have any meaningful concept of honor these days, and that the term has had varied meanings across different periods and cultures, but that doesn't make it a meaningless one, nor one devoid of a theme. If you wish to contend that war cannot be fought in an honorable manner, you will have to provide your definition of 'honorable' for reference, as it may well have a different meaning than what some other posters read into it. The usual colloquial sense of "well regarded by the public" clearly doesn't work when describing war.


People die and are maimed and you play with semantics. FFS!!

quote:



Clearly, you have been spared exposure to a wide range of human endeavours.

Either that, or you're conflating quantity with quality.


Clearly you have no concept of what shit-in-your-pants atrocities and blow-your-head-off artillary takes place on battlefields. If you can cite more horrific activities please do so.

To quote the Brando character Special Forces Coionel Walter E. Kurtz in Apocalyse Now: Oh, the humanity! the humanity!


(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: The actions of a few disgrace all allied troops. - 1/12/2012 6:58:31 PM   
Miserlou


Posts: 264
Joined: 12/20/2011
Status: offline 		you might be silent, but i'm not. i write my reps regularly demanding they act on these things, and actively campaign to have them defeated when they don't. again, don't mistake "your" silence for the actions of anybody else.

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Misery

and the history books forgot about us

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 140
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