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Does effort matter? - 1/15/2012 8:11:47 AM   
Asherscorp1


Posts: 143
Joined: 3/6/2011
Status: offline 		Inspired by another recent thread dedicated to "appearance" I would like to ask something that has been on my mind a lot lately. When you go to a munch/party (or just out in the vanilla world for that matter) does the effort you put into your appearance matter? For myself, if I walk into a party and the people are ratty, dirty, unkempt it is immediately off-putting. They don't have to be pretty, thin, or have the "style" I do but pajamas and torn jeans comes across to me as disrespectful to everyone else. As though it wasn't worth it for them to even attempt presentability for the event. Is this simply shallow, or is it a matter of showing you care enough about yourself and respect the venue enough to at least try?

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RE: Does effort matter? - 1/15/2012 8:25:05 AM   
HisPet21


Posts: 395
Status: offline 		I don't go to munches, so I can't speak directly about them. However, when I go out into the vanilla world, I try to look presentable. For me, its just a matter of professionalism. I go to university right now, and showing up to class unkempt and a mess is disrespectful to my peers and my professor. It also makes me look unprofessional, which could back fire, should I ever request a letter of rec. Looking nice and smelling pretty (i.e. good hygiene) are just a way to show that I take the people I am with and the situation I am in seriously.

Given this, however, there are times when I go out unkempt. Like, I just rolled out of bed and need to run to the grocery store to buy some milk for breakfast. I don't exactly take the grocery store outing seriously, nor the people there, so I don't mind walking in with my PJ's on. You can tell how I feel about an event by how well dressed I am. It's common knowledge, really. You wear a suit to an interview, and a tie to work, don't you? You wear worn out jeans to wash the car. How you dress is a direct measure of how seriously you take a given situation.

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RE: Does effort matter? - 1/15/2012 8:36:51 AM   
Clickofheels


Posts: 603
Joined: 10/23/2011
Status: offline 		At the risk of getting "sliced and diced," (which I'm sure we BOTH will for even thinking this <LOL>), yes, the effort that I put into my appearance matters. And why?

First of all, my (now deceased) Mom always said..."You may be poor, but there's no excuse for either you or your surroundings being dirty." Although I didn't grow up poor, we were definitely taught that cleanliness and personal hygiene are important...if for no other reason, at least for one's health and well being!!

Secondly, I think the effort you put into your appearance says a lot about your self respect...that you matter to yourself. And if you matter to yourself, others will matter to you as well...and they of you. So no, O.P., I don't think you are being shallow.

And thirdly, I believe putting an effort into the "outward" you, makes getting to know the "inner" you that much more inviting to others.

Respectfully,
Ms Click.

(From now on, if you feel you are unable to make CIVIL arguments about my posts, you are most welcome to disregard them, and I shall your posts as well.
Thank you! <Smiles>)

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RE: Does effort matter? - 1/15/2012 8:57:34 AM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline 		I think depending on time and place, the time and thought that one has put into presenting ones-self does matter.

It is also true that one of the symptoms of depression is not caring for one's personal hygiene very well. In other words, when we encounter people who are unkempt in settings where you would expect them to be put together (i.e., at a lunch) it may be signaling other things about them that we might want to consider. Again, I don't mean everyone who is clinically depressed is unkempt, I just mean there are many psychological issues that can affect one's hygiene and presentability. So it is possible that historically, presenting ones-self in a neat way was a way of signaling that you were stable, and so subconsciously most of us react favorably to the clean and presentable. Just pure speculation on my part.

With that said, what constitutes "respectable" dressing can change over time, and can be very much open to interpretation. I may have a more limited set of options for what I wear to a professional meeting; much more leeway with how I choose to dress for a date. But regardless, in both instances, I would want to be clean and neat.

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RE: Does effort matter? - 1/15/2012 9:09:06 AM   
Toppingfrmbottom


Posts: 6528
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		If my clothes are clean and I am clean I am happy. I don't worry who'll care or not if I don't look put together , or made any effort 99 percent of the time. For really nice events or special occasions I try to put something nicer than normal on, but not for munches and general going out.

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RE: Does effort matter? - 1/15/2012 9:11:27 AM   
Casssy


Posts: 21
Joined: 12/22/2011
Status: offline 		For me the effort I put into my looks equal the importance I feel for the occasion. I am not going to bother a lot if I go to the nearest grocery store, but for my kids graduation ceremony I would probably spend hours to look presentable.
Dirty and torn? That is not an option even if I am alone at home. I dont think I can understand why would someone want to walk around in a public place like that unless its some kind of misplaced late puberty rebellion. But then I am 48 and was raised to be a "proper lady". I would never feel comfortable looking like I got out of the mud fight on the street.


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RE: Does effort matter? - 1/15/2012 9:14:56 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		It depends on the party.

I've been to parties after sports events and the athletes are anything but dressed up. Taking their cues from the athletes, neither are the other participants.

Additionally Niner in that other thread mentioned that he was a doorman at an exclusive club and found that the sharpest dressers were bricklayers and such whereas the ones in torn jeans were heart surgeons and others of that ilk.

I remember years ago being told that I wasn't rich enough to dress as badly as I was. And that's a clue, those who have nothing to prove don't try desperately to cover up who they are. The ones who worry the most about their dress are those who don't believe they have any true substance which would make them wanted.


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RE: Does effort matter? - 1/15/2012 9:16:16 AM   
Epytropos


Posts: 699
Joined: 7/23/2011
Status: offline 		It depends a lot on setting. I'm not all that interested in effort level as a default mode. Most of the women I've been with are artsy hippies and backpackers - not two groups known for their well-kempt appearance or dedication to cleanliness. I am pretty shallow and if I don't find someone quite attractive it's just not going to happen, but attraction is not all that much a function of attention to detail for me. That being said, in a formal setting where a level of decorum is expected, someone who shows up looking like a walking impropriety is not going to work either. A sub is a representative of her dom, and someone who shows up unwashed and underdressed makes me look ill-bred and classless. Of course, I can and have trained girls who lacked the experience to know what was correct and incorrect in certain situations to be consummate ladies, so again that's not going to be a dealbreaker so long as it isn't an active resistance to the concept of behaving with class and decorum. While I'm not a snob (ok not a HUGE snob anyway) I do enjoy the finer things, and I do expect someone who chooses to pursue them with me to behave in such a way as not to ruin them, just as I would expect someone to show up to an artists' revel wearing something other than an evening gown. If you're going to do something, do it properly.

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RE: Does effort matter? - 1/15/2012 9:19:26 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		Of course it matters! And of course you ought to expect people to draw some conclusions about your appearance.

But context matters too.

At an informal pub-munch, surely you'd expect a mix of dress codes / styles / degrees of effort

For a trip to a classy nightclub you'd expect a different mix

For a trip to the latex night at some super hip club another

For a 15 mile hike through the forest another...

It's also not unreasonable to draw conclusions from people's appearance... so the person who rocked up to the night club in tattered unwashed jeans would give a negative impression, just as meeting up to start a long walk in the woods in a leopard print lycra mini-dress might cause people to judge.

But.... appearances only give an indication of who someone is (or who they want to appear to be), and it is foolish to draw overarching conclusions from appearance alone (And this is not a personal attack on anyone individually, it is just a statement of my general belief).

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RE: Does effort matter? - 1/15/2012 9:25:20 AM   
Clickofheels


Posts: 603
Joined: 10/23/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP


... those who have nothing to prove don't try desperately to cover up who they are. The ones who worry the most about their dress are those who don't believe they have any true substance which would make them wanted.




That's an interesting point of view, actually! I've never looked at someone who practices personal hygiene and is conscious about dressing nicely...(ie clean, untorn, pressed, etc. clothes)... as covering up who they are. I mean literally, covering up yes!! (Winters get darned cold around here! <LOL>) But figuratively? Hmm....

On the other hand, wouldn't someone who wanted to dress nicely believe they DO have substance and self respect?
I like to feel nice for myself, first and foremost. What anyone else thinks is secondary to me. (Smiles and shrugs)
But of course we are both entitled to our separate opinions.

Thanks!
MsClick

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RE: Does effort matter? - 1/15/2012 9:31:31 AM   
Clickofheels


Posts: 603
Joined: 10/23/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

But.... appearances only give an indication of who someone is (or who they want to appear to be), and it is foolish to draw overarching conclusions from appearance alone (And this is not a personal attack on anyone individually, it is just a statement of my general belief).



Hello crazyml! (since I really don't know you, I'm saying hello. <smiles>)

I didn't get the impression that the O.P. said a person should base their entire opinion about someone due to the way they dress. I thought she was asking if the way we dress matters to US?

(Shrugs) Maybe I read it wrong, though....

Ms Click

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RE: Does effort matter? - 1/15/2012 9:37:44 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		Hello back Clickofheels!

Oh, goodness, no - I didn't get the impression that the OP on this thread said a person should base their entire opinion about someone due to the way they dress either!

Asherscorp1 - just for clarity I don't disagree with your POV... I think it does depend on the context/venue etc.

My comment about it being foolish to draw overarching conclusions from appearance alone was just a general point (not unrelated to the thread that prompted your OP)

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RE: Does effort matter? - 1/15/2012 10:02:44 AM   
Kaliko


Posts: 3381
Joined: 9/25/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherscorp1

Inspired by another recent thread dedicated to "appearance" I would like to ask something that has been on my mind a lot lately. When you go to a munch/party (or just out in the vanilla world for that matter) does the effort you put into your appearance matter? For myself, if I walk into a party and the people are ratty, dirty, unkempt it is immediately off-putting. They don't have to be pretty, thin, or have the "style" I do but pajamas and torn jeans comes across to me as disrespectful to everyone else. As though it wasn't worth it for them to even attempt presentability for the event. Is this simply shallow, or is it a matter of showing you care enough about yourself and respect the venue enough to at least try?


Well, I said it on the other thread - I think some of the pajama pants out there these days are just adorable and/or non-pajama looking enough that they look like sweatpants. So comfy, too. Would I wear them to work? No. (Actually, I don't even own any.) But would I wear them to the store to grab some milk? Yep.

My luck, though, the man of my dreams will be in the grocery store at the time I have my hair in a scrunchy, pajamas, and mismatched socks on my feet.

Torn jeans also wouldn't bother me. That's more fashion choice than anything else.



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RE: Does effort matter? - 1/15/2012 10:12:16 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		To ME, for ME, personal hygiene and how I look in public, matters.

What is acceptable for ME, to ME, may or may not be considered acceptable to someone else. For some it may be more than their personal acceptable and for others, much less so.

In viewing others there are certainly things I notice. There are things that either attract me or repulse. Just as an example, wearing camoflage, anything with 'The Rebel Flag' or lack of personal hygiene. Crusty teeth and dirty nails, long nails on men. Women that dress in clothes that don't work for their age, weight, etc....or wear their hair the way they probably did 20 years ago, black eyeliner and light blue eye shadow. Most sparkly things and animal print. Most examples on PeopleofWalmart.com They are all things that give me an inner 'Ewww!" There are also inherited physical characteristics that I do not find appealing. BUT, they do NOT make that person less wonderful. They do not make that person unworthy of love, friendship, or a whole host of other wonderful things. They just make them, not sexy, to ME.

The things that make a person not sexy to me, are characteristics that fit many of the people I love dearly. They all have people that found them sexy and appealing. Worthy of a relationship. If someone attacked them in a snarky degrading manner in my presence, the attacker would likely regret it.

To ME, just because I have personal standards for ME, does not make me right for everyone else. They are simply my own personal preferences. My personal standards are not across the board standards for all human kind. Just my personal stuff. It is not for ME to define 'effort' and the acceptable, or unacceptable, amount of effort.......for anyone else.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 1/15/2012 10:13:24 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Does effort matter? - 1/15/2012 10:12:48 AM   
SilverBoat


Posts: 257
Joined: 7/26/2006
Status: offline 		Maybe there's some old saying that should have been made up, about how appearances can be deceiving but first impressions are forever?


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RE: Does effort matter? - 1/15/2012 10:14:39 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

To ME, for ME, personal hygiene and how I look in public, matters.

What is acceptable for ME, to ME, may or may not be considered acceptable to someone else. For some it may be more than their personal acceptable and for others, much less so.

In viewing others there are certainly things I notice. There are things that either attract me or repulse. Just as an example, wearing camoflage, anything with 'The Rebel Flag' or lack of personal hygiene. Crusty teeth and dirty nails, long nails on men. Women that dress in clothes that don't work for their age, weight, etc....or wear their hair the way they probably did 20 years ago, black eyeliner and light blue eye shadow. Most sparkly things and animal print. Most examples on PeopleofWalmart.com They are all things that give me an inner 'Ewww!" There are also inherited physical characteristics that I do not find appealing. BUT, they do NOT make that person less wonderful. They do not make that person unworthy of love, friendship, or a whole host of other wonderful things. They just make them, not sexy, to ME.

The things that make a person not sexy to me, are characteristics that fit many of the people I love dearly. They all have people that found them sexy and appealing. Worthy of a relationship. If someone attacked them in a snarky degrading manner in my presence, the attacker would likely regret it.

To ME, just because I have personal standards for ME, does not make me right for everyone else. They are simply my own personal preferences. My personal standards are not across the board standards for all human kind. Just my personal stuff. It is not for ME to define 'effort' and the acceptable, or unacceptable, amount of effort.......for anyone else.


Kerbingo. QFT


_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

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RE: Does effort matter? - 1/15/2012 10:15:22 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I attend a lot of artsy events. Gallery shows and openings.

Some of the wealthiest people in attendance will be some of the most shabbily dressed.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Does effort matter? - 1/15/2012 10:22:35 AM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		I actually look at the venue....

For the dinner munch at the steak house, I dress up.

For the lunch munch at the chinese buffet... you get whatever I was wearing for the task that morning.. even if it is old jeans and faded t-shirt I was wearing to do yard work.

Stefan

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RE: Does effort matter? - 1/15/2012 10:27:53 AM   
Fornica


Posts: 2986
Status: offline 		This.
For myself, I'm OCD and wouldn't get the mail without my minimal makeup and grooming.
I don't give a rats ass what other people wear. I gave up caring about shit like that when I started watching children die in the oncology ward.
Perspective is a pretty underrated thing.
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml



But.... appearances only give an indication of who someone is (or who they want to appear to be), and it is foolish to draw overarching conclusions from appearance alone (And this is not a personal attack on anyone individually, it is just a statement of my general belief).



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There is no spoon.


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RE: Does effort matter? - 1/15/2012 10:29:57 AM   
BootyBoy


Posts: 108
Joined: 7/29/2008
Status: offline 		Well, I think perhaps it is a bit naive to think that all BDSMers are going to fit into the same munches regardless of their backgrounds, just by virtue of their shared interest in BDSM. A farmer from Arkansas and a commodities broker from Chicago are not necessarily going to be comfortable in the same crowd of people. I'm not saying this is always the case, but sometimes people from different backgrounds have different expectations and worldviews.

There are munches where everyone shows up in fetish gear, and ones where people just meet in casual attire. Their are dress-to-impress events that I have gone to, and their are people who don't have a suit and tie in their entire wardrobe. So I guess that one should just try and find the group of kinks terms that fit best within their own standards and interests, an remain non-judgmental about those who conform to different standards.

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