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Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/19/2012 2:26:27 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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Status: offline 		I am curious if anyone is aware of any studies that link propensity for adultery to other crimes that would render someone unfit for public office. For example, is it more likely that someone who commits adultery will lie, cheat, steal, kill in their lives outside of their relationship. I have seen lots of research about how someone who commits adultery is more likely to commit adultery again. I have also seen research supporting the notion that those who have divorced are more likely to divorce again. However, I have not seen any research linking adultery, in and of itself, with other crimes.

Of my close personal friends who have committed adultery - because it happens - most of the marriages (but not all) ended in divorce. But my friends are completely trustworthy otherwise. Several of them have very important professional positions where they have large responsibilities over things like money, other people's children, etc., and not one of my "adulterous" friends has ever been involved in anything even remotely resembling a scandal at work, despite their moral failing on the relationship front.

In addition, certainly those who are faithful to their lovers/spouses are not necessarily any more trustworthy or morally superior to others when it comes to matters outside the home. Certainly, Bernie Madoff was, I believe, faithful to his wife - but it didn't make him any more trustworthy to invest money with. I am sure there were many Nazis during WWII who were faithful to their spouses, but it certainly did not enable them to make better moral choices during the war.

And whether rightly or wrongly, I still have a soft spot for JFK politically, even though, of course, he was an adulterous husband.

Does adultery, in and of itself, really make someone unfit for political office? I would appreciate any information that anyone has on this as I try to sort this out in my own mind. Thanks.





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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/19/2012 2:57:31 PM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
Does adultery, in and of itself, really make someone unfit for political office?


Why not just come out and state your a Newt Gingrich supporter, without all the smoke and mirrors?

That said, I find the ones that keep making calls for 'faithfulness' with marriage come from conservatives in the USA. The same folks that impeached President Clinton for 'getting a blow job from a young jewish intern' but are right now, giving a 'free pass' to Mr. Gingrich for being unfaithful? Mr. Gingrich basically stated that someone that commits adultry is unfit to be president.....except him (cus the rules that govern all of us, just dont apply to him). And in a short time, we'll see whether or not conservatives have any moral principles left if they elect someone else to represent them in the general election. If they give Mr. Gingrich the GOP nomination, that will be a clear signal that conservative's 'Family Values' has been a complete farce and fantasy (since they've already broken close to 90% of the other family values rules).

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/19/2012 3:09:45 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Does adultery, in and of itself, really make someone unfit for political office?


I dont believe so. People fall out of love all the time... and fall in love with someone else. People also stay together for various reasons... children... money... habit.

Politicians who cheat make great headlines. They all know this. It will be discovered. Then held onto until the most damage can be done... everyone in political circles has ulterior motives... and its not always money.

They say Kennedy should have installed a revolving door on the WH with all the women floating in and out of his life. Jackie knew, there was no way she couldnt have. I think the difference then was protecting the family was paramount among all politicians. The phrase "But for the grace of god go I" comes to mind. The attitude was nudges in the back room, but no one spoke about it in public.

Those days are gone. Its now free fodder. Each side gleefully crowing about the other, while many of them are guilty of it themselves. No one caring about the spouse, who many times already knows and decided to turn a blind eye. No one cares about the children who are caught up in all the political mud slinging.

To me, marriage is private.. and personal.

Yet, when you build your political platform, and one of the legs holding that up are family values...

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/19/2012 3:20:28 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Does adultery, in and of itself, really make someone unfit for political office?



Of course not. Neither does any activity which might be socially taboo in and of itself. Ask it this way. Would pedophilia, in and of itself, really make someone unfit as a kindergarten teacher?

My bet is that people will justify differences between that and political office.




< Message edited by Yachtie -- 1/19/2012 3:22:32 PM >

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/19/2012 3:20:52 PM   
kalikshama


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Status: offline 		There's adultery then there's this, which sounds like a delusional sex addict.

Adultery:

Sex on the Desk - Oral Sex is More Easily Denied

Several newspapers are now reporting that Newt Gingrich is dating and basically living with Callista Bisek, a "willowy blond Congressional aide 23 years his junior." Biske, 33, has been spending nights at Gingrich's apartment near the Capitol and has her own key. In an amazing act of hypocrisy, Gingrich was apparently dating Bisek all during Clinton-Lewinsky adultery scandal, even as he proclaimed family values and bitterly criticized the President for his adultery.

Reporters and other Washington insiders have known about this relationship since 1994, even before Gingrich became Speaker of the House, but did not have any solid proof to report. In 1995, Vanity Fair magazine described Bisek as Gingrich's "frequent breakfast companion." Gingrich was married to Marianne Gingrich during all of that time, and just filed for divorce in August 1999.

Newt is apparently trying to create a new hybrid form, Christian adultery. According to MSNBC, Bisek sings in the National Shrine Choir, and Newt would often wait for her at the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception, listening to her sing while he read the Bible.

This is hardly the first time Newt has cheated, either. "It was common knowledge that Newt was involved with other women during his [first] marriage to Jackie. Maybe not on the level of John Kennedy. But he had girlfriends -- some serious, some trivial." -- Dot Crews, his campaign scheduler throughout the 70s. One woman, Anne Manning, has come forward and confirmed a relationship with him during the 1976 campaign. "We had oral sex. He prefers that modus operandi because then he can say, 'I never slept with her.'"

Kip Carter, his former campaign treasurer, was walking Newt's daughters back from a football game one day and cut across a driveway where he saw a car. "As I got to the car, I saw Newt in the passenger seat and one of the guys' wives with her head in his lap going up and down. Newt kind of turned and gave me this little-boy smile. Fortunately, Jackie Sue and Kathy were a lot younger and shorter then."

Footnotes at the bottom: http://www.realchange.org/gingrich.htm

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/19/2012 3:25:55 PM   
kalikshama


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Status: offline 		Family values?

http://www1.salon.com/news/1998/08/28news.html

The most notorious incident in Gingrich's marriage -- first reported by David Osborne in Mother Jones magazine in 1984 -- was when he cornered Jackie in her hospital room where she was recovering from uterine cancer surgery and insisted on discussing the terms of the divorce he was seeking.

Shortly after that infamous encounter, Gingrich refused to pay his alimony and child-support payments.
The First Baptist Church in his hometown had to take up a collection to support the family Gingrich had deserted.

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/19/2012 4:20:48 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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Status: offline 		For the record, I am not a Newt Gingrich supporter.

I believe this issue of adultery cuts across political beliefs. There are Republicans and Democrats alike who we know have committed adultery. My question is a much more general one of whether adultery can be separated from the issue of "fitness for public office".




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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/19/2012 4:29:18 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

The most notorious incident in Gingrich's marriage -- first reported by David Osborne in Mother Jones magazine in 1984 -- was when he cornered Jackie in her hospital room where she was recovering from uterine cancer surgery and insisted on discussing the terms of the divorce he was seeking.

Shortly after that infamous encounter, Gingrich refused to pay his alimony and child-support payments.
The First Baptist Church in his hometown had to take up a collection to support the family Gingrich had deserted.


These two things have much more to do with "fitness for public office" in my mind, than all of his adulterous acts put together. Someone who will not own up to personal financial responsibilities, particularly. And the hospital room incident shows him to be just unnecessarily cruel. I don't want someone cruel for a leader. That isn't a quality I normally associate with good leadership.

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/19/2012 4:35:27 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
The same folks that impeached President Clinton for 'getting a blow job from a young jewish intern' but are right now, giving a 'free pass' to Mr. Gingrich for being unfaithful?


When the Clinton-Lewinsky news first hit, there were plenty of Democrats who I know personally who felt Clinton was no longer fit to serve as President. Again, probably if you polled the American public a majority of them would say that someone who committed adultery was not fit to serve the country politically. I am just trying to understand why most Americans, regardless of political affiliation, feel that way. Because I'm not sure I see the connection. And I haven't been able to locate any psychological or sociological research to show a connection between adultery and other crimes.

I would like to see the candidates evaluated on their "merits" as a politician. And I am not sure how adultery fits into that evaluation.

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/19/2012 4:47:57 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Does adultery, in and of itself, really make someone unfit for political office?


I dont believe so. People fall out of love all the time... and fall in love with someone else. People also stay together for various reasons... children... money... habit.

To me, marriage is private.. and personal.

Yet, when you build your political platform, and one of the legs holding that up are family values...


I value your objective stance towards love and marriage - and that really, these are personal and private things.

I also agree that hypocrisy is not a good trait in politician - and so yes, if you are going to make yourself, the "family values" candidate, then it does look odd.

And while you did not speak to this, your post made me think of something else. I also separately have the question of what are "American family values" and would a majority of the country even agree on what they are (witness what is going on with the gay marriage battle or even birth control)? It is a wonderful term to bandy about because it resonates along with motherhood and apple pie, but really, what are "American family values". I know my definition probably doesn't match that of the majority.

And what to make of the fact that we are a nation founded on principles of freedom, equality and protection of the minority voice. Even if a majority of Americans define "family values" one way, does that mean the minority who define it differently should not have a political voice, political representation or protection from the will of the majority?

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/19/2012 4:58:16 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

And while you did not speak to this, your post made me think of something else. I also separately have the question of what are "American family values" and would a majority of the country even agree on what they are (witness what is going on with the gay marriage battle or even birth control)? It is a wonderful term to bandy about because it resonates along with motherhood and apple pie, but really, what are "American family values". I know my definition probably doesn't match that of the majority.


To me, family values means you hold the family dearest to your heart, even when the love is gone. That doesnt mean you have to stay together, but children are still your family, you still take care of them. You do whatever it takes to ensure they are cared for. Sadly, that is gone these days.

The idiot in office who owes his ex a lot of money in back child support is a perfect example. Joe Walsh, in my opinion, isnt fit for office. As a dead beat dad, he is in violation of the state's laws in which he was elected, and should he be found guilty, he be booted out of office.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 1/19/2012 5:02:00 PM >

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/19/2012 5:47:24 PM   
Miserlou


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Status: offline 		no. adultery doesn't make you unfit for public office, though it does show a propensity to deception and the ability to rationalize away keeping one's promises in favour of short-term gratification, which are not traits we really what we want in an office-holder. unfortunately, both of those traits tend to be very useful in our modern political climate, and perhaps that is why so many of our elected officials are adulterers (or maybe its the other way round).

another aspect of the issue is the hypocrisy aspect, that you have somebody who preaches family values and the sanctity of marriage, and he's boffing the intern every evening. that also demonstrates the ability to lie comfortably and also shows that the person in question can, and will, adopt or promote a position they do not actually believe in to further their political career. again, not something we really want in an elected official, but, something that makes for successful politicians.

these days, i am more and more of the opinion that the desire for public office in and of itself should disqualify one from public office.



< Message edited by Miserlou -- 1/19/2012 5:55:35 PM >

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/19/2012 6:18:18 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

I am curious if anyone is aware of any studies that link propensity for adultery to other crimes that would render someone unfit for public office. For example, is it more likely that someone who commits adultery will lie, cheat, steal, kill in their lives outside of their relationship. I have seen lots of research about how someone who commits adultery is more likely to commit adultery again. I have also seen research supporting the notion that those who have divorced are more likely to divorce again. However, I have not seen any research linking adultery, in and of itself, with other crimes.



I would reject any study like this.  Someone like Gingrich or other high-up folks represent a demographic that the study couldn't address.  Bluntly, for every JFK, Clinton, Foley, etc., there would be hundreds of Joe Six-Pack types, and they would skew the data so that it would be unusable for purposes of addressing the officeseekers.  Not to mention that the study would be addressing known adulterers, and the unknown adulterers would likely have a different profile (I assume they'd be smarter, for example).

I hate to say this, but the outsize drive and ego to become President IMO is the same one that drives to cheat.  I suspect that the percent of Presidents who have cheated is much greater than that of the general populace.  (Ike, JFK, LBJ, and Clinton were known to cheat, while Bush Sr pointedly dodged the question.  I would be very surprised if Carter cheated but wouldn't put it past Bush Jr.  I don't know about Reagan, Ford, and Obama.  So the cheating percentage of Presidents is between 50% and 90%.)  With that kind of percentage, I'm afraid that cheating Presidents are going to be a sad fact of life.


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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/19/2012 7:48:06 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
The idiot in office who owes his ex a lot of money in back child support is a perfect example. Joe Walsh, in my opinion, isnt fit for office. As a dead beat dad, he is in violation of the state's laws in which he was elected, and should he be found guilty, he be booted out of office.


Dead beat dads - yes, fall to the bottom in terms of leadership qualities.

Separately - - Normally, violation of state law as a standard for fitness for office would work, except there are a few laws on the books that I completely disagree with. Adultery is still a crime in many jurisdictions. In the State of New York, adultery is a Class B misdemeanor punishable by upto 90 days in jail or a $500 fine. Of course the law has not been enforced in decades. A stupid law as I feel that adultery is a private matter. What district attorney today would ever try to prosecute someone for adultery? Ridiculous. However, by the same token, what politician is going to lobby for the removal of this law and be seen as "anti-family values"? So the statute (legislation since 1907 in NY, prior to that adultery was NOT a crime in the state) will likely stay on the books. So, technically, yes, someone who has committed adultery has committed a crime (as defined by at least 24 states). But really, how many Americans really view adultery as a crime? A poll conducted in 1997 suggests around 35% of Americans think adultery should be a crime. (But this does imply 65% think it should not - a much more reasonable viewpoint in my mind.) I am sure there are other crimes on the books that also do not make sense, but this (adultery) is the main one I'm interested in trying to understand.


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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/19/2012 7:52:10 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
Bluntly, for every JFK, Clinton, Foley, etc., there would be hundreds of Joe Six-Pack types, and they would skew the data so that it would be unusable


Point well taken.

quote:

]I hate to say this, but the outsize drive and ego to become President IMO is the same one that drives to cheat....With that kind of percentage, I'm afraid that cheating Presidents are going to be a sad fact of life.


All the more reason to remove adultery from consideration of "fitness for public office", and focus on the more important factors about the individual (intelligence, leadership qualities, diplomacy, etc., etc.)

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/19/2012 7:58:24 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		But how one would handle such an issue goes directly to leadership quality, as well as diplomacy.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/19/2012 8:12:21 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

But how one would handle such an issue goes directly to leadership quality, as well as diplomacy.


Tazzy, I'm not sure I follow your comment, so please clarify if my response is off base.

I don't think adultery speaks to leadership quality or diplomacy. I think how someone handles their relationship after adultery has occurred, how one handles a divorce (or not), how one handles financial commitments following a divorce, etc., might speak to character more. But I feel adultery on its own should not hurt one's chances for public office. I think it is unfortunate that so much weight gets placed on the adultery itself.

What is ultimately sad, is many otherwise qualified people bow out of politics altogether because they committed adultery in the past - even if their marriage survived it, they feel the American public will not forgive them for it. Or, they are concerned about both themselves and their spouse having to live under that type of scrutiny for their whole marriage. I think, ultimately, it is we, as citizens, who lose out - and we end up with such limited or poor choices as a result.

If we could just remove it from scrutiny, and focus on other things about someone, I think we would end up with many more compelling candidates, and be able to have a more constructive dialogue around "fitness for public office". Again, my personal viewpoint, and I know, relative to the rest of America, that I am in a minority on this one.


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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/19/2012 8:21:21 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

I don't think adultery speaks to leadership quality or diplomacy. I think how someone handles their relationship after adultery has occurred, how one handles a divorce (or not), how one handles financial commitments following a divorce, etc., might speak to character more.


For the private sector, I agree. For the public one, in this era of digging up everything, its more than character.

Some got upset with Clinton over the "lie", Some got upset with him over the act... I got upset because he didnt have the balls to admit he did it, that it was a mistake, that it was a private matter, and that it was no one's business but Hillary's.

He didnt lead in that instance.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/19/2012 11:22:52 PM   
popeye1250


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"CHARLIE SHEEN FOR PRESIDENT."

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 5:50:48 AM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I don't think adultery speaks to leadership quality or diplomacy. I think how someone handles their relationship after adultery has occurred, how one handles a divorce (or not), how one handles financial commitments following a divorce, etc., might speak to character more.


For the private sector, I agree. For the public one, in this era of digging up everything, its more than character.

Some got upset with Clinton over the "lie", Some got upset with him over the act... I got upset because he didnt have the balls to admit he did it, that it was a mistake, that it was a private matter, and that it was no one's business but Hillary's.

He didnt lead in that instance.
Yo don't think sparing your wife and daughter public embarrassment is reason to lie?

I have to wonder what kind of asshole asks that question on national TV?

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