RE: The Lifestyle is.....and other pervasive myths.

RE: The Lifestyle is.....and other pervasive myths. (Full Version)

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mistoferin -> RE: The Lifestyle is.....and other pervasive myths. (6/2/2006 3:32:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear No lass you are not very far off. You are right of target and thank you for this..... You are most welcome. I was actually second guessing if I should have made that post. As I said, I am not an expert on the subject and would have felt badly if I had misspoken on it. I am glad to know that I come close to understanding. Hopefully, a few lessons were learned on this thread.

ExistentialSteel -> RE: The Lifestyle is.....and other pervasive myths. (6/2/2006 4:01:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo Just a general statement .... I hate to get hung up on semantics, but I think it applies on this topic.... Making judgements is something we do all the time. If we didn't, we'd have no basis from which to make our decisions in life. That is not the same thing as "passing judgement" on people who believe differently than we do. I guess we're all guilty of that at some point also, but I do see a difference between making judgements (or making judgement calls) and passing judgement . Yeah, well said about this judgment thing. I, too, think we are getting too hung up on the semantics while knowing exactly what was meant.

twicehappy -> RE: The Lifestyle is.....and other pervasive myths. (6/2/2006 4:22:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chaingang I DO think that its possible for people involved in alternative sexual lifestyles to be "better" than what is average in the vanilla world. Oh sure, there are plenty of assholes within any lifestyle - there always are. But I really think that alternative lifestyles have one clear advantage over the vanilla option- they prioritize and encourage honesty far beyond what occurs in the mainstream of culture. In fact, by entering into such an alternative lifestyle a person has usually struggled to be truthful about something to themselves and been rewarded - so there is positive reinforcement at work as well. Dishonesty is rampant everywhere - but especially within the vanilla world. I see it all the time. The big lies. The little lies. The lies one tells oneself. Etc. Alternative lifestyles might just be a notch higher though. Honesty is how people arrive here and if they are smart they stick with it to reach higher still. There's very rarely any downside to admitting a truth in an alternative sexual lifestyle - in fact, it's by admitting it that you might actually get exactly what you want. More positive reinforcement - ad infinitum. In vanilla situations people are punished for their truths. I remember well telling a friend of mine how much I admired a girl at university that was amazonian in her proportions (because I like women with a lot of va-va-voom appeal); culture being what it is and since "thin is in" and Jayne Mansfield types are out, my friend turned to me and said (verbatim): "Dude, you're sick!" One misstep in the vanilla world and you get hammered. "Square peg," "the peg that sticks up," etc - is it a mistake that we have these cliches in our culture? Truth is not championed - conformity is what is championed. Conform or be knocked back down - keep your truth to yourself! In this lifestyle there is at least a far greater potential that no one will criticize my truth. Likewise, if someone tells me how they like to stick ginger-root up a girl's ass and how it gets them off, it doesn't have to be my own kink also for them to share about it. They know they can speak their truth and no one else gives a fuck. My own sentiments exactly and very well put Chaingang. I was trying to come up with a way to state this sentiment about the honesty issue and you've done it so well i no longer feel the need.

feastie -> RE: The Lifestyle is.....and other pervasive myths. (6/2/2006 4:49:19 AM)
Wow. That was some reading list for 5:30 a.m. In many ways, Erin, I can't agree with you more. Just because we are involved, enjoy or are interested in a life that include BDSM, does not mean that we are different from those who have not made the same choices. That said, however, I do think that complete honesty in all things, a common foundation of a BDSM lifestyle, can make a relationship between two people much deeper. That's not to say that my own parents, who will see their 44th wedding annivesary this year do not have a deep and meaningful relationship. They do. It is to say, though, that people who truly practice complete honesty with each other in all things take it a step further. There are things that vanilla people would never share with their partner, or say to their partner. They are afraid of what their partner will think. I was once one of those people, so I can say this honestly. There are those that take what they read in a fictional book (The Beauty series, Marketplace series spring to mind), see in a porn flick or read in an online chat as a true representation of what they lifestyle is. Then they take that with them into a munch group, play group, what have you and propagate the fallacies. Newbies meet those folks, and think because they've met someone "real time" that behaves a certain way or has certain beliefs, that those behaviors and beliefs must be correct. (This is a personal pet peeve of mine, use your mind for crying out loud, make your own choices). There are those that say, because they live with their dominant or submissive partner, that they are somehow magically not living a vanilla life. I beg to differ, everyone lives a vanilla life, indeed, there is no such distinction in our lives. The only difference between some people is how they choose to express themselves to each other. Everyone still must work, still has a mortgage, car payment, rent, insurance, whatever. People still have children, watch television, enjoy computers, movies, sports. Dinner must still be made, clothes still must be washed and the trash must still be carried out. A person who enjoys BDSM, who is dominant or submissive and recognizes and embraces the fact is no different than the person who does not, except for BDSM. It doesn't make him better, it doesn't make her stronger, it doesn't make them smarter. It just means they've made different personal decisions. Gee, I feel like I should sign off like Walter Cronkite now. I really shouldn't stay up so late. [&:]

marieToo -> RE: The Lifestyle is.....and other pervasive myths. (6/2/2006 5:16:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: feastie There are those that say, because they live with their dominant or submissive partner, that they are somehow magically not living a vanilla life. I beg to differ, everyone lives a vanilla life, indeed, there is no such distinction in our lives. The only difference between some people is how they choose to express themselves to each other. Everyone still must work, still has a mortgage, car payment, rent, insurance, whatever. People still have children, watch television, enjoy computers, movies, sports. Dinner must still be made, clothes still must be washed and the trash must still be carried out. A person who enjoys BDSM, who is dominant or submissive and recognizes and embraces the fact is no different than the person who does not, except for BDSM. It doesn't make him better, it doesn't make her stronger, it doesn't make them smarter. It just means they've made different personal decisions. Gee, I feel like I should sign off like Walter Cronkite now. I really shouldn't stay up so late. [&:] That was very nicely put. I agree whole-heartedly. This is why I have a hard time with the word "lifestyle". we are all living the same lifestyle, but coming home and sharing a different aspect of a relationship with our partners. And I think most people who exist in Ds relationships are descreet about that part of their lives, when dealing with the rest of the world. This is why I shake my head in disbelief when people say...."we are 24/7, we are lifestylers", we dont "play" at this, we are "real". I wonder how many dominants would introduce their "slave" as their slave at a company picnic, or a holiday dinner with family. We all live in a regular (vanilla) world and we conform when around others in our daily vanilla lives, to conceal our personal preferences. This is not to say that everyone hides it. Some people are very open about it, but most, in my experience are not. Either way, we all get up every day and do what we have to do to take care of our bills, kids, mortgage and whatnot. Theres no way that anyone anywhere can be constantly submissive or constantly dominant 24/7, unless the couple doesnt leave their house or ever deal with anyone but each other.

mistoferin -> RE: The Lifestyle is.....and other pervasive myths. (6/2/2006 5:24:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo Theres no way that anyone anywhere can be constantly submissive or constantly dominant 24/7, unless the couple doesnt leave their house or ever deal with anyone but each other. I strongly disagree. This is another one of those pesky myths. So many people assume that 24/7 means that you are naked, kneeling, flogging each other or doing the "Master"/Sir" thing 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. That is not what 24/7 means. I CAN be submissive 24/7 and Dominants CAN be Dominant 24/7.....they CAN do that when submissive and Dominant is who they are and not some role they play at. In a 24/7 relationship it's not all play and roleplay....it is paying the bills and raising the kids and going to work and washing the car....it is all of those things. But the people involved don't change who they are...they are still Dominant and submissive and their dynamic doesn't change, their respect levels don't change. Even if you can't see outward signs of their relationship choice, that doesn't mean it isn't there.

slavejlb -> RE: The Lifestyle is.....and other pervasive myths. (6/2/2006 5:28:44 AM)
here is a myth that is true, you want to screw up a very well working M/s realtionship get married. this is especially true if the Master/husband first marriage, and he is split between finding out what a husband is and trying to the prefect one. Where the slave/wife has been marriend before, knows the in's and out, and she is trying to hold on to non vanilla way of life. Also the wife know she can tell her husband to bug off if she is not in the mood to something, even something as simple of getting husband something to drink or eat. Not so easy for a slave to tell Master the same thing. This why poly's are good things Master get a new slave outside of marriage, and slave gets a new Master, Husband and wife live happile together, but each have their own needs meet I hope this has made sense it is 5:30 am calif. time and i am getting a bit sleepy

feastie -> RE: The Lifestyle is.....and other pervasive myths. (6/2/2006 5:30:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo Theres no way that anyone anywhere can be constantly submissive or constantly dominant 24/7, unless the couple doesnt leave their house or ever deal with anyone but each other. I strongly disagree. This is another one of those pesky myths. So many people assume that 24/7 means that you are naked, kneeling, flogging each other or doing the "Master"/Sir" thing 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. That is not what 24/7 means. I CAN be submissive 24/7 and Dominants CAN be Dominant 24/7.....they CAN do that when submissive and Dominant is who they are and not some role they play at. In a 24/7 relationship it's not all play and roleplay....it is paying the bills and raising the kids and going to work and washing the car....it is all of those things. But the people involved don't change who they are...they are still Dominant and submissive and their dynamic doesn't change, their respect levels don't change. Even if you can't see outward signs of their relationship choice, that doesn't mean it isn't there. I agree, Erin. Just because I'm not involved with anyone right now doesn't make me less submissive, it just means I have no one to share that with at the moment. When I am with someone, just because I am at work and am not naked doesn't make me less submissive. It makes me responsible! I don't have to share my personal choices regarding relationships with my family or friends or colleagues. All they need to know is that I'm happy. Just as they aren't going to share those things with me. Why would they? It's their personal life. It's not about hiding anything from anyone, or pretending to be something I'm not. It's just my private, personal life which is to be shared with one person. Trust me, I don't know anything about my boss and his relationship with his wife. I don't really want to know. I don't know much about my sisters and their relationships, and I really don't want to know. I don't know anything about my neighbor's relationship with his girlfriend, and again, I don't want to know. Why would they want to know anything about mine?

Tikkiee -> RE: The Lifestyle is.....and other pervasive myths. (6/2/2006 5:36:08 AM)
I knew a wonderful Gorean Master once ( he passed away 3 years ago ). My curiosity over his and his slaves life got the better of me one night while visiting them, and in my blunt way, I started firing off questions at them in an effort to understand some things. Anyway, he said something to me that has always stayed in my mind. " Claiming to be Gorean, and living the life of a Gorean does not make me a better person. I am a better person because I choose to walk a path that allows me to be so." ( And for reference, the late Jason Carryier said that )

marieToo -> RE: The Lifestyle is.....and other pervasive myths. (6/2/2006 5:44:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo Theres no way that anyone anywhere can be constantly submissive or constantly dominant 24/7, unless the couple doesnt leave their house or ever deal with anyone but each other. I strongly disagree. This is another one of those pesky myths. So many people assume that 24/7 means that you are naked, kneeling, flogging each other or doing the "Master"/Sir" thing 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. That is not what 24/7 means. I CAN be submissive 24/7 and Dominants CAN be Dominant 24/7.....they CAN do that when submissive and Dominant is who they are and not some role they play at. In a 24/7 relationship it's not all play and roleplay....it is paying the bills and raising the kids and going to work and washing the car....it is all of those things. But the people involved don't change who they are...they are still Dominant and submissive and their dynamic doesn't change, their respect levels don't change. Even if you can't see outward signs of their relationship choice, that doesn't mean it isn't there. I agree erin. The dynamic of their relationhip may not change. But unless you are with only that person, and dealing only with that person, you cannot be living the "lifestyle" 24 hours per day. I think you misunderstood. I never said anyone was playing a role, or that anyone becomes less of their Masters submissive when theyre out in the vanilla world. Let me draw an analogy: A husband and wife are married; therefore they are always husband and wife to each other, but they are certainly not always interacting as husband and wife 24/7. You're living a vanilla lifestyle while at work, or a pta meeting, or a grocery store.....while you are there, you are still someone's submissive, or still someone's wife..(neither of which are "playing roles" in the context that I think you are refering to) but you're not living that particular dynamic all day, every day, wherever you are. Are you submissive to the man at the deli? the bank teller? your children? Is your Master dominant to his boss?? We are sharing a relationship style with our significant other. We are not going out into the world and being sub or dom with the rest of the world. Therefore, in my opinion, it isnt possible to be living the lifestyle of bdsm 24/7....unless of course, as I said earlier you are with them all day long and never around others. We are living the same lifestyle as (regular) vanilla people. This is not to say that your ds dynamic is not present within your relationship all the time. This is to say that people in Ds relationships go out into the world and live the exact same lifestyle as everyone else.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Lifestyle is.....and other pervasive myths. (6/2/2006 5:46:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: feastie There are things that vanilla people would never share with their partner, or say to their partner. They are afraid of what their partner will think. I was once one of those people, so I can say this honestly. And there are vanillas who DO share everything with their partners, and kinky people who do NOT share everything with their partners. I don't experience any difference across the board when it comes to being honest and open in your intimate relationships in bdsm vs vanilla.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Lifestyle is.....and other pervasive myths. (6/2/2006 5:49:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo neither of which are "playing roles" in the context that I think you are refering to) but you're not living that particular dynamic all day, every day, wherever you are. Are you submissive to the man at the deli? the bank teller? your children? Is your Master dominant to his boss?? As a slave I lived in my dynamic as HIS slave 24/7. To me being a slave isn't about ACTIONS- I'm just as much a slave in the bathroom as I am in the dungeon. No matter where I am or WHAT I am doing or WHO I am interacting with- it is always under the authority of the owner. To me, that's what 24/7 is. quote: This is to say that people in Ds relationships go out into the world and live the exact same lifestyle as everyone else. I don't think I live the same lifestyle as my vanilla monogamous sister does at all, but this might be just a difference in how you and I use those words. Yes, we do the same things that mature independent adults do- but that doesn't mean we're both living the same lifestyle.

mistoferin -> RE: The Lifestyle is.....and other pervasive myths. (6/2/2006 6:09:10 AM)
marieToo, Please don' think that I am arguing for the sake of arguing here, I actually think we are pretty much on the same page. First I'd like to say that I don't believe that there is such a thing as a "BDSM" lifestyle. BDSM stands for bondage, discipline, sadism and masochism. Those are actions...so therefore that can not be a "lifestyle" anymore than one can live a "jogging" lifestyle or a "golfing" lifestyle. I don't believe that "action" or "outwardly interacting" with each other is what defines the relationship dynamic. Am I submissive at the deli or at the bank or at the grocery store though? Yes, I am. That does not mean that I am submissive TO the people at the deli, the bank or the grocery store....but submissive is who I am. That aspect of me doesn't ever go away. It's just not something that I choose to or need to "outwardly express" to people that I am not involved in a relationship with. I know that I am not expressing this well but the environment that I am in doesn't change my nature anymore than changing the oil in my car would make me a man while I am doing it or attending service at a synogogue would make me Jewish while I am there. Yes, we all have to live our lives in the "vanilla" world....but what exactly is that anyway? "Vanilla" to me indicates "non kinky". While I may indeed enjoy "kink", it is certainly not the basis for my relationships. So going to the grocery store doesn't make me less kinky simply because I choose not to get double teamed by the butchers in the meat section....and it doesn't make me any less submissive because I am not bowing down and kneeling before the lady at the checkout. Nor does it negate the dynamic between my partner and I just because we are not "outwardly interacting" at that moment. Not sure if that made any sense at all but........ah well.....I tried.

marieToo -> RE: The Lifestyle is.....and other pervasive myths. (6/2/2006 6:16:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo neither of which are "playing roles" in the context that I think you are refering to) but you're not living that particular dynamic all day, every day, wherever you are. Are you submissive to the man at the deli? the bank teller? your children? Is your Master dominant to his boss?? As a slave I lived in my dynamic as HIS slave 24/7. To me being a slave isn't about ACTIONS- I'm just as much a slave in the bathroom as I am in the dungeon. No matter where I am or WHAT I am doing or WHO I am interacting with- it is always under the authority of the owner. To me, that's what 24/7 is. quote: This is to say that people in Ds relationships go out into the world and live the exact same lifestyle as everyone else. I don't think I live the same lifestyle as my vanilla monogamous sister does at all, but this might be just a difference in how you and I use those words. Yes, we do the same things that mature independent adults do- but that doesn't mean we're both living the same lifestyle. LuckyAlbatross: When I use the term "exact same lifestyle", I am refering to a lifestyle that may emcompass different specifics, but that contain the same fundamentals that we consider a "vanilla" lifestyle. In other words, in this context, the term was used to differentiate between a bdsm lifestyle as opposed to a vanilla one. The context of its usage, I think, is clear when taken as a whole with the entire post comment.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Lifestyle is.....and other pervasive myths. (6/2/2006 6:22:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo LuckyAlbatross: When I use the term "exact same lifestyle", I am refering to a lifestyle that may emcompass different specifics, but that contain the same fundamentals that we consider a "vanilla" lifestyle. In other words, in this context, the term was used to differentiate between a bdsm lifestyle as opposed to a vanilla one. The context of its usage, I think, is clear when taken as a whole with the entire post comment. I don't think that's a good definition. Just because what a person does might encompass a lot of what another person does doesn't mean they are living the same way. I don't think I live the same lifestyle as severely orthodox Jews, but we still do pretty much the same "vanilla" lifestyle stuff.

marieToo -> RE: The Lifestyle is.....and other pervasive myths. (6/2/2006 6:29:39 AM)
Lucky Albatross: Again, I think you may be taking it out of context. The term was used to differentiate between people who claim to live a D/s lifestyle as opposed to a vanilla lifestyle (which could emcompass everything and anything OTHER than Ds) Im not sure I can help you understand that. Sometimes articulation isnt my strong point, But thats the only way I can explain it.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Lifestyle is.....and other pervasive myths. (6/2/2006 6:37:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo Lucky Albatross: Again, I think you may be taking it out of context. The term was used to differentiate between people who claim to live a D/s lifestyle as opposed to a vanilla lifestyle (which could emcompass everything and anything OTHER than Ds) Im not sure I can help you understand that. Sometimes articulation isnt my strong point, But thats the only way I can explain it. To paraphrase, you are saying "All Ds lifestylers fall under the vanilla lifestyle umbrella"?

marieToo -> RE: The Lifestyle is.....and other pervasive myths. (6/2/2006 6:37:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin marieToo, Please don' think that I am arguing for the sake of arguing here, I actually think we are pretty much on the same page. First I'd like to say that I don't believe that there is such a thing as a "BDSM" lifestyle. BDSM stands for bondage, discipline, sadism and masochism. Those are actions...so therefore that can not be a "lifestyle" anymore than one can live a "jogging" lifestyle or a "golfing" lifestyle. I don't believe that "action" or "outwardly interacting" with each other is what defines the relationship dynamic. Am I submissive at the deli or at the bank or at the grocery store though? Yes, I am. That does not mean that I am submissive TO the people at the deli, the bank or the grocery store....but submissive is who I am. That aspect of me doesn't ever go away. It's just not something that I choose to or need to "outwardly express" to people that I am not involved in a relationship with. I know that I am not expressing this well but the environment that I am in doesn't change my nature anymore than changing the oil in my car would make me a man while I am doing it or attending service at a synogogue would make me Jewish while I am there. Yes, we all have to live our lives in the "vanilla" world....but what exactly is that anyway? "Vanilla" to me indicates "non kinky". While I may indeed enjoy "kink", it is certainly not the basis for my relationships. So going to the grocery store doesn't make me less kinky simply because I choose not to get double teamed by the butchers in the meat section....and it doesn't make me any less submissive because I am not bowing down and kneeling before the lady at the checkout. Nor does it negate the dynamic between my partner and I just because we are not "outwardly interacting" at that moment. Not sure if that made any sense at all but........ah well.....I tried. Erin: I dont feel like we are arguing a single bit. Im just sitting here with my coffee and spouting my thoughts. My main point, if you go back to the comment that I posted in response to Feastie was about my problem with those who specificially use the term "living the lifestyle" meaning one of .bdsm, ds, ms, kink, whatever word you choose for it. I guess its all about how we define lifestyle. I live the american lifestyle, but choose a Ds foundation in my personal relationship with a man. In my definition, if you really wanted to see lifestyle dominance and submission, check out the females in Iran. "Lifestyle Ds" can be found in those type countries. THATS a lifestyle. It applies across the board, not just when you choose to be in a Ms/Ds relationship. Its the law of the land...the way they live...their "lifestyle". Maybe we just define lifestyle differently and its another case of semantics.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Lifestyle is.....and other pervasive myths. (6/2/2006 6:42:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo In my definition, if you really wanted to see lifestyle dominance and submission, check out the females in Iran. To me that's not a "Ds relationship" that's simply cultural norms operating with a sexist interpretation of authority. To me a Ds relationship is an intimate personal authority dynamic based on the personal choices of those involved. That authority dynamic can and does operate wherever the person is or is not- it's not dependent upon how anyone else views the relationship and it's not dependent on how the slave acts or doesn't act.

angelface183 -> RE: The Lifestyle is.....and other pervasive myths. (6/2/2006 6:44:25 AM)
quote: if you really wanted to see lifestyle dominance and submission, check out the females in Iran and Afghanistan, Iraq... I may be submissive to my Master, but I am allowed thoughts, opinions, interests and choices of my own. That is a 24/7 dynamic that is too severe for me...

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