RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty

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DaddySatyr -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/27/2012 10:11:53 PM)
There are three crimes for which (I believe) the perpetrator forfeits their own life: willful murder (cold-blooded), rape, and paedophilia. This piece of cheese seems to have hit the trifecta. Good riddance to useless rubbish. Peace and comfort, Michael

Iamsemisweet -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/27/2012 11:00:38 PM)
I understand what you are saying. I was supportive of capital punishment, until very recently. Now, I am ambivalent. I think my change in stance is because I have become very distrustful of the court system. The Davis case was not just a failure of the Georgia courts, the SCOTUS fucked up on it too. For the laws in this country to be so out of whack is a shocking thing. By the way, every prosecutor I have ever talked to has told me that they love trying cases where the evidence is circumstantial. Not very intuitive, but there you are. quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: Troy Davis quote: ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet Liberal also, but until recently, pro death penalty. The case that turned me was Troy Davis. Because I am afraid that as justified as the case OP posted seems to be, I also think there are far too many Troy Davises. The main reason I was comfortable with my belief in CP was because I felt there was plenty of legal process to protect the rights of those accused of capital crimes. That faith in the legal system was shaken pretty badly by the Troy Davis case. If the process is faulty, how can we justify the punishment? See that doesn't make me anti-death penalty, it just makes me anti-Georgia. We've got the death penalty in NH but we're not complete idiots and we're not trigger happy so we don't run into the sorts of problems with it that some other states do.

DaNewAgeViking -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 3:47:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam I'll buy rope, lumber and nails. Crucifixion? AWESOME! Just remember, Hill, you can never drive in the last nail by yourself.

tazzygirl -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 4:23:39 AM)
The more I dug into that case, I realized it didnt have any affect on how I feel about capital punishment. And while some may complain about the costs of such, Im glad that avenue is open to them.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 7:24:19 AM)
I think you have to have laws on capital punishment that are consistent. And if you start going down the path of certain types of evidence can allow for the death penalty, but certain others not, etc., etc., etc., one is already going down a slippery slope. Mistakes get made when a state has capital punishment. Innocent people get sent to death for crimes they did not commit. So if you are going to have a law that one can uphold and avoid error, then I think the only logical thing a society can do is to NOT have the death penalty, and instead have life imprisonment without parole for serious offenses. I think the fact that we know that we have killed innocent people using the death penalty is argument enough for why it should not exist. You have to have a legal system that can function, and that requires consistent application of consistent rules. I would rather see the perpetrators of the crime in CT rot in jail for their lives, then run the risk that even one innocent person somewhere else gets legally killed by the state mistakenly. As much as I hate the perpetrators of the case in CT, who or what gave any of us the right to take away the lives of even one innocent person who got convicted incorrectly. For all of you who support the death penalty, I sincerely hope that in your lifetime, neither you, nor anyone you care about, ever gets on the wrong end of this equation. Policemen do lie on occasion (sometimes because they mistakenly believe something that is not true). Witnesses misremember. Innocent people do die at the hands of the state, convicted for crimes they never committed. Consistency demands that we move to a system of life sentence without parole for serious crimes. We can't apply one set of rules to one set of evidence and a different set of rules to a different set of evidence. That is not fair. Rule of law means absolutely nothing if it enables innocent people to die at the hands of the state. And the current set of rules and laws, coupled with human fallibility, absolutely enables that. I am not against the death penalty because of these two criminals in CT. I am against the death penalty because serious harm to innocent people has occurred because of it.

Aylee -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 7:38:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess I think the fact that we know that we have killed innocent people using the death penalty is argument enough for why it should not exist. What about the people that we know are guilty? Timothy McVeigh or Lawrence Brewer?

tazzygirl -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 7:42:09 AM)
quote: Rule of law means absolutely nothing if it enables innocent people to die at the hands of the state. And the current set of rules and laws, coupled with human fallibility, absolutely enables that. I am not against the death penalty because of these two criminals in CT. I am against the death penalty because serious harm to innocent people has occurred because of it. With the advent of DNA testing that is less a likelihood, wouldnt you think? quote: For all of you who support the death penalty, I sincerely hope that in your lifetime, neither you, nor anyone you care about, ever gets on the wrong end of this equation. Policemen do lie on occasion (sometimes because they mistakenly believe something that is not true). Umm... not sure I like the tone of this. My brother was on that end. So, yes, I do know something of what I speak about.

barelynangel -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 8:45:06 AM)
Maybe if people sooo concerned about the death penalty would instead of worrying about the death penalty put that effort into working to stop the crimes of which the death penalty is a sentence, imagine this -- a society that has the death penalty but it is soo rarely used because the citizens were more worried about correcting the crimes that constituted the death penalty, so the death penalty while viable wasn't needed. Imagine that -- worrying about the crimes committed rather than the sentence. But i guess its easier to be concerned about a VERY FEW select innocents over the course of decades than the 1000s of innocents every year who are murdered many times very heinously. It's easier to whinge and moan about this because of the media hype it draws -- instead of the 1000s of murders a year we never hear about because its such a common occurance in our society. I would really love to know what those opposed to the death penalty are doing to put a stop to the crimes of which the death penalty is a sentence. Amazing concept yes? Instead of stopping the sentence, you stop the crime for which that sentence can be carried out. That's just too hard though. I find it ironic that the trend of stopping the death penalty stopped because of this one crime. I bet if you look on the books of that state -- you could find like crimes that have existed. The fact is, this is a media hype. I fully believe this man should be executed, but then again, i think most murders should hold the sentence of death as well as murders shouldn't be pled down to avoid the death penatly possibility. Personally, i also think the hype about poor lil prisoners being put to death when in pain etc is a bunch of BS. angel angel

Fightdirecto -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 9:01:13 AM)
Execute the person - and they only suffer for a brief moment. Imprison them for the remainder of their life - and they suffer for years. And, if the system got it wrong (as it all too often does) and they are found subsequently to be innocent, you can release them. If you execute them and they are found subsequently to be innocent, you can't t bring them back to life.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 9:06:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel Maybe if people sooo concerned about the death penalty would instead of worrying about the death penalty put that effort into working to stop the crimes of which the death penalty is a sentence, imagine this -- a society that has the death penalty but it is soo rarely used because the citizens were more worried about correcting the crimes that constituted the death penalty, so the death penalty while viable wasn't needed. It's a bit rambling but, I think you're saying we should just put our energy into preventing murders? That's a really nice thought on the surface but, what would that take, I wonder? 24/7 video surveillance of everyone's home? A police officer posted on every corner? Oooooh! We could put people into their own little "security cells", when they're not working. You cannot completely prevent any kind of crime. The one's that stem from the deepest passion will be the toughest to wipe out. I would posit that we can almost never know, without *any* doubt whether someone is innocent or guilty. It's only possible in the rarest of cases. I would be lying if I said otherwise but, have you ever thought of how many people have to be convinced of someone's guilt/did they get a fair trial before they're put to death? Police investigators, prosecutors, grand jury (23 people on a grand jury, alone, in some places), trial judge (Can set aside a jury verdict, if he thinks the jury arrived at the wrong verdict), the jury, state court of appeals, state supreme court, circuit court of appeals, SC. I am not saying mistakes don't get made or that I wouldn't like to see them eliminated. I just don't know what it would take for us to be "sure" of anything. As you know, I'm sure, it is almost impossible to prove that one *didn't* commit a crime. Proving a negative is quite a daunting task. It's why our system was set up with the burden of proof resting squarely on the state's shoulders. I forget the fellow's name but McVeigh's partner? I happen to think he wasn't all that guilty. In fact, we heard very little about his actual involvement and both of them had remarkably swift trials and executions. Almost as if someone didn't want their side of the story investigated. Now, that, is the only argument I could ever make against the death penalty but, since I only have questions about suspicious government dealings and I am not yet frothing at the mouth, I do not yet fall squarely into the "conspiracy theorist" camp. I am not sure what it would take to *prove* people dead-bang guilty, either. I do stand by my earlier statement, though; those three crimes should *always* carry a death penalty (IMO). Peace and comfort, Michael

barelynangel -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 9:10:14 AM)
Yeah, let's pay for their being in prison for 50 years, in a system already overcrowded lol. Ya know, the VERY FEW "innocent" people who are executed in this country over a decade to me, isn't worth paying for the 1000s of guilty people for 50 years so we don't "opps" and unfortunately execute an innocent person. But yeah, let's worry about feeding, clothing, housing, paying medical expenses for as they get older etc and guarding 10000s of murderers for 50 years just so one or two innocent people can be spared being executed. All in all, i think our system is TOO lenient and i think more crimes should be death penalty cases. Hell we now have death row inmates sending letters about their life of leisure on death row. No, i am not advocating executing innocent people, but to me, the amount of innocents executed over decades doesn't warrant paying for the cost of housing guilty people who should be executed. There are victims in everything, unfortunately even in State sanctioned legal systems. When murders on the street go down, so will the amount of innocents who are convicted and/or sentenced to death. angel

fucktoyprincess -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 10:14:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Rule of law means absolutely nothing if it enables innocent people to die at the hands of the state. And the current set of rules and laws, coupled with human fallibility, absolutely enables that. I am not against the death penalty because of these two criminals in CT. I am against the death penalty because serious harm to innocent people has occurred because of it. With the advent of DNA testing that is less a likelihood, wouldnt you think? quote: For all of you who support the death penalty, I sincerely hope that in your lifetime, neither you, nor anyone you care about, ever gets on the wrong end of this equation. Policemen do lie on occasion (sometimes because they mistakenly believe something that is not true). Umm... not sure I like the tone of this. My brother was on that end. So, yes, I do know something of what I speak about. My point is that if one is charged with a crime, you want the system working fairly. But it doesn't always work fairly. I'm saying the protections that we have protect all of us. If I were ever falsely accused of a serious crime, there is no lawyer on the face of the planet who could guarantee that I would not be convicted. The system is not perfect such that only guilty people get convicted of crimes. There are absolutely people on death row who did not commit the crime that they have been convicted of. If I were ever falsely accused of a crime and convicted, you can bet my life (pun intended) that I would be very happy if the death penalty did NOT exist. I truly hate the thought of an innocent person being put to death by the state for something that had nothing to do with them. And it happens. If your brother was falsely accused of a crime, I certainly hope that justice worked in his favor and he was acquitted, and I certainly hope that he was not found guilty and put on death row for something that he did not do. My point is we should not assume that we could never end up falsely accused of something - because if we are, we are at the mercy of a system that we have to trust is working fairly and impartially. But that isn't always the case. People get released from prison routinely when other evidence shows up that they didn't do the crime. But they can only be released if they are still alive.

tazzygirl -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 11:28:02 AM)
What I dont see from those who are against the death penalty are the complaints when the system doesnt work in the favor of the victim and a killer gets off. All I hear then is... its how the system works. At the Louisiana State Penitentiary in Angola, for instance, more than 3,000 of the 5,100 prisoners are serving life without parole, and most of the rest are serving sentences so long that they cannot be completed in a typical lifetime. About 150 inmates have died there in the last five years. But, let me ask you this. What would be the deterrent for someone who has the propensity to kill, and acts on that, not to kill without a death penalty? Some who are institutionalized really dont care about going back. According to statistics provided by the office of California's nonpartisan Legislative Analyst, the current annual cost for maintaining an inmate in a state prison is $47,102. The Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, however, places the number at $44,563. But the alternative-the death penalty-may cost taxpayers even more. Published reports by both the Northern California chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and USA Today say it costs an additional $90,000 a year, including the cost of appeals, to house prisoners on death row than in the general inmate population. 1.7 million to house someone for 40 years. I dont see this as a reason to abolish death penalties. I see it as a reason to revamp the system itself. Why do appeals take so long? Why are prisoners given such shitty lawyers? Why are death penalty cases not automatically reviewed? Why is there not a set pattern for how that review should be held? There are plenty flaws. Fix the flaws. quote: US District Court Judge James C. Cacheris had found that the Terry Williams's lawyer "failed to make any reasonable investigation on behalf of Williams.... [He] did not even attempt to obtain Williams's juvenile records from Danville social services, not because he didn't believe these records would be important, but because he incorrectly believed that ‘State law didn't permit it.'” As a result Williams's jury did not hear evidence of his borderline mental retardation, his background of neglect and abuse or his head injuries. After the trial, Williams's attorney was suspended from the state bar on a mental disability. However, the US Court of Appeals for the Fourth District in Richmond, Virginia did not affirm the District Court's finding of ineffective counsel, and rejected Williams's appeal. The Fourth Circuit Court ruled that a state court decision could not be considered “unreasonable” unless it interpreted or applied the relevant precedent “in a manner that reasonable jurists could all agree is unreasonable.” Although the Supreme Court voted unanimously that the Circuit Court's interpretation of the 1996 law was incorrect, the justices ruled 5-4 that “for purposes of today's opinion, the most important point is that an unreasonable application of federal law is different from an incorrect application of federal law.” In other words, a state court ruling could be upheld even if it was wrong, as long as it was a “reasonable” decision. http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/apr2000/dp-a21.shtml Rally to fix this. Dont use it as an excuse to let the guilty linger for decades.

GotSteel -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 12:40:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel Yeah, let's pay for their being in prison for 50 years, in a system already overcrowded lol. Tazzy beat me to the numbers, the death penalty isn't a money saver.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 12:50:00 PM)
Appeals take a long time because the judicial process is slow. I don't think it is any slower for death penalty cases than any others. They get inadequate or spotty legal representation because they usually can't afford to pay for their own legal counsel. Wealthy people accused of murder get very different legal representation because they hire their own counsel. Most people I know who do death penalty work are doing it pro bono in between paying work that they do. I agree the system is flawed, but allowing a system to continue that might allow an innocent person to die while we wait to fix the system doesn't seem so fair to me either. Criminal law is state jurisdiction. Changing these rules requires state-by-state changes to criminal law statutes and to each state's trial and appeals process. I do not see how this could possibly happen within my lifetime or anyone else's for that matter.

slvemike4u -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 4:03:26 PM)
Wow,not much more I can say than WOW.I have heard many a defense of the Death Penalty....never have I heard it put in such an incoherent,rambling disjointed argument.Thanks for the laughs angel [8\|]

Owner59 -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 5:14:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr There are three crimes for which (I believe) the perpetrator forfeits their own life: willful murder (cold-blooded), rape, and paedophilia. This piece of cheese seems to have hit the trifecta. Good riddance to useless rubbish. Peace and comfort, Michael So you trust the government.....who conservatives claim is broken,to figure out who did what and who get`s to live and die? Square this for us.

erieangel -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 6:08:05 PM)
Tazzy beat me to it on the issue of cost. Also consider this from the Innocence Project: The Innocence Project has now had some 100 death sentences overturned based upon post-conviction evidence. According to their study of the first 70 cases reversed: • Over 30 of them involved prosecutorial misconduct. • Over 30 of them involved police misconduct which led to wrongful convictions. • Approximately 15 of them involved false witness testimony. • 34% of the police misconduct cases involved suppression of exculpatory evidence. • 11% involved outright evidence fabrication. • 37% of the prosecutorial misconduct cases involved concealing exculpatory evidence. • 25% involved knowing use of false testimony. Keep in mind, those are only DEATH ROW cases. http://knowledgebase.findlaw.com/kb/2009/Jun/CS060809.html And using the overcrowding of our prisons as an excuse to support state-sanctioned murder is specious. Our prisons should be housing murderers, rapists and thieves; yet they are overflowing with drug addicts, dealers and dead beat dads who refuse to pay child support. How many addicts are spending their lives in CA prisons because of the insane three strike laws while murderers typically get released in 5-15 years?

barelynangel -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 6:11:59 PM)
slvemike4u, we have had this debate many times over the years so please don't make it seem this is the first time you have ever heard me DEFEND the death penalty. Yeah i get it, you are a ohhh those few poor innocents who are killed by the system, funny i never hear you bitching and moaning about the victims of murder - you know the 100s of murdered people in our society almost yearly? Only those FEW victims in decades who were executed for a crime they didn't commit. Also, for whomever said it, i never said that the death penalty saves money - saving money isn't the reason i advocate it -- i advocate it because of the very crimes that this thread was begun on, i said that the argument that we should house people for 50 years instead of executing them based on the death penalty isn't plausible especially in a system that is ALREADY overcrowded. Executing more people for the heinous crimes they have committed i am all for. We all know not many executions happen in a year and we do actually house the inmates for about what is it now 20 years, but all in all, that's 30 years less than housing them under the concept of life in prison. Why should we? angel

xXLithiumXx -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 6:15:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam I'll buy rope, lumber and nails. Crucifixion? AWESOME! ^^ I'd pay to watch that for a child rapist.

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