RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (Full Version)

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Owner59 -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 7:41:07 PM)

So it`s more about revenge and blood lust, than about justice..........



tazzygirl -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 8:39:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

Tazzy beat me to it on the issue of cost.

Also consider this from the Innocence Project:

The Innocence Project has now had some 100 death sentences overturned based upon post-conviction evidence. According to their study of the first 70 cases reversed: • Over 30 of them involved prosecutorial misconduct.
• Over 30 of them involved police misconduct which led to wrongful convictions.
• Approximately 15 of them involved false witness testimony.
• 34% of the police misconduct cases involved suppression of exculpatory evidence.
• 11% involved outright evidence fabrication.
• 37% of the prosecutorial misconduct cases involved concealing exculpatory evidence.
• 25% involved knowing use of false testimony.
Keep in mind, those are only DEATH ROW cases. 

http://knowledgebase.findlaw.com/kb/2009/Jun/CS060809.html

And using the overcrowding of our prisons as an excuse to support state-sanctioned murder is specious.  Our prisons should be housing murderers, rapists and thieves; yet they are overflowing with drug addicts, dealers and dead beat dads who refuse to pay child support.  How many addicts are spending their lives in CA prisons because of the insane three strike laws while murderers typically get released in 5-15 years?




I sorta get the feeling this is based upon my post. And, no, it wasnt about all the others being in prison. If you base it upon the fact that 3000 out of 5100 are there for life, how long before the whole system is full? I saw somewhere there was an increase in 28% over a few years.

And while you call that law insane, I call it perfectly acceptable. Im sorry, they get three strikes. You would think they would have learned by their second one. And, again, there is an appeals process.

quote:

The Innocence Project has now had some 100 death sentences overturned based upon post-conviction evidence. According to their study of the first 70 cases reversed: • Over 30 of them involved prosecutorial misconduct.


Yet they do not take every case. Why is that? Why is there not a body that reviews every case of death sentence for possible misconduct.. anywhere during the process?



GotSteel -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 8:41:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel
slvemike4u, we have had this debate many times over the years so please don't make it seem this is the first time you have ever heard me DEFEND the death penalty.   Yeah i get it, you are a ohhh those few poor innocents who are killed by the system, funny i never hear you bitching and moaning about the victims of murder - you know the 100s of murdered people in our society almost yearly?  Only those FEW victims in decades who were executed for a crime they didn't commit. 

Also, for whomever said it, i never said that the death penalty saves money - saving money isn't the reason i advocate it -- i advocate it because of the very crimes that this thread was begun on, i said that the argument that we should house people for 50 years instead of executing them based on the death penalty isn't plausible especially in a system that is ALREADY overcrowded. 

"100s"....try tens of thousands.
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0306.pdf

There's plenty of shitty land out west, money is the limiting factor making it roughly twice as plausible to keep people in a cage their entire life.



DaddySatyr -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 8:41:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

There are three crimes for which (I believe) the perpetrator forfeits their own life: willful murder (cold-blooded), rape, and paedophilia. This piece of cheese seems to have hit the trifecta.

Good riddance to useless rubbish.



Peace and comfort,



Michael


So you trust the government.....who conservatives claim is broken,to figure out who did what and who get`s to live and die?


Square this for us.



Nowhere in there did I say I trusted the government. Nowhere in there did I say I was a conservative. I was sharing my opinion on heinous crimes.

I am not saying the sytem is fool-proof and I wish it were. I have to admit, gun-to-my-head that if one innocent person dies it is too many but there are some people who have absolutely committed heinous acts that deserve nothing less than death.

There are some people that will never be "rehabilitated" and are nothing but a drag on our society. I don't think we need to keep them "hanging around". As far as the prison over-crowding? How about we stop putting people in jail for wanting to get wasted. I don't think it's a smart way to go through life but, I shouldn't get to decide what goes into your body.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



BoxwineForBrunch -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 9:44:49 PM)

i am opposed to the death penalty, in both theory and practice. no crime, however horrible, has ever made me consider changing that position. even if the racism, classism, and bigotry that exists up and down the line, systemically and individually, from the cops to the lawyers to the judges to the juries could somehow be corrected, the fact would remain that the government has no right to take the life of one of its citizens. period.



SternSkipper -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 9:56:26 PM)

quote:

Liberal as they come, but there are way to many murdering assholes and paedophiles, rapists that I would be quite happy to remove from the earth.


Which is why I'll be so glad once the GOP Primaries are over and they retreat back into the shadows once again.[:D]



Kirata -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 10:16:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoxwineForBrunch

the government has no right to take the life of one of its citizens. period.

I think that's disputable, but I like the idea nonetheless. However, in my view citizenship should at minimum entail a responsibility to abide by the social compact. When an individual is found guilty of breaking that social compact in a particularly egregious and intolerable way, I think the very first thing he should lose is his citizenship. That would solve the problem (for those who consider it to be one) of executing so-called "citizens".

K.



SternSkipper -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 10:44:33 PM)

quote:

This crime ENDED the movement in the state to abolish the death penalty.


Maybe it's cause of the crazy irrelevant fact tha I live in the state directly north of Ct. that I think this. But I think you should get a new news source.

Here's just ONE example of what's STILL a resistance and politically live opposition to capital punishment

While it may have caused ardent supporters of capital punishment's repeal (when a matter this extreme is in the crosshairs of  most news people ... I think  it's kind of absurd to not expect a temporary silence... who's case does that make). The article surmises that the debate will stifle till the memory of the Petit's case dissipates.
    I don't think that means there's been some societal wake up call. The circumstances of the case are just so egregious, that the politicians no longer have balls of sufficient size to press forward.
   None of the above is meant to say anything about how I feel about the death penalty. I just want to point out that the nbc article is not quite what's going on in CT. people are still on both ends of the spectrum and temporary loss of a legislative initiative doesn't constitute the 'end' of the debate.
    And if you saw the footage of that poor guy (Petit) walking out of the court room before the sentence was read, you ,ight just be overwhelmed with wondering just what that guy must feel like. He looked so drained and removed from the situation in the really brief shot of him leaving (they onlt aired it once on necn as far as I know and you could tell the camera man deliberately turned the camera toward the ground). I can't even imagine.



DaddySatyr -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/28/2012 10:51:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I think that's disputable, but I like the idea nonetheless. However, in my view citizenship should at minimum entail a responsibility to abide by the social compact. When an individual is found guilty of breaking that social compact in a particularly egregious and intolerable way, I think the very first thing he should lose is his citizenship. That would solve the problem (for those who consider it to be one) of executing so-called "citizens".

K.


I like this take on it.

I may be wrong about this because I was very young but, I am almost sure that there was a time when a person, convicted of a felony (I seem to remember it being any crime for which they were sentenced to more than one year), lost certain rights of citizenship (most notably the vote); which could certainly be interpreted to mean that they had lost citizenship.

I want to point out that I am not some blood-thirsty type, bent on vengeance. I just don't see society's need to maintain certain conditions. One of those conditions being people that have shown themselves to have no regard for society. Why should we have any regard for them?



Peace and comfort,



Michael



erieangel -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/29/2012 3:28:56 AM)

Tazzy, there are people spending the rest of their lives in prison because they got wasted.  Why is that??  The war on drugs has to end and then there will be plenty of room in the prisons for all of the murderers, rapists and thieves. 

And DaddySatyr, while some people can never be rehabilitated, our "justice" is set up to rehabilitate exactly zero of them currently.  We do nothing but warehouse criminals, we don't try to "rehabilitate" them--that would be costly. 

"Why should we have any regard for them?"  Maybe because as a society we should be better than the worst of our members??  I don't know, that sounds very similar to the argument the righties keep using to justify water boarding, pissing on corpses and all the killing of innocent civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq.



DaddySatyr -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/29/2012 3:48:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

Maybe because as a society we should be better than the worst of our members??  I don't know, that sounds very similar to the argument the righties keep using to justify water boarding, pissing on corpses and all the killing of innocent civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq.



Well, since I've never made an argument to try to justify those activities, I'll take a pass at being lumped in with "righties".

Well, your statement that we should be better than the scumbags who engage in the three crimes I suggested were reasons for capital punishment, I fail to see why a society should waste time and resources on people who will never contribute anything to that society.

I have compassion for people who are victims of birth defects and other legitimate disbilities and I believe that we should take care of them because it's not their fault that they are incapacitated.

But, please, let's not - you and I - confuse compassion for someone who is worthy of it and wasted emotion and naiveté for people who had the same opportunities as most others and for some reason chose to do something horrible to one of the members of that very society that you feel should extend compassion.

Let me re-phrase: If I lend you $100 and you don't pay me back and you come back in two years' time and ask for another hundred, if I give it to you, I'm either the most charitable person I know or I'm a moron.

I have no problem showing compassion to people who are truly contrite but, I defy you to find me a cold-blooded murderer, rapist, or paedophile that even has the conscience to be able to form contrition.

I'm not talking about the poor dumb bastard who got drunk, got into his car and (God forbid) killed someone. I'm talking about the scumbag that decided that he shouldn't have to do real work for a living so he'll just do some contract killing. Useless pieces of flotsam to a society that stands willing to show the compassion of which you speak.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



tweakabelle -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/29/2012 4:51:05 AM)

DS, this is your signature line:

"Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."

I'm unable to see how those sentiments can be reconciled with support for the death penalty. By any standard, the death penalty is a case of "returning violence for violence".

The next two sentences sound like common sense to me. Yet my feeling is that the logic of those phrases is implacably anti-death penalty. To me the death penalty is unambiguously a case of using "darkness against darkness" and "hate against hate".

So I'm a little confused by your position.



jlf1961 -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/29/2012 5:30:57 AM)

I hate to point this out, but the prison system is full of criminals who have long sentences for non-violent crimes.  You can thank "Mandatory Minimums" for that.

Add to that the fact that the appeals system is overloaded, hence the reason why it takes so long for an appeal to be heard.

I said I support the death penalty, and I do.  However I will admit there are flaws to the system.  But as stated by others, there are certain crimes where the death penalty should be on the table.  I could understand the complaints against the death penalty if it was sought in every capital crime, but it isn't.



DaddySatyr -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/29/2012 5:43:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I hate to point this out, but the prison system is full of criminals who have long sentences for non-violent crimes.  You can thank "Mandatory Minimums" for that.

Add to that the fact that the appeals system is overloaded, hence the reason why it takes so long for an appeal to be heard.

I said I support the death penalty, and I do.  However I will admit there are flaws to the system.  But as stated by others, there are certain crimes where the death penalty should be on the table.  I could understand the complaints against the death penalty if it was sought in every capital crime, but it isn't.



We could do a whole, separate thread on the ridiculousness of mandatory minimums. Let's keep that out of the discussion. LOL!

I think since the advent of the "penalty phase" in murder trials, particularly, there is a "voice" for those that are anti-death penalty. I could be wrong but, much like the initial conviction, I believe the verdict to impose death must be unanimous? That tells me that that at least 13 people (the jury and the judge) have heard every bit of evidence available in the case and believe that the guilty party is: A) guilty and 2) deserving of a death sentence.

These "penalty phases" often include information that is not heard during the regular trial. There are character witnesses and the like (which is usually purely opinion; not fact). Sometimes, details of the crime which may be ruled "inflammatory" or "prejudicial" during the trial itself are presented as aggravating circumstances. Of course, the defense is allowed to present mitigating circumstancial "evidence", also.

It's certainly a step in the right direction, as far as I am concerned.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



erieangel -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/29/2012 5:59:29 AM)

I'm sorry DS, but the poor dumb bastard who gets drunk, decides to drive and kills somebody is deserving of the very same punishment as the contract killer.  But thats just my opinion.



DaddySatyr -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/29/2012 6:31:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

I'm sorry DS, but the poor dumb bastard who gets drunk, decides to drive and kills somebody is deserving of the very same punishment as the contract killer.  But thats just my opinion.



And that's a valid opinion. We're allowed to disagree. In fact, disagreement is the only reason that issues ever get resolved.

I will admit that the poor, dumb, bastard made a decision to get drunk and made a (drunken) decision to get behind the wheel of the car. The fact that the second decision was made while drunk is a mitigating factor. "Not guilty by reason of diminished capacity" is a valid defense that is used, frequently and successfully in murder trials.

Now, if his intent was to go out and get drunk so that he could specifically kill someone, that's an issue. There's an evil inherent in that kind of behavior. To me, that evil ... that intent ... is an aggravating factor and that is what makes me feel that the perpetrator's life is forfeit.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



DomKen -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/29/2012 6:57:45 AM)

Those in favor of killing people for revenge need to consider this:

A man was home with his young children when a household fire boke out. He tried to rescue his children and received serious burn injuries in the attempt. After he fled the fire he was visibly distraught over his children being trapped in the fire. Unfortunately fire response arrived too late to save his children.

One of his neighbors, who had previous problems with him, told police she thought he was faking his concern for his children. The police believed her rather than the obvious injuries he received while trying to rescue his children. An arson investigator then determined on the basis of folklore beliefs that are actually contrary to how a fire actually behaves that the man set the fire himself.

The loving father is then arrested, tried and executed on the basis of a neighbor's, who didn't like him, claims and an arson investigators fairy tales and nothing else.

Put yourself in Cameron Willingham's shoes and consider carefully whether the state has any business taking people's lives.



slvemike4u -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/29/2012 7:03:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Those in favor of killing people for revenge need to consider this:

A man was home with his young children when a household fire boke out. He tried to rescue his children and received serious burn injuries in the attempt. After he fled the fire he was visibly distraught over his children being trapped in the fire. Unfortunately fire response arrived too late to save his children.

One of his neighbors, who had previous problems with him, told police she thought he was faking his concern for his children. The police believed her rather than the obvious injuries he received while trying to rescue his children. An arson investigator then determined on the basis of folklore beliefs that are actually contrary to how a fire actually behaves that the man set the fire himself.

The loving father is then arrested, tried and executed on the basis of a neighbor's, who didn't like him, claims and an arson investigators fairy tales and nothing else.

Put yourself in Cameron Willingham's shoes and consider carefully whether the state has any business taking people's lives.

Oh no Ken,this is just another little inconvenience we,as a society,are forced to endure so as we get to put all the actual murderers to death [8|]
Certainly you wouldn't want to admit to be willing to coddle those motherfuckers just so we can avoid killing innocent men ?
Surely you don't mean to suggest such an unreasonable request [8|]



tazzygirl -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/29/2012 7:25:03 AM)

quote:

Tazzy, there are people spending the rest of their lives in prison because they got wasted.  Why is that??  The war on drugs has to end and then there will be plenty of room in the prisons for all of the murderers, rapists and thieves. 


We arent talking about the war on drugs. However, since you brought it up... they knew that risk. They also knew the rewards. They believed getting wasted was more important than their freedom/



slvemike4u -> RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty (1/29/2012 7:58:03 AM)

Tazzy that just isn't fair,most of those getting "wasted" never take the time to consider the consequences.Quite frankly in most cases their ability to realistically interpret risk/reward comparative values have been severely compromised



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