RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence?

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (Full Version)

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MrBlue76 -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 6:26:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrBukani Tell that to the spanish inquisition, the pope, al qaida etc.[:D] And the fucks who say in god we trust and send you to war. I just fucked my post up, and misunderstood something I guess.[:(] You did, yes. But it doesn't matter, we all love you anyway. Well, I don't, personally because I don't know you... but I'm sure someone does!

MrBlue76 -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 6:30:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Oh I agree, that country that's almost all atheistic is... ummm... Apparently Estonia, Sweden and Denmark are the least religious countries in the world. We all know what warmongering bastards they are. Estonia God ------------------16% Spirit or Life force---54% Neither---------------26% Sweden 23% 53% 23% Denmark 31% 49% 19% And yet.... France 34% 27% 33% Czech Republic 19% 50% 30% Netherlands 34% 37% 27% Take, for example Norway 32% 47% 17% Yet this is also true about Norway.... As of December 2010, Still, 78% of the population are members of the Norwegian state's official Lutheran Protestant church. All Norwegians are automatically registered as members at birth, so this number includes anyone except members of other communities, and those few who take action to unregister. My point went over heads, as I knew it would. Unless a society/country has been in the past more atheistic than religious, proving that religion caused more wars, as opposed to greed masked under the guise of religion, is impossible to prove. Which proves that my point went... I don't know if over your head, to the right, or to the left, but it didn't hit the target. It's not what I was saying. What I say is that if religion is a requirement for some moral (edited: better, ethical, or socially positive) behaviour, now, we should be noticing the first syntoms, as they are now more atheists and agnosticts than ever, in our societies. And it's not happening.

Rule -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 8:46:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrBlue76 What I say is that if religion is a requirement for some moral (edited: better, ethical, or socially positive) behaviour, now, we should be noticing the first syntoms, as they are now more atheists and agnosticts than ever, in our societies. And it's not happening. It hasn't got so much to do with religion in general, but with specific religions. More in particular, there in my opinion is a relationship between populations who practice circumcision and crime. For example: in The Netherlands about 65 per cent of youths of a circumcised population has had a serious encounter with the police. The joke is that the other 35 per cent ran too fast to be apprehended. In circumcised Muslim countries the tendency to commit crimes is such that only the most severe punishments (called sharia) are able to deter some of the members of those populations from committing crimes. The USA, which has the highest circumcision rate of all Western countries, also has a far higher proportion of people in their prisons than any of the other Western countries. I call on all populations and peoples that practice circumcision to stop doing so.

mnottertail -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 8:51:43 AM)
Yeah, I believe that hindu thugees kill to add to their foreskins, and the leaning tower of pisa is not leaning, but the world is.... All in Gods plan.

Rule -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 8:56:32 AM)
It is good that the world is leaning. Thank you, mnottertail.

mnottertail -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 9:01:26 AM)
The worlds leanings are why we have seasons, and why everybody knows the Byrds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg73MRomwSA

tazzygirl -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 11:15:36 AM)
quote: What I say is that if religion is a requirement for some moral (edited: better, ethical, or socially positive) behaviour, Because you are still working under the premise that the behavior from before was somehow better/ethical/socially positive because of religion. Greed is a religion to itself. Power is its altar. The marketplace has become the guiding principle for all nations and people. I dont think anyone could argue those points. However, that "religion" hasn't changed over the past.... 5000 years? Oh, its quite easy to point fingers at a cause of such greed. But the fact remains that as religion (supposedly not greed based) has decreased in its membership, the greed factor has not lessened. The masses are still controlled through th same means. Keep them ignorant, poor and hungry, and they will follow you to the ends of the earth. Is traditional religion not greedy? How can one say? Its tenants say it should not be. Yet those who have held a position of power in traditional religion have also held the money and the power. Religions are made up of people. The assumption is that those people follow a religious life. I have often stated there are people who slap the name of religion on their actions. Yet who has the power within a religion? Those with the money. So rip apart the beliefs of a group of people who do hold true to their religious beliefs based upon the actions of those who are in it for the power and greed of money. Its akin to ripping apart the Constitution because Nixon could not follow the laws of the oath he took for office.... are we now ready to say that the voters were to blame for the blow job Clinton got slapped with an impeachment charge for? History has a bad habit of repeating itself. In the case of religion, it repeats over and over and over again, and no one is willing to talk about the elephant in the room.

PeonForHer -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 2:20:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl History has a bad habit of repeating itself. In the case of religion, it repeats over and over and over again, and no one is willing to talk about the elephant in the room. What is the nature of this 'elephant in the room' for you, Tazzy? (I apologise if you've already described it and I haven't seen it.)

tazzygirl -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 2:45:38 PM)
The elephant me in the room, in my opinion, is that religion is not the sum of its leaders. I think that is reflected in the number of people who "believe" either in a god or a higher power, but do not belong a formal type of religion. Its like the Tea Party. Everyone is listening to the fringe and pressing mute on the majority.

GotSteel -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 2:48:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel Not just sometimes, his answer is consistently the same as it would be if he didn't exist. quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl The link above as studies about intercessory prayer as well as studies about how prayer doesnt work. What works for ME is that people believe prayer works. In a setting of fear, that can make all the difference in recovery. Which is why many physicians and medical personnel advocate the use of prayer to their patients. So I made a claim, you gave this rebuttal but do you think this rebuttal actually contradicts or even addresses my claim? Do you think these results are evidence of a God's manipulations or do you think these results are evidence of a number of documented phenomena where the mind effects the mind/the mind effects the body?

tazzygirl -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 3:03:24 PM)
quote: Do you think these results are evidence of a God's manipulations or do you think these results are evidence of a number of documented phenomena where the mind effects the mind/the mind effects the body? Does it matter? I mean, honestly, in the grand scheme of things, does it matter if god actually answers or not? You get so rooted in your insistence to be correct all the time that you cant see the forest for the trees. Let me make it quite simple. If I have a patient going into surgery who asks me to pray with, or for, them, I will do so. I have witnessed a whole OR team do so because the patient asked. You keep stating, emphatically, that prayer doesnt work. Guess what? For that patient, it just may. quote: documented phenomena where the mind effects the mind/the mind effects the body Even if what you stated is all prayer does.... it works.

tazzygirl -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 3:07:30 PM)
quote: So I made a claim, you gave this rebuttal but do you think this rebuttal actually contradicts or even addresses my claim? My post was not a rebuttal towards you. It was a post in response to Yachtie. Before assuming again, do check out the reply to part.

GotSteel -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 4:50:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Even if what you stated is all prayer does.... it works. I've been accused of cherry picking in this thread but it seems to me like the above is the cherry picked position. quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl If I have a patient going into surgery who asks me to pray with, or for, them, I will do so. I have witnessed a whole OR team do so because the patient asked. You keep stating, emphatically, that prayer doesnt work. Guess what? For that patient, it just may. I would say that on the way into surgery is not an inappropriate time to question ones would view. I would think that this is a circumstance where humoring the patient is generally the way to go. quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Does it matter? I mean, honestly, in the grand scheme of things, does it matter if god actually answers or not? 1. To anyone who cares about truth that position is reprehensible. 2. We're talking about the grand scheme of things according to the dominant world view. Don't you expect that the grand scheme of things matters in the grand scheme of things? 3. Prayer; you're looking at some data that tells you it's helpful, some that it's useless and some that it's harmful. Wouldn't it be likely that an accurate understanding of the causal relationship could allow us to more consistently trigger those benefits or at least make the documented harm less likely?

GotSteel -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 4:57:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl My post was not a rebuttal towards you. It was a post in response to Yachtie. Before assuming again, do check out the reply to part. Touché, I stand corrected.

Rule -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 5:16:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Even if what you stated is all prayer does.... it works. I've been accused of cherry picking in this thread but it seems to me like the above is the cherry picked position. You want to know the unknowable, you want to know what is inside the black box. It functions; let that suffice. quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Does it matter? I mean, honestly, in the grand scheme of things, does it matter if god actually answers or not? 1. To anyone who cares about truth that position is reprehensible. One cannot know the inside of a black box. Your reply is without value. quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel 2. We're talking about the grand scheme of things according to the dominant world view. Don't you expect that the grand scheme of things matters in the grand scheme of things? Sure it does. So now you have got to decide whether you want to join the dominant world view, or the losers. quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel 3. Prayer; you're looking at some data that tells you it's helpful, some that it's useless and some that it's harmful. Wouldn't it be likely that an accurate understanding of the causal relationship could allow us to more consistently trigger those benefits or at least make the documented harm less likely? There is no spoon! You really ought to go see the movie "The matrix" and wise up. You erroneously persist in expecting the Divine to both interact causally and be a person. Neither applies. Spirituality cannot be proven: it must be experienced. I have experienced miracles. You clearly have not. Most snakes are born without legs. Most animals living in caves are born without the ability to perceive light. Some people are born blind or deaf. Lots of people are born without the ability to be spiritually aware - and you are one of them.

Kirata -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 5:35:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel Do you think these results are evidence of a God's manipulations or do you think these results are evidence of a number of documented phenomena where the mind effects the mind/the mind effects the body? Why does it have to be an either-or question? K.

GotSteel -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 5:37:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel I think we've both noticed in the past that we have similar views on the likelihood of various possible theistic positions. I tend to spend my time talking about the positions that are more likely to be held where as I've seen you spend your time talking about positions that are more likely to be non-falsifiable. If that choice of subject makes atheism more like a political position than anything else wouldn't agnosticism also be more like a political position than anything else for precisely the same reasons? quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 Possibly, although in science, it's perfectly valid to say "I don't know." However, if you say "I know" in a scientific context, then it's customary to ask for evidence and proof to demonstrate how you know this to be true. Once the discussion comes out of the scientific realm, then we can be a bit more loosey-goosey and colloquial about how things are worded and expressed. But science has to be more exacting and precise in its use of language. There are certainly some fringe positions on God that have been carefully crafted to be non falsifiable that we can't currently falsify. As such when asked do you know that such positions are false? My answer is no I don't know. However, on account of the track record of naturalism compared to supernaturalism, I'm not exactly holding my breath either.

GotSteel -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 5:41:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata Why does it have to be an either-or question? As in you're looking to only claim some of these results for God or you're looking to introduce a third model of reality?

tazzygirl -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 6:15:04 PM)
quote: quote: quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Even if what you stated is all prayer does.... it works. I've been accused of cherry picking in this thread but it seems to me like the above is the cherry picked position. Thats hardly cherry picking. Having seen it for myself, having witnessed it myself, having been the one praying my heart out.... quote: quote: quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl If I have a patient going into surgery who asks me to pray with, or for, them, I will do so. I have witnessed a whole OR team do so because the patient asked. You keep stating, emphatically, that prayer doesnt work. Guess what? For that patient, it just may. I would say that on the way into surgery is not an inappropriate time to question ones would view. I would think that this is a circumstance where humoring the patient is generally the way to go. Rather magnanimous of you to allow people what makes them feel better... at that time. quote: quote: quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Does it matter? I mean, honestly, in the grand scheme of things, does it matter if god actually answers or not? 1. To anyone who cares about truth that position is reprehensible. Its only reprehensible because it isnt your truth. If I agreed with you, and went against the truth of another, you would be applauding. quote: 2. We're talking about the grand scheme of things according to the dominant world view. Don't you expect that the grand scheme of things matters in the grand scheme of things? I consider life vs death a bit grander than your version of truth. quote: 3. Prayer; you're looking at some data that tells you it's helpful, some that it's useless and some that it's harmful. Wouldn't it be likely that an accurate understanding of the causal relationship could allow us to more consistently trigger those benefits or at least make the documented harm less likely? Im looking at data. Im looking at my own history. Im looking at the history of many, many patients I have cared for. What are you looking at? By an accurate understanding, as you suggesting a scientific understanding? I have seen Drs become extremely puzzled by the absence of a tumor that was present before. I have witnessed patients who should have passed on long before hold on by sheer will for that one person who has not visited yet. I have witnessed the live birth of a fetus that was dead on ultrasound just moments before going into the ER. I have witnessed many things the scientific community cannot explain. And you want me to agree that we need to scietifically study these things? If you feel a desire to do so, then please do. I have no issue with science. I do have a major issue with people demanding that prayer does not work, thats its an exercise in futility, or a waste of time. Now, of course, you will poo poo away my post and make some snide comment about science not agreeing with me. You can call what I have as a form of "blind faith". When science gets around to actually explaining why the medical miracles occur, then maybe I will listen to what science has to say about the religious.

Kirata -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 7:23:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel As in you're looking to only claim some of these results for God or you're looking to introduce a third model of reality? No to the first part of your question. But, introducing a third model? What are the first two? I just asked a question, that's all. K.

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