RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (Full Version)

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GotSteel -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 8:08:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Thats hardly cherry picking. Having seen it for myself, having witnessed it myself, having been the one praying my heart out....

That's very much cherry picking, or if you prefer a more formal term confirmation bias.




Kirata -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 10:27:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

you're looking at some data that tells you it's helpful, some that it's useless and some that it's harmful.

No conclusions about the efficacy of prayer can be drawn from any of the major prayer studies with which I'm familiar. All of them are fatally flawed, not least of all because none of the designs provided even remotely adequate controls. A 2009 study conducted at Brandeis University, evaluating the procedures and methodologies employed in 18 prayer studies published between 1965 and 2006, concluded that they revealed more about the different experimenters and their assumptions than about what they claimed to be studying.

But that said, there is a long history of experimentation establishing the positive effects of beneficent intention in everything from simple life forms to animal disease models (for examples, see within). Additionally, positive effects have been reported in IVF-ET implantation rates and wound healing in non-human primates. At this point, there really isn't any question about whether or not beneficent intention works. The questions are all about how and when and why.

K.




MrBlue76 -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 11:11:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

What I say is that if religion is a requirement for some moral (edited: better, ethical, or socially positive) behaviour,


Because you are still working under the premise that the behavior from before was somehow better/ethical/socially positive because of religion.


No, I'm saying that if THAT was the case, the obvious decrease in importance of religion in people's life would have supposed some degree of social descontrol. Which answers to this that CountrySong said:
quote:

ORIGINAL: CountrySong
“If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.” (“Si Dieu n’existait pas, il faudrait l’inventer.”) - Voltaire
We need God to ease our fears of big bad nature and to control the masses. If God did not exist what right would someone have to rule over someone else? Prehaps the right of strength and the survival of the fittest but that does not sit well with us and we call it tyrany. It is much better to let God take the blame/credit for the cruelty of man to man in the fight for survival rather than take responsibility for it ourselves!





tazzygirl -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/10/2012 11:30:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Thats hardly cherry picking. Having seen it for myself, having witnessed it myself, having been the one praying my heart out....

That's very much cherry picking, or if you prefer a more formal term confirmation bias.



Ah, so when you dont believe based upon everything you read, then its perfectly fine. But when I bring in data, personal experience, professional experience... its suddenly biased.

quote:

Now, of course, you will poo poo away my post and make some snide comment about science not agreeing with me.


Funny how I had you pegged. [:D]




Rule -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/11/2012 2:46:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBlue76
It is much better to let God take the blame/credit for the cruelty of man to man in the fight for survival rather than take responsibility for it ourselves!

I do not know whether Blue siad that or someone else.

I do know that the statement is incorrect, as it is negated by the principle of free will. The Divine does not meddle in the affairs of our universe on the Divine's own accord. Pushing responsibility onto the Divine is wrong.




MrBlue76 -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/11/2012 4:28:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBlue76
It is much better to let God take the blame/credit for the cruelty of man to man in the fight for survival rather than take responsibility for it ourselves!

I do not know whether Blue siad that or someone else.

I do know that the statement is incorrect, as it is negated by the principle of free will. The Divine does not meddle in the affairs of our universe on the Divine's own accord. Pushing responsibility onto the Divine is wrong.



No, I didn't, I was quoting there Countrysong. As a non believer, I also think that pushing responsability onto something that doesn't exist is wrong, of course. ;)
(Except when that button was pressed and a lot of horrible things happened because of that, and none of them were my fault, even when I was very close to that button. That was God, not me.)




Zonie63 -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/11/2012 5:35:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Possibly, although in science, it's perfectly valid to say "I don't know." However, if you say "I know" in a scientific context, then it's customary to ask for evidence and proof to demonstrate how you know this to be true. Once the discussion comes out of the scientific realm, then we can be a bit more loosey-goosey and colloquial about how things are worded and expressed. But science has to be more exacting and precise in its use of language.


There are certainly some fringe positions on God that have been carefully crafted to be non falsifiable that we can't currently falsify. As such when asked do you know that such positions are false? My answer is no I don't know. However, on account of the track record of naturalism compared to supernaturalism, I'm not exactly holding my breath either.


I'm not holding my breath either.

To me, if someone has a belief that can't be proven or falsified, I just leave it at that. As long as they don't use their beliefs to violate the rights of other human beings, then there's nothing for me to complain about.

On the other hand, if they DO violate the rights of others, then that's a whole other matter. Those are usually the same ones who claim to believe in something, yet their actions demonstrate otherwise. For example, those who don't follow the Golden Rule, turn the other cheek, or love their enemies have already violated their own belief system, making them hypocrites.

But I just try to take it on a case-by-case basis.





Kirata -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/11/2012 5:39:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

There are certainly some fringe positions on God that have been carefully crafted to be non falsifiable that we can't currently falsify. As such when asked do you know that such positions are false? My answer is no I don't know. However, on account of the track record of naturalism compared to supernaturalism, I'm not exactly holding my breath either.

Why do you dismiss any concept of God that can't be falsified as carefully crafted fringe stuff? Is there a problem with a thread exploring ideas of God that you can't walk in and step on?

K.




PeonForHer -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/11/2012 6:04:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

There are certainly some fringe positions on God that have been carefully crafted to be non falsifiable that we can't currently falsify. As such when asked do you know that such positions are false? My answer is no I don't know. However, on account of the track record of naturalism compared to supernaturalism, I'm not exactly holding my breath either.

Why do you dismiss any concept of God that can't be falsified as carefully crafted fringe stuff? Is there a problem with a thread exploring ideas of God that you can't walk in and step on?

K.



Possibly because concepts of God that can't be falsified have been integral to shaping the societies that you and I live in, K.

We have a major dilemma, in these times, on this subject. On the one hand, we in the West have evolved a mature, essentially liberal, understanding of the principle that we should all be open to ideas and beliefs that are beyond and outside of what we've brought up to accept. On the other hand, most of us who haven't bought into religious systems (or ended up buying out of them) have come to realise just how much said religious systems pervade all the structures of society that we live in. The upshot is that we'll try, one moment, to be accepting and understanding; at the next moment, to rip the relevant belief system to shreds.

It's never going to be an easy ride for religionists, henceforth. It hasn't been since the Enlightenment, in fact. TBH, they are paying, now, for the easy ride that they've had for so many centuries.








Kirata -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/11/2012 6:41:03 PM)



The Enlightenment produced the Reign of Terror, Peon. If it is possible to argue against mob rule and the guillotine without attacking and tearing down the entire Enlightenment, then it's possible to argue against theocractic prejudice and hatred without attacking and tearing down all belief in God.

Unless, of course, the former is just a cover for an agenda aimed at achieving the latter.

K.









atursvcMaam -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/11/2012 8:41:30 PM)

There is a God, it is you. Prove to me that anything happened before you existed except that you imagined and produced it, and prove to me that things will continue to exist after you are gone. How do you know that anything exists in the world that you don't perceive? With that much power and ability, you must be God. I am impressed, and am pleased to meet you. I, on the other hand am that nasty little bit of self doubt that you bring into the world from time to time to keep you amused and keep you on your toes. By the way, this school of thought makes everything your doing, your fault, and your problem. have the best day you ever had in your life.




tazzygirl -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/11/2012 8:49:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

There is a God, it is you. Prove to me that anything happened before you existed except that you imagined and produced it, and prove to me that things will continue to exist after you are gone. How do you know that anything exists in the world that you don't perceive? With that much power and ability, you must be God. I am impressed, and am pleased to meet you. I, on the other hand am that nasty little bit of self doubt that you bring into the world from time to time to keep you amused and keep you on your toes. By the way, this school of thought makes everything your doing, your fault, and your problem. have the best day you ever had in your life.


I saw a delightfully appropriate sign today... at all places a Catholic Church.

Pray as if everything depends on God and work as if everything depends on you.




atursvcMaam -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/11/2012 9:07:07 PM)

That is very good. two of my favorites are, I know what you did, and i still love you, signed "God". and my very favorite: "I don't know who built the church, but i made the sun shine" also signed God.

Don't worry so much, you will know your answer sooner than you hope to.




tazzygirl -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/11/2012 9:12:51 PM)

My answer?




velvetears -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/11/2012 9:27:30 PM)

It is not for me to give you evidence it is for the universe to supply that and for you to have the wisdom to see it.




tazzygirl -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/11/2012 9:32:07 PM)

Hmmm.. I am hoping that was not directed towards me but towards the thread in general. If not, you have me pegged completely wrong.




Kirata -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/12/2012 2:56:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBlue76

the obvious decrease in importance of religion in people's life ...


[image]http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/wrmqewrg-0-ssnbj2i5q5g.gif[/image]

K.




velvetears -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/12/2012 6:27:35 AM)

No not at you, just in general.




GotSteel -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/12/2012 10:11:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
personal experience, professional experience...


That's the same sort of anecdotal evidence that caused our ancestors to conclude that fairies were real. Wouldn't you agree that there's a reason the medical profession does drug trials instead of trusting in the above sort of evidence?

Now if you want to talk about data, by all means, how did you conclude by looking at the data that prayer works?




tazzygirl -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/12/2012 10:32:38 AM)

How do you conclude by looking at data that it doesnt?

I do not question what works for a patient when it comes to personal beliefs. I have burned sage at the request of patients. I have prayed at their bedside.

Prayer has been shown through studies to reduce stress, slightly more than self-motivation.

http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2009/07/prayer-reduces-stress-but-no-more-than.html

A study on the effects of prayer for nurses who are under stress.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3084171/

A study from the University of Florida and Wayne State University shows most older adults use prayer more than any other alternative health remedy to help manage the stress in their lives. In addition, nurse researchers found that prayer is the most frequently reported alternative treatment used by seniors to feel better or maintain health in general.

UF College of Nursing associate professor Ann L. Horgas and Karen S. Dunn, a Wayne State University doctoral student, report 96 percent of older adults use prayer to specifically cope with stress.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/01/010103113921.htm

Reflecting a recent shift toward delegitimizing studies of intercessory prayer, recent commentators in the medical literature concluded: "We do not need science to validate our spiritual beliefs, as we would never use faith to validate our scientific data."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090617154401.htm

“Research shows that people who are more religious or spiritual use their spirituality to cope with life,” notes Dr. Lee.

“They’re better able to cope with stress, they heal faster from illness, and they experience increased benefits to their health and well-being. On an intellectual level, spirituality connects you to the world, which in turn enables you to stop trying to control things all by yourself. When you feel part of a greater whole, it’s easy to understand that you aren’t responsible for everything that happens in life.”


Among the research she cites is one study of approximately 126,000 people that found that the people who frequently attended services increased their odds of living by 29 percent. Another study conducted by the National Institute for Health Care Research (NIHR) illustrated that the Canadian college students who were connected to their campus ministries visited doctors less often and were less stressed during difficult times than the other students. The students who had strong religious correlations also had higher positive feelings, lower levels of depression, and were better equipped at handling stress.

Dr. Lee points to the research of Harold Koenig, M.D., associate professor of medicine and psychiatry at Duke University, who surveys more than a thousand studies appraising the effects of prayer on health in his book Handbook of Religion and Health. Among them:

Hospitalized people who never attended church have an average stay of three times longer than people who attend regularly.
Heart patients were fourteen times more likely to die following surgery if they did not practice a religion.
Elderly people who never or rarely attended church had a stroke rate double that of people who attended regularly.
People who are more religious tend to become depressed less often. When they do become depressed, they recover more quickly.
Why all the benefits of prayer and religion?

First, religion and faith provide social support, a consistent element of happiness and good health. Regular churchgoers not only get support from their community, but they also GIVE support to others, and the altruistic activity promotes better health.

Second, religion reinforces a belief system. People bond when they hold common opinions and beliefs, even it’s a form of gossiping.

Third, religion and spirituality do what a parent or supervisor at work does: give you 10 laws to abide by. And, although you may not like the regulations set upon you and try to break a few, you are glad they exist, because, for the most part, your life runs more smoothly when you follow them.

Finally, faith attaches meaning to events. It gives folks hope, the ultimate stress reducer. Hope, doctors say, is about the best thing you can do for your body. It’s better than a placebo.


http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2010/03/21/spirituality-and-prayer-relieve-stress/

Many have proven before me that both prayer and faith are effective.




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