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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 6:30:22 PM   
SpiritedRadiance


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr



As I said, earlier: this is an area where the law hasn't caught up to society.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



No this is a case where men still think they have the right to own a woman's uterus, and get huffy when the woman says no...

Im more then fine with you shoving a 10 pound watermelon through your penis, In fact Id pay money to see half the men who spout this shit try to do it....


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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 6:35:14 PM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance

I will say it again, if a man believes abortion is wrong, he should only fuck people who also believe that. He shouldnt get his panties in a wad or a stick up his ass for shoving his cock in a hole who is going to choose a different path in life.




Even if that talk is had before sex, and both agree that if pregnancy occurs, abortion would happen, you must account for the emotion and connection a woman has when carrying a child. It's well and good to say I will abort an unplanned pregnancy, but until I am actually faced with the emotions of that situation, I will not truly know.

I think too much is being placed on the man, here. A man (and a woman) can have all the talks in the world before sex, but every good intention can be blown to smithereens with a positive pregnancy test. There's just no way to dictate one's response.

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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 6:37:59 PM   
SpiritedRadiance


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And thats fine, however, Im a woman, someones change of mine isnt my issue, If it was agreed before sex that if an unplanned pregnancy happened an abortion was on the table... then it suddenly cant come off the table because he changes his mind. It sucks Im not saying it doesnt.

But i will not die because he changes his mind....


_____________________________

"Theres nothing in life like the feeling of cool leather sliding over your skin, the tears that fill your eyes as you realize someone else thinks you deserve it even if you havent reached that conclusion yet"- Forever to remember 11/5/11

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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 6:42:49 PM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance

And thats fine, however, Im a woman, someones change of mine isnt my issue, If it was agreed before sex that if an unplanned pregnancy happened an abortion was on the table... then it suddenly cant come off the table because he changes his mind. It sucks Im not saying it doesnt.

But i will not die because he changes his mind....




I do think that health issues for the mother is another matter altogether. I wouldn't even try to debate that and I think if someone does ever try to debate that with you, they just want to hear themselves talk. Again...many variables, no one answer.

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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 6:46:26 PM   
SpiritedRadiance


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I see it as more black and white... a woman has to carry the child, they have to leave work to have the child and recover, they have to go through the entire process, they have to do the doctor appointments... they have to shove the ten pound watermelon through their vagina... and then try to recover from that..They have to deal with the risk of loosing their job, the costs of what insurance doesnt cover...

The man has to cum....

Im sorry but in the debate i think its 90/10 to the woman... Because they have to do everything, if the world could change... and men could do all of that, im all for making it 50/50... but the realities are its not...

It sucks and its not fair but thats life..


_____________________________

"Theres nothing in life like the feeling of cool leather sliding over your skin, the tears that fill your eyes as you realize someone else thinks you deserve it even if you havent reached that conclusion yet"- Forever to remember 11/5/11

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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 6:54:03 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Well, Satyr, I do have to agree with you to an extent.  One thing I told my sons was that if they got a girl pregnant, it was very likely to fuck up their lives, since the girl would be the one making the decision as to the outcome of the pregnancy, and if she elected to have the baby and raise it, they would very likely be liable for child support. So much for college and any plans for the future.  Happens all the time.

Our conclusions as to how to remedy this is somewhat different.  You apparently believe child support and other laws should be changed so the would be father is off the hook.  I have a somewhat different solution, and that is what I told my sons.  Don't get anyone pregnant until you are ready and prepared to be a father.  It is your responsibility, as much as the woman's, to make sure you are using adequate birth control.  In fact, since you feel so strongly about the issue, I would go so far as to say it is more your responsibility, since you are opposed to abortion and yet seem offended by the thought of supporting a child.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as my mother used to say.


Wow. I have utmost respect for the way you have raised your sons. I wish more parents were like you. I often feel that parents of boys have the attitude of "boys will be boys" and do not have the type of conversation that you had with your sons around sex, pregnancy, and responsibility. We need more parents like you. Because I seem to encounter the men who didn't have such a no-nonsense parent and I don't like the lackadaisical attitude they have towards pregnancy risk. I understand that when the blood rushes to the nether regions that men don't always think straight. But they really need to pause and think. At whatever age, the financial responsibility for a child can be a huge burden. I think one has to be prepared for it, or not. And if not, appropriate caution ought to be exerted.

As long as men continue to treat birth control and the pregnancy consequences as a female only issue (and in my experience very few men raise these issues before having sex), then I think they forfeit decision making authority after the fact. But a man who has made it clear to me up front that preventing pregnancy is a high priority, and who does his part to ensure it doesn't happen, would certainly have a different level of consideration from me around the issue of an unwanted pregnancy - i.e., if I made the decision to keep a child in those circumstances I would personally not feel good about having him give me child support. I would feel much more that the decision to keep the child was mine, and my responsibility going forward, if he had made it clear that he did not want to support a child.

But again, how many men have this discussion up front with women - BEFORE things get all hot and heavy. In my experience, very few.

Anyway, kudos to you Iamsemisweet for placing responsibility on your sons for their sexual decisions. What is a man if he cannot be responsible for this most basic of things - the outcome of willingly deciding to have sex with a woman?


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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 6:58:16 PM   
Kaliko


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And still, I feel that talking about job loss and watermelons through the vagina and doctor appointments is trivial compared to the enormity of ending a life. (No, not trying to get back to the argument of when life begins, but that is what it is to many people.) Using convenience and circumstances to argue against a child being born seems short-sighted to me. It's so much more than life sucking and not being fair. It's life itself. I don't see how scheduling conflicts factor in to a decision of such magnitude.

< Message edited by Kaliko -- 2/2/2012 6:59:26 PM >

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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 7:06:41 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

If you (general "you" referring to either gender) want a baby, be in a committed relationship and discuss all the repercussions before having unprotected sex.

Don't, "Whoopsie, well, now that you're accidentally pregnant, this is what I want you to do."


Yes, because only people in committed relationships get pregnant. It's too bad the sperm can't be trained to figure that out.

Peace and comfort,

Michael



My point is that men actually do have power beforehand - don't have unprotected sex; make sure the women you have sex with share your views.

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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 7:12:15 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

And still, I feel that talking about job loss and watermelons through the vagina and doctor appointments is trivial compared to the enormity of ending a life. (No, not trying to get back to the argument of when life begins, but that is what it is to many people.) Using convenience and circumstances to argue against a child being born seems short-sighted to me. It's so much more than life sucking and not being fair. It's life itself. I don't see how scheduling conflicts factor in to a decision of such magnitude.


I think for those people for whom it feels that they are ending a life - then should they ever end up in that predicament, they can make the choice that they feel comfortable with.

I don't personally feel that it is. So why should someone else's definition of when life begins affect my personal choice around issues like abortion? I am only asking for the same respect that I am giving the other person - i.e., I would NEVER force someone to have an abortion.

And even for those who feel it is a life, I want to know why of all the friends I know who have had miscarriages (from every religion imaginable, Catholic, Jewish, Hindu, Protestant, Moslem), not a single one had any kind of death related service to deal with the miscarriage. If it is a life, why do most cultures not have a death ritual around miscarriage? Why is there no baptism/naming ceremony, etc.? Why are there no last rites? Not ONE of my friends has ever had anything done to commemorate the death of her fetus by miscarriage. Not one of them was asked to so by their religious leader, parent, spouse, in-laws, etc. Someone out there explain to me why that is the case? Most women do not inform anyone other than their doctor or spouse when they have miscarried. Most cultures do not announce a pregnancy until after at least the first trimester, if not later. Again, someone tell me why this is the approach to pregnancy/miscarriage by all of the major religions (and if there are religious rites around miscarriage, NO ONE I know has EVER done it.) (And I am speaking of my married friends, who were married in their faith, and most of whom are religious.)


< Message edited by fucktoyprincess -- 2/2/2012 7:14:03 PM >


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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 7:26:39 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

I feel that legality and DNA results and all of that are small potatoes compared to the enormity of ending a pregnancy - taking what some consider to be a life - possibly against the wishes of the father. I can't help but look at it beyond the bounds of our societal expectations or our legal system and just ask myself "What feels like the right thing to do?" That is the bigger picture, in my opinion.


And you are certainly right to feel the way you do. I dont happen to agree with your belief. What may feel right for you may not feel right for someone else.

The expression about walking in someone else's shoes comes to mind right now.

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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 7:27:36 PM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

I don't personally feel that it is. So why should someone else's definition of when life begins affect my personal choice around issues like abortion?




You shouldn't, of course. I think I've been pretty careful to state that I don't expect others to feel as I do.

I feel differently, is all.

quote:



And even for those who feel it is a life, I want to know why of all the friends I know who have had miscarriages (from every religion imaginable, Catholic, Jewish, Hindu, Protestant, Moslem), not a single one had any kind of death related service to deal with the miscarriage. If it is a life, why do most cultures not have a death ritual around miscarriage? Why is there no baptism/naming ceremony, etc.? Why are there no last rites? Not ONE of my friends has ever had anything done to commemorate the death of her fetus by miscarriage. Not one of them was asked to so by their religious leader, parent, spouse, in-laws, etc. Someone out there explain to me why that is the case? Most women do not inform anyone other than their doctor or spouse when they have miscarried. Most cultures do not announce a pregnancy until after at least the first trimester, if not later. Again, someone tell me why this is the approach to pregnancy/miscarriage by all of the major religions (and if there are religious rites around miscarriage, NO ONE I know has EVER done it.) (And I am speaking of my married friends, who were married in their faith, and most of whom are religious.)



And here again, I feel that these are trivialities. Whether one holds a service or not doesn't negate the fact that they've ended what would eventually turn into a child. My own moral compass isn't dictated by religious rituals.

(Should I stress again that this is only how I feel, and that I know that there are many different and valid viewpoints because there are so many variables and I feel there is no one right answer? Just in case I should, I just did. :)

< Message edited by Kaliko -- 2/2/2012 7:28:41 PM >

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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 7:36:35 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

And still, I feel that talking about job loss and watermelons through the vagina and doctor appointments is trivial compared to the enormity of ending a life.


And at 9 weeks, which is when the majority of abortions are obtained, I don't see it as a life.

quote:

Using convenience and circumstances to argue against a child being born seems short-sighted to me. It's so much more than life sucking and not being fair. It's life itself. I don't see how scheduling conflicts factor in to a decision of such magnitude.


Its not like abortions are new. They were legal for centuries. States legalized them for a time.



Abortion has been performed for thousands of years, and in every society that has been studied. It was legal in the United States from the time the earliest settlers arrived. At the time the Constitution was adopted, abortions before "quickening" were openly advertised and commonly performed.

In the mid-to-late 1800s states began passing laws that made abortion illegal. The motivations for anti-abortion laws varied from state to state. One of the reasons included fears that the population would be dominated by the children of newly arriving immigrants, whose birth rates were higher than those of "native" Anglo-Saxon women.



Lets face it, sterile technique was not huge in the 1800's.

But I do have to ask... how would you feel if you were forced to get an abortion?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 7:41:47 PM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

But I do have to ask... how would you feel if you were forced to get an abortion?



Well I would hate it, of course. I guess I don't understand the question. How would I be forced into an abortion?

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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 8:33:44 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

But I do have to ask... how would you feel if you were forced to get an abortion?



Well I would hate it, of course. I guess I don't understand the question. How would I be forced into an abortion?


The same way someone can be forced into having a baby they do not want. If you were pregnant, and were forced to have an abortion... because the father demands it... because the state makes you...

It goes back to your earlier statement to me earlier....

quote:

And if a woman doesn't want to have children, or if a woman doesn't want to put herself in a position to have to take the life of a child away from a father, it's HER responsibility to handle the matter. Whining that the man doesn't have any say over her body doesn't wash.


You would not stand to have anyone force you to have an abortion. Yet it should be agreed upon that a woman, who has taken all precautions (lets face it, many forms of bc fail for many reasons), can be forced to have an abortion because someone else said so.

I dont understand that.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Kaliko)
Profile   Post #: 254
RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 8:44:44 PM   
Trismagistus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

But I do have to ask... how would you feel if you were forced to get an abortion?



Well I would hate it, of course. I guess I don't understand the question. How would I be forced into an abortion?


The same way someone can be forced into having a baby they do not want. If you were pregnant, and were forced to have an abortion... because the father demands it... because the state makes you...

It goes back to your earlier statement to me earlier....

quote:

And if a woman doesn't want to have children, or if a woman doesn't want to put herself in a position to have to take the life of a child away from a father, it's HER responsibility to handle the matter. Whining that the man doesn't have any say over her body doesn't wash.


You would not stand to have anyone force you to have an abortion. Yet it should be agreed upon that a woman, who has taken all precautions (lets face it, many forms of bc fail for many reasons), can be forced to have an abortion because someone else said so.

I dont understand that.



I love how you like to absolve all women of any responsibility in the equation other than the final decision on abortion, it has to be the man's job to decide whether sex occurs in the first place and to provide for any sort of contraception, and if for any reason that contraception happens to fail it is of course the man's fault and he is beholden to the decision of the woman no matter what, without regards to his wishes, in essence the woman is labeled as a poor helpless victim of circumstance while the man is at best just a sperm donor whose feelings about the pregnancy are inconsequential and totally pointless and not up for debate at the same time. I don't know exactly what you're getting at here other than that you have an obvious and bizzarely skewed view of social responsibility. Both parties are equally responsible, both parties deserve an equal say, otherwise it's just sexist and unfair. Now admittedly I fully support the idea that a woman should be allowed to choose wether she has a child or not, but a man should be able to choose if he is to pay child support by the same virtues on the basis of a prebirth opt out that denies him both any right to custody and any responsibility for the general welfare and support of the child, that would be an example of something that would make the equation fair, after all why should either party be forced to do anything they really don't believe is correct? the alternative of course is that women hold all the power of reproduction unless someone haymakers them in the stomache or tosses them down some stairs, which although I don't support I do see the validity of simply because 6 to 12 months in prison for domestic abuse is a hell of alot less problematic than 18 years of child support. I guess what I'm saying is, equality must be established, the alternative is hellish for one or the other party.

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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 8:51:27 PM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

But I do have to ask... how would you feel if you were forced to get an abortion?



Well I would hate it, of course. I guess I don't understand the question. How would I be forced into an abortion?


The same way someone can be forced into having a baby they do not want. If you were pregnant, and were forced to have an abortion... because the father demands it... because the state makes you...

It goes back to your earlier statement to me earlier....

quote:

And if a woman doesn't want to have children, or if a woman doesn't want to put herself in a position to have to take the life of a child away from a father, it's HER responsibility to handle the matter. Whining that the man doesn't have any say over her body doesn't wash.


You would not stand to have anyone force you to have an abortion. Yet it should be agreed upon that a woman, who has taken all precautions (lets face it, many forms of bc fail for many reasons), can be forced to have an abortion because someone else said so.

I dont understand that.



The bolded statement was in reference to a woman holding just as much responsibility as a man in taking precautions to not get pregnant in the first place. I wasn't referring to abortion there. Perhaps that was unclear.

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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 8:58:46 PM   
Mhari


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Personally I feel the arguments based on the assumption that pregnancy is a consequence of sex and must there for be accepted and prepared for are complete and utter bullhockey. Until I can get one person who will state (100% truthfully) that they never EVER had sex unless they were trying to have a baby I will continue to call bullshit on this particular argument. For them life begins at conception sure, but they're trying to prevent what would become an eventual baby by using contraceptives. If they were truly pro-life they would completely abstain until they were 100% ready for a baby.

Does this mean I think abstinence only education works? Heck no! It doesn't. I graduated from abstinence only programs in high school. I was the chick who stood outside class with a bowl of condoms and little printed 'here's how to use them' sheets. Why? Because even at 15  I was calling bullshit on the idea that sex only happened after marriage. I knew my classmates couldn't afford condoms (heck I couldn't really either, my first job pretty much funded keeping my class baby-free) and gods know school wasn't going to give them out.

Now, personally, I am childfree by choice. I will never have a child. I have no desire to raise one. And I feel that bringing a child into this world when it's mother has absolutely no desire for it to exist is the worst form of child abuse ever. Kids always know when they weren't wanted. And I don't see a line of pro-lifers knocking down the doors of unwilling moms offering to adopt their unwanted children and give them good homes. If I ever end up pregnant due to critical IUD fail then yes I am aborting it. Because frankly no life at all is a hell of a lot better than what whatever that child would face once it got here.

And don't tell me to go get my damned tubes tied or my useless uterus removed because guess what? No Doctor that I can find will. If you know of one who will sterilize someone at 23 then tell me. It's not as easy as "don't want kids? Get your tubes tied."

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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 9:00:02 PM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The expression about walking in someone else's shoes comes to mind right now.



In case this is referencing what I think it is....I have.

ETA explanation - my own situation resulted in neither an abortion nor a full-term pregnancy - too much to reveal on the boards - but as a young, single college-aged woman, I was indeed faced with the situation and that is how I can feel confident in what I say, even if it isn't as logical as it should be. As I grow older, I accept those feelings more easily.

< Message edited by Kaliko -- 2/2/2012 9:11:19 PM >

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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 9:04:36 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

The bolded statement was in reference to a woman holding just as much responsibility as a man in taking precautions to not get pregnant in the first place. I wasn't referring to abortion there. Perhaps that was unclear.


Oh no, I completely agree that they are both responsible. Reproductive health is the responsibility of the person. Neither should be able to opt out.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 9:10:19 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Tazzy, your entire arguement is one sided and essentially a misandrist fallacy stacked on top of self importance stacked further on top of a hidden desire to make men afraid to fuck women for fear that they'll ruin their lives, so long as there are options to terminate pregnancy there should be a veto in the hand of both parties and no one should be forced to endure either childbirth, or child support on a simple basis of it's my uterus, because it's two people's child either way and if one doesn't want it then it damn sure shouldn't come to term, now I know you don't believe in equality among the sexes so this won't get through but that just makes logical sense.


You dont think women didnt have that hidden fear for decades? Her life ruined because of a need to fuck? Now, suddenly, we are supposed to worry about men and their ability to pay for their responsibilities?

You lose that option when you lose the sperm.

Now, on the other hand, if a woman takes a donation from a sperm bank, then she is agreeing to no child support. The intentional impregnation is with the knowledge that the man will not be in her life, or the child's.

Otherwise, cover it up, get it snipped, or see a good lawyer to draft a "no fault" clause.



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Trismagistus)
Profile   Post #: 260
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