RE: Restaurants and dieting (Full Version)

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OsideGirl -> RE: Restaurants and dieting (2/13/2012 1:59:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Outlier, I am implying from this that you advocate avoiding animal proteins?




And apparently, if you eat a high protein diet, you're doing Atkins.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Restaurants and dieting (2/13/2012 1:59:47 PM)

RT's?
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Dont shoot me for saying this... but RT's has a great salad bar.. and the meats are not pre-marinated. Just ask for no seasoning.




outlier -> RE: Restaurants and dieting (2/13/2012 2:19:25 PM)

I like people who give me the studies and references to back
up what they say.  I have no problem with Dr, Fuhrman when he does.
I don't agree with him all the time, I am not a disciple, I am a researcher
who likes the information so I can make my own informed decision.

What is interesting to me is that his program is very similar to other
programs which have been subjected to peer review research and
have been shown to work. 

Dr Caldwell Esselstyn and his work with heart patients.  He is
more strict than Dr. Fuhrman, more limited, but his program
has been shown to reverse heart disease.  Not just slow it down
but reverse it. 

Dr T. Colin Campbell in his book The China Study essentially agrees
with Dr. Esselstyn.

Dr Terry Wahls who after 7 years put her MS into remission recommends
a plant based diet.  She also recommends "grass fed beef" and "salmon"

And she is the author of over 60 clinical peer reviewed abstracts and papers.

I have a lot more I could quote, I have been researching this lately.

I want all the information I can get, not dogma or opinion.  That is why I
quoted Dr. Fuhrman, because he not only gives his opinion, he footnotes
and gives the sources.  I have the capacity to think and evaluate; so to me
that is the opposite of dangerous. 










tazzygirl -> RE: Restaurants and dieting (2/13/2012 2:21:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

RT's?
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Dont shoot me for saying this... but RT's has a great salad bar.. and the meats are not pre-marinated. Just ask for no seasoning.



Ruby Tuesdays. May be one out your way.




tazzygirl -> RE: Restaurants and dieting (2/13/2012 2:27:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

I like people who give me the studies and references to back
up what they say.  I have no problem with Dr, Fuhrman when he does.
I don't agree with him all the time, I am not a disciple, I am a researcher
who likes the information so I can make my own informed decision.

What is interesting to me is that his program is very similar to other
programs which have been subjected to peer review research and
have been shown to work. 

Dr Caldwell Esselstyn and his work with heart patients.  He is
more strict than Dr. Fuhrman, more limited, but his program
has been shown to reverse heart disease.  Not just slow it down
but reverse it. 

Dr T. Colin Campbell in his book The China Study essentially agrees
with Dr. Esselstyn.

Dr Terry Wahls who after 7 years put her MS into remission recommends
a plant based diet.  She also recommends "grass fed beef" and "salmon"

And she is the author of over 60 clinical peer reviewed abstracts and papers.

I have a lot more I could quote, I have been researching this lately.

I want all the information I can get, not dogma or opinion.  That is why I
quoted Dr. Fuhrman, because he not only gives his opinion, he footnotes
and gives the sources.  I have the capacity to think and evaluate; so to me
that is the opposite of dangerous. 




The problem I have with his way of thinking is that not every diet works for every person. If it was that simple, every Dr would be touting it.

The word "diet" should be removed from our vocabulary. There is healthy eating, and non-healthy eating. However, as each person is unique in both body and disease processes, what is healthy for you could be deadly for another.




outlier -> RE: Restaurants and dieting (2/13/2012 2:34:18 PM)

The problem I have with people who have opinions and don't
back them up is that are making excuses when they don't want to change.





LadyHibiscus -> RE: Restaurants and dieting (2/13/2012 2:50:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

The problem I have with people who have opinions and don't
back them up is that are making excuses when they don't want to change.




Who is that pointed at?

Some of these "diets" touted by medical professionals are actually DANGEROUS.

Eat a variety of foods, in moderation. Be Michael Pollan-esque (though I am not, I confess it freely). All these mad choices are the product of excess--an excess of food quantity and choices. People have lived on what was available to them seasonally for millenia.




areallivehuman -> RE: Restaurants and dieting (2/13/2012 3:09:22 PM)

FR

I am a vegan, and eat no sugar. I don't eat in restaurants often, you can get a decent meal at Asian and Indian places. African cuisine usually features something. I had an Italian chef come out from the kitchen once when I ordered pasta with garlic and oil. He couldn't believe that was all I wanted.




outlier -> RE: Restaurants and dieting (2/13/2012 3:34:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus


quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

The problem I have with people who have opinions and don't
back them up is that are making excuses when they don't want to change.




Who is that pointed at?

Some of these "diets" touted by medical professionals are actually DANGEROUS.

Eat a variety of foods, in moderation. Be Michael Pollan-esque (though I am not, I confess it freely). All these mad choices are the product of excess--an excess of food quantity and choices. People have lived on what was available to them seasonally for millenia.


I agree with you that some are dangerous.  That is why I recommend research and checking
to see who has the sources listed and who has the track record.  I can show many instances of
one doctor contradicting another. 

I have a friend who I have been helping because he has had to change his lifestyle and diet.
You see he had to have a quad bypass last year.  I bring him up because he has a saying he likes.
"There is talking about it, then there is doing it." 

When I find a group of doctors who agree with each other 80-85% of the time and they
have track records of more than 20 years, including peer reviewed research.  And their patients
are all doing extremely well; I tend to pay attention to them. 

My friend is following Dr. Esselstyn's plan.  He is coming off his heart meds faster than
the doctors thought possible.  He is taking no cholesterol lowing meds yet his reading
last week showed his total is 117.  His son is a triathlete who is getting better performance
at a lower heart rate since he starting supporting his father.  And my blood pressure when
I took it last time was 114/72.  I like things that work.  The only thing Dr. Esselstyn is selling
is his book, but the information is out there without buying it. 

Here is his TED talk:  http://www.tedxcambridge.com/thrive/caldwell-b-esselstyn-jr/

Now, I don't follow it a strictly as my friend does.  He put it this way, "You could carry
a 5 pound weight around and it would be a bother.  If you hand it to a man on a tightrope
it could kill him."  And he is the one who had the bypass.  And everyone is going to live
with the consequences of the choices they make.  That is guaranteed

Edit: spelling




tazzygirl -> RE: Restaurants and dieting (2/13/2012 3:35:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

The problem I have with people who have opinions and don't
back them up is that are making excuses when they don't want to change.




Carbs are dangerous for someone with Diabetes. I dont care what source you chose to look for, its a fact. Do you need me to prove that? How many vegetables have carbs? How many fruits are loaded with sugar?

The "Doctor" claiming that following any diet but his is looking for book sales and could care less about the health of the people reading it.




outlier -> RE: Restaurants and dieting (2/13/2012 4:08:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

The problem I have with people who have opinions and don't
back them up is that are making excuses when they don't want to change.




Carbs are dangerous for someone with Diabetes. I dont care what source you chose to look for, its a fact. Do you need me to prove that? How many vegetables have carbs? How many fruits are loaded with sugar?

The "Doctor" claiming that following any diet but his is looking for book sales and could care less about the health of the people reading it.



That kind of simple thinking is part of the problem.  And you  have compound errors here.

To say that all carbs are the same is to equate a bowl of kale and spinach with a cupcake.
As my old logic teacher used to say, "Do you really want to stand by that statement?"
I will prove to you they are not. 

The other major error in your statement is that all sugars are the same and that the body
processes them the same way.  Glucose, fructose and sucrose are all different.  They are
different chemically and most important they are processed by the body differently.

Fruit contains glucose, which is the necessary energy of life.  Fructose is a "toxic poison".
Not my words but the words of Dr. Robert Lustig MD, UCSF Professor of Pediatrics
in the Division of Endocrinology.  Here is a video where he explains the differences. 
Included is a detailed explanation of how the liver deals with each and how each effects
a diabetic.  The video is 1-1/2 hours long. 

Sugar: The Bitter Truth

In it he also makes the point that fiber is a nutrient.  That the speed with which a sugar
hits the liver alters it effects.  So fruit is much healthier than other forms of sugar.  Once
again you are the victim of oversimplified thinking.




hardcybermaster -> RE: Restaurants and dieting (2/13/2012 4:31:25 PM)

I guess this is a bit weird but could I suggest that you maybe don't go out to eat so often?
Try cooking your own food, then you know exactly what you are putting in your body. The net is full of recipes, buy fresh produce not processed shit




kalikshama -> RE: Restaurants and dieting (2/13/2012 4:33:20 PM)

quote:

Hundreds of scientific studies have documented the link between animal products and various cancers.


I noticed that all of the studies in the footnotes were for studies conducted after the introduction of factory farming. (1950s for chicken and 70s for cattle and pork.) I'd be interested in studies that drilled down by CAFO vs grass fed beef, for example. Otherwise, it's like the vitamin E study that used the inferior synthetic vitamin E.

Additionally, is the problem the presence of meat or the absence of vegetables?

Cruciferous vegetables are ...widely considered to be healthy foods, ... high in vitamin C and soluble fibre and contain multiple nutrients and phytochemicals with potential anti-cancer properties: diindolylmethane, sulforaphane and selenium.




tazzygirl -> RE: Restaurants and dieting (2/13/2012 4:36:49 PM)

quote:

That kind of simple thinking is part of the problem.  And you  have compound errors here.

To say that all carbs are the same is to equate a bowl of kale and spinach with a cupcake.
As my old logic teacher used to say, "Do you really want to stand by that statement?"
I will prove to you they are not. 


How many vegetables have carbs?

Kale between 6 - 7 per serving

Lima beans 40

Corn 41

Yes, I stand by that statement. I did not say vegetables had no carbs. I asked how many had carbs. Education is the key. BUT if you have someone who isnt teaching carb counts and just tells you to eat veggies, it can screw someone up badly.

quote:

In it he also makes the point that fiber is a nutrient. That the speed with which a sugar
hits the liver alters it effects. So fruit is much healthier than other forms of sugar. Once
again you are the victim of oversimplified thinking.


No, you are the victim of oversimplified reading.

Again, I never stated fruit had no carbs. Do you know the carb counts on fruits?

Apples... 15 - 20
Bananas 18-52
Kiwi 11 -26

Unless you count carbs, you wont know. A diabetic wont know. Which is my point. Your guru rambling on about diets and how his is the best just dont cover it.

But you go ahead and follow whatever diet you wish. Just dont preach it as the best solution on earth. You could kill someone that way... literally.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Restaurants and dieting (2/13/2012 4:45:17 PM)

I absolute agree with this.  Sometimes, for various reasons, I have to eat out.  Maybe a business meeting, maybe convenience, maybe time, whatever.  But my general philosophy is why eat something at a restaurant that  I could just as easily prepare at home?  That is why I don't eat at chain restaurants; their processed, frozen crap food is the equivalent of a TV dinner.  Why go to a salad bar?  I can buy one of those salad packages at the grocery store, throw some chicken on it, and have the same thing, better and cheaper.
When I do eat out, I want something I probably wouldn't make at home.  Just because I am careful about what I eat doesn't mean I shouldn't enjoy.  That was why I was asking for restaurant suggestions.   When at all possible, I prefer to not only cook, but grow my own food.  After eating chicken I have raised myself, it is hard to go back to eating the junk they sell at the grocery store.  
quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

I guess this is a bit weird but could I suggest that you maybe don't go out to eat so often?
Try cooking your own food, then you know exactly what you are putting in your body. The net is full of recipes, buy fresh produce not processed shit




kalikshama -> RE: Restaurants and dieting (2/13/2012 4:51:36 PM)

Unhappy Meals

By Michael Pollan
The New York Times Magazine, January 28, 2007

Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.

That, more or less, is the short answer to the supposedly incredibly complicated and confusing question of what we humans should eat in order to be maximally healthy.

...But we do understand some of the simplest relationships, like the zero-sum relationship: that if you eat a lot of meat you’re probably not eating a lot of vegetables. This simple fact may explain why populations that eat diets high in meat have higher rates of coronary heart disease and cancer than those that don’t. Yet nutritionism encourages us to look elsewhere for the explanation: deep within the meat itself, to the culpable nutrient, which scientists have long assumed to be the saturated fat. So they are baffled when large-population studies, like the Women’s Health Initiative, fail to find that reducing fat intake significantly reduces the incidence of heart disease or cancer.

Of course thanks to the low-fat fad (inspired by the very same reductionist fat hypothesis), it is entirely possible to reduce your intake of saturated fat without significantly reducing your consumption of animal protein: just drink the low-fat milk and order the skinless chicken breast or the turkey bacon. So maybe the culprit nutrient in meat and dairy is the animal protein itself, as some researchers now hypothesize. (The Cornell nutritionist T. Colin Campbell argues as much in his recent book, ”The China Study.”) Or, as the Harvard epidemiologist Walter C. Willett suggests, it could be the steroid hormones typically present in the milk and meat; these hormones (which occur naturally in meat and milk but are often augmented in industrial production) are known to promote certain cancers.




kalikshama -> RE: Restaurants and dieting (2/13/2012 4:54:31 PM)

1. Eat food. Though in our current state of confusion, this is much easier said than done. So try this: Don’t eat anything your great-great-grandmother wouldn’t recognize as food. (Sorry, but at this point Moms are as confused as the rest of us, which is why we have to go back a couple of generations, to a time before the advent of modern food products.) There are a great many foodlike items in the supermarket your ancestors wouldn’t recognize as food (Go-Gurt? Breakfast-cereal bars? Nondairy creamer?); stay away from these.

2. Avoid even those food products that come bearing health claims. They’re apt to be heavily processed, and the claims are often dubious at best. Don’t forget that margarine, one of the first industrial foods to claim that it was more healthful than the traditional food it replaced, turned out to give people heart attacks. When Kellogg’s can boast about its Healthy Heart Strawberry Vanilla cereal bars, health claims have become hopelessly compromised. (The American Heart Association charges food makers for their endorsement.) Don’t take the silence of the yams as a sign that they have nothing valuable to say about health.

3. Especially avoid food products containing ingredients that are a) unfamiliar, b) unpronounceable c) more than five in number — or that contain high-fructose corn syrup. None of these characteristics are necessarily harmful in and of themselves, but all of them are reliable markers for foods that have been highly processed.

4. Get out of the supermarket whenever possible. You won’t find any high-fructose corn syrup at the farmer’s market; you also won’t find food harvested long ago and far away. What you will find are fresh whole foods picked at the peak of nutritional quality. Precisely the kind of food your great-great-grandmother would have recognized as food.

5. Pay more, eat less. The American food system has for a century devoted its energies and policies to increasing quantity and reducing price, not to improving quality. There’s no escaping the fact that better food — measured by taste or nutritional quality (which often correspond) — costsmore, because it has been grown or raised less intensively and with more care. Not everyone can afford to eat well in America, which is shameful, but most of us can: Americans spend, on average, less than 10 percent of their income on food, down from 24 percent in 1947, and less than the citizens of any other nation. And those of us who can afford to eat well should. Paying more for food well grown in good soils — whether certified organic or not — will contribute not only to your health (by reducing exposure to pesticides) but also to the health of others who might not themselves be able to afford that sort of food: the people who grow it and the people who live downstream, and downwind, of the farms where it is grown.

”Eat less” is the most unwelcome advice of all, but in fact the scientific case for eating a lot less than we currently do is compelling. ”Calorie restriction” has repeatedly been shown to slow aging in animals, and many researchers (including Walter Willett, the Harvard epidemiologist) believe it offers the single strongest link between diet and cancer prevention. Food abundance is a problem, but culture has helped here, too, by promoting the idea of moderation. Once one of the longest-lived people on earth, the Okinawans practiced a principle they called ”Hara Hachi Bu”: eat until you are 80 percent full. To make the ”eat less” message a bit more palatable, consider that quality may have a bearing on quantity: I don’t know about you, but the better the quality of the food I eat, the less of it I need to feel satisfied. All tomatoes are not created equal.

6. Eat mostly plants, especially leaves. Scientists may disagree on what’s so good about plants — the antioxidants? Fiber? Omega-3s? — but they do agree that they’re probably really good for you and certainly can’t hurt. Also, by eating a plant-based diet, you’ll be consuming far fewer calories, since plant foods (except seeds) are typically less ”energy dense” than the other things you might eat. Vegetarians are healthier than carnivores, but near vegetarians (”flexitarians”) are as healthy as vegetarians. Thomas Jefferson was on to something when he advised treating meat more as a flavoring than a food.

7. Eat more like the French. Or the Japanese. Or the Italians. Or the Greeks. Confounding factors aside, people who eat according to the rules of a traditional food culture are generally healthier than we are. Any traditional diet will do: if it weren’t a healthy diet, the people who follow it wouldn’t still be around. True, food cultures are embedded in societies and economies and ecologies, and some of them travel better than others: Inuit not so well as Italian.

In borrowing from a food culture, pay attention to how a culture eats, as well as to what it eats. In the case of the French paradox, it may not be the dietary nutrients that keep the French healthy (lots of saturated fat and alcohol?!) so much as the dietary habits: small portions, no seconds or snacking, communal meals — and the serious pleasure taken in eating. (Worrying about diet can’t possibly be good for you.) Let culture be your guide, not science.

8. Cook. And if you can, plant a garden. To take part in the intricate and endlessly interesting processes of providing for our sustenance is the surest way to escape the culture of fast food and the values implicit in it: that food should be cheap and easy; that food is fuel and not communion. The culture of the kitchen, as embodied in those enduring traditions we call cuisines, contains more wisdom about diet and health than you are apt to find in any nutrition journal or journalism. Plus, the food you grow yourself contributes to your health long before you sit down to eat it. So you might want to think about putting down this article now and picking up a spatula or hoe.

9. Eat like an omnivore. Try to add new species, not just new foods, to your diet. The greater the diversity of species you eat, the more likely you are to cover all your nutritional bases. That of course is an argument from nutritionism, but there is a better one, one that takes a broader view of ”health.” Biodiversity in the diet means less monoculture in the fields.

What does that have to do with your health? Everything. The vast monocultures that now feed us require tremendous amounts of chemical fertilizers and pesticides to keep from collapsing. Diversifying those fields will mean fewer chemicals, healthier soils, healthier plants and animals and, in turn, healthier people. It’s all connected, which is another way of saying that your health isn’t bordered by your body and that what’s good for the soil is probably good for you, too.






kalikshama -> RE: Restaurants and dieting (2/13/2012 4:55:35 PM)

quote:

But my general philosophy is why eat something at a restaurant that I could just as easily prepare at home? That is why I don't eat at chain restaurants; their processed, frozen crap food is the equivalent of a TV dinner. Why go to a salad bar? I can buy one of those salad packages at the grocery store, throw some chicken on it, and have the same thing, better and cheaper. When I do eat out, I want something I probably wouldn't make at home.


My eating out philosophy too :)




Winterapple -> RE: Restaurants and dieting (2/13/2012 5:12:57 PM)

FR
A vegan diet nearly killed me.
A diet full of all those healthy whole grains
nearly sank me. I'd rather not eat meat
for ethical reasons but whenever I've removed
animal protein from my diet I've suffered for it.
I realize this is not the case for everyone.
Vegans, vegetarians, raw foodies, no fat whole
grain pushers sometimes make some outrageous
claims. Claims that are just as extreme as they
see high protein low carb claims as being.
Humans are omnivores and survived on a
largely meat/protein diet for a very longtime.
If animal protein has become lethal for humans
then it is more likely to be based on something
like what the animals themselves are eating than
anything else. A completely plant based diet seems
to work for some people, not so much .




Winterapple -> RE: Restaurants and dieting (2/13/2012 5:14:43 PM)

Meant to say:
A completely plant based diet seems to work
for some people, for others not so much.




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