RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (Full Version)

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xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/19/2012 9:49:16 AM)

The point is, of all the people having sex right now, only a relatively small minority are doing in order to deliberately reproduce, most are doing for a wide variety of other reasons, for some it's D/S, consensual or no, but the vast majority probably for the most compelling reason of all - it feels good - and that's the most successful strategy that nature has come up with, even if it only results in reproduction a relatively small percentage of the time - i.e., I think a survey of Baptists who believe in sex for reproduction only, they were still having sex on the order of something like 200 times on average before attaining that goal.




SoftBonds -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/19/2012 9:53:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
even if it only results in reproduction a relatively small percentage of the time - i.e., I think a survey of Baptists who believe in sex for reproduction only, they were still having sex on the order of something like 200 times on average before attaining that goal.


Unless the Baptist's last name is Duggar...




xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/19/2012 9:59:14 AM)

They must have very good timing. [:D]




Edwynn -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/19/2012 10:29:40 AM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

When the universities quit cheering for Alexander the Great, quit cheering for Rome, quit cheering for Charlemagne, quit cheering for other-like mass slaughter, quit cheering for British empire, and when the twits over here (and elsewhere) quit cheering for every stupid invasion that still transpires, and when we have gone beyond the best selling video games played by both boys and girls being all seriously focused on war and battle and nihilism  ...  

Then I might worry about who is cheering about a rape scene in a disposable movie or not.

Pardon my lack of focus or sense of urgency on that particular item.




I don't get your point, Edwynn. Are you saying that we shouldn't be considering this matter on this thread because there are much more important ones that we should be discussing?

ETA The Accused got five stars - 95% - from Rotten Tomatoes. Not really a 'disposable' film in the critics' estimation.



No you didn't get my point. I made the posts in consideration of the discussion, far from prescribing what others should discuss or not. I was in fact trying to point to some element of not seeing the forest for the trees at various points in the thread, nothing more than that.






xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/19/2012 11:57:39 AM)

quote:

Rape may not be a good thing (fully agreed here, we presume ourselves to be civilized, after all) , and occurs less in nature, the cross definition of such not always being entirely applicable. But let's address the issue of queens (and princesses and 'commoner' women) being attracted to the warrior king that killed more men than others and won the crown, moreso than the farmer, before we get all into this modern notion of how boys are raised differently than girls and are even more induced to violence. If we propose that males are more induced to violence, that could be no less than acknowledging that females are more attracted to it. Attraction to the product of violence and spoils of war play a part here, lest it might have escaped notice. Cleopatra knew the game.
True enough, and it's often the elephant in the room when it comes to masculine violence and who in fact, encourages it: women - and of course this is a generalization - like "strong" men, and if that isn't always 100% applicable, at the very least anytime the subject of "real" men, dominants, etc., comes up, you can invariably count on at least one woman stating her preference for "strength" in no uncertain terms, to the point of basically calling into question the very masculinity of any man who doesn't live up to her particular standard - the "nice guy" lovers and likers are never so quick on the draw, nor quite so emphatic about their preferences, it usually more like, "I like nice guys too".

Anyway, so yeah, what you might say is that a lot of males are confused about just how "strong" they should be, or what it means, and here there is a small area of consensus (they should take out the garbage) and a lot of conflicting social theory and praxis.

But I should also add, that in constructing this generalization, my experience at managing bars has taught me that the first rule of managing a bar is avoid fights at all costs, get 'em out the damn door and into the parking lot as fast as possible because chicks don't like fights - it's better not to have bouncers than bouncers who start fights, because if a bar gets a reputation as a fight bar, it's gonna end up a sausage fest.

Chicks like dancing, and if the chicks show up the guys will show up, period. Dancing is a much more entertaining form of competition for all involved, because you don't even have to compete if you don't want to, you can just dance.

When it comes to making generalizations about what customers want, I seldom venture there, in fact when I hear anybody say, "people like this", or "people like that", I take it with a huge grain of salt - you want to know what "people like": ask them - but this I have found to be so far both universal and consistent.

What this has to do with rape in the military anymore, I'm not really sure, but all the really good scenes I got into in the military, group or otherwise, invariably involved dancing at some point. [:D]

And, by contrast, dancing was conspicuously not a feature of any of the ones that went South.

A correlation? Possibly - dancing allows one to display a degree of physical prowess that otherwise has to find some other outlet.




tweakabelle -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/19/2012 8:43:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

xxsve if you are going to insist on posting the offensive and ridiculous claim that rape is a "successful reproductive strategy", you might explain how male-on-male rape or male-on-child (of any gender) rape can be seen as "successful reproductive strategies"?

If you are unable to explain this apparent conundrum, could you please consign your absurd guess/opinion to the nearest trash can permanently. You will be doing yourself and the world a favour by doing so.
Confusion.

[sm=alien.gif]
Yeppers. Someone is surely confused.




hlen5 -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/19/2012 8:50:05 PM)

I only saw this thread after it had grown to 8 pages. For me, it's a WTF moment too.

I think I'll skip the bulk of the posts, feeling that it would most likely enrage me.




hlen5 -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/19/2012 9:06:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBigDog

This is just more lies being told by misandrists who also naturally hate our soldiers. Their trying to make soldiers out to be rapists but that woman on Fox is right. You put men in situations like that and then you put these women who are really pawns of feminists and you say to them "You'll be a pioneer and a hero if you just go out and do this." Well what do they expect to happen? What benefit was their ever to putting women in the military in the first place? None. It's no surprise that this is all happening under the watch of the black Muslim who wants to destroy the military anyway. It's time someone did something about this.


F.U.C.K. Y.O.U.r mysogynist, racist opinion. - A WOMAN veteran.




xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 6:19:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

xxsve if you are going to insist on posting the offensive and ridiculous claim that rape is a "successful reproductive strategy", you might explain how male-on-male rape or male-on-child (of any gender) rape can be seen as "successful reproductive strategies"?

If you are unable to explain this apparent conundrum, could you please consign your absurd guess/opinion to the nearest trash can permanently. You will be doing yourself and the world a favour by doing so.
Confusion.


Yeppers. Someone is surely confused.
I don't think getting emotional about it is going to help anybody understand the problem or what to do about it, refusal to even admit to the probability is not very scientific. It was never more than a side note, but you want to keep making it the main theme, get over it.




xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 6:21:41 AM)

It's not as bad as all that.




tweakabelle -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 6:44:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

It's not as bad as all that.

Wrong. As usual.

It is as bad as that.




xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 7:36:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

It's not as bad as all that.

Wrong. As usual.

It is as bad as that.
It is now that you're back on your hobby horse.




xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 7:37:25 AM)

And if I'm wrong, prove it.




xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 8:02:13 AM)

Or drop it.




SoftBonds -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 8:06:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

And if I'm wrong, prove it.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBigDog

This is just more lies being told by misandrists who also naturally hate our soldiers. Their trying to make soldiers out to be rapists but that woman on Fox is right. You put men in situations like that and then you put these women who are really pawns of feminists and you say to them "You'll be a pioneer and a hero if you just go out and do this." Well what do they expect to happen? What benefit was their ever to putting women in the military in the first place? None. It's no surprise that this is all happening under the watch of the black Muslim who wants to destroy the military anyway. It's time someone did something about this.


I would say this is proof that it is as bad as all that...
Even before looking at the fact that the Fox News woman said that women in the military should expect to be raped...




tazzygirl -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 8:57:41 AM)

quote:

I don't think getting emotional about it is going to help anybody understand the problem or what to do about it, refusal to even admit to the probability is not very scientific. It was never more than a side note, but you want to keep making it the main theme, get over it.


You do not state what field of science you are in, nor what field your degree is in. You expect people to simply take your word that what you present is fact, then get pissy when people call you on your misogyny rhetoric.

What you state as fact on this thread implies that man has come no further along in his evolution than the cave man, while woman have scaled the loftier and placed herself far above him intellectually and emotionally.

Now, you want someone to prove you wrong about your rape is a successful reproductive strategy... where is this study? I am so willing to take on the task.




xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 9:28:47 AM)

I'm not getting pissy, that's you, if a given act of sexual intercourse results in pregnancy, consensual or no, it constitutes a reproductive strategy, it's not misogyny to note this, I'm neither suggesting it or promoting it, it's just a fact of biology, fucking google it - has nothing to do with my feelings on the subject, and as far as I know I'm the only one in this thread who has offered any practical suggestions to prevent it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

This is why men should not decide women's issues. Sorry fellas. But honestly, butch, are you always this stubborn, or are you truly not getting the grasp of it yet.

Lets assume you are not.

Not every woman can be on birth control.
Not every woman can have implants.
Not every woman gets pregnant as a result of lack of birth control.
Not every woman wants to get pregnant.
Not every woman gets pregnant by choice.
Not every woman has a say in getting pregnant.
Not every woman has a pregnancy that is the end result of consensual sex.


I have a better idea. Sperm banks. Men should donate then get sterilized. No more accidental pregnancy and the only children born are those who are wanted by those who can afford them.
I can much more easily read misandry into this than you can read misogyny into a simple statement of empirical fact.

As a matter of fact, as I stated that last time this came up, I've never raped anybody, never even occurred to me to try, and I've had plenty of women at a disadvantage. I have more than lived up to my parental responsibilities, I'm currently raising Two children by myself, the result of consensual sex, to the detriment of my own sex life.

As I say I've yet to hear any practical suggestions about rape prevention from either you or tweak, just ivory tower preaching that amounts to navel gazing in the real world - you can blather about it till doomsday, it ain't gonna make one shit of difference.

So, prove me wrong, or drop it so we can move on, this is just ankle biting ad hominem, I know goddamn well you don't have any credentials here, or you wouldn't be resorting to name calling.

To reiterate, rape is a reproductive strategy, among other things, it might not even be at the top of the list, and in order to confirm that it has a genetic component, an active allele, you'd need data on how many rape victims are raped during the peak of their fertile phase - that data does not exist, so it's just a theory, but there is more than enough case history to establish as a conscious motive with at least some statistical frequency - much higher if you include quasi-consent like arranged marriages, etc., where the woman has little choice in the matter, as in these cases, reproduction is very much the explicit goal.

If you want to study a problem, you have to look at it from all the angles, this is one of those angles, whether it's politically palatable or expedient to you or not.




tazzygirl -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 9:30:06 AM)

I asked you for a link to this study.

Yeah, I didnt think you would give it up.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn907-insult-to-injury.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0%2C9171%2C38013%2C00.html

Dr. Jerry Coyne, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Chicago who has read the excerpt in the journal The Sciences, called it ''the worst efflorescence of evolutionary psychology that I've ever seen.''

''It's irresponsible, it's tendentious, it's an advocacy article and the science is sloppy,'' he said. ''There are some aspects of human behavior that are fairly clearly evolutionary. But that's a long way from saying that rape is adaptive in males.''


http://www.nytimes.com/2000/01/15/books/what-provokes-a-rapist-to-rape-scientists-debate-notion-of-an-evolutionary-drive.html

http://www.kenanmalik.com/reviews/thornhill&palmer.html

I would say many see this study as flawed, at best, and wrong.






tweakabelle -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 9:54:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

And if I'm wrong, prove it.

Your claim is that "rape is a successful reproduction strategy".


The act of rape is primarily an act of power and violence, not a sexual act. Rape involves a series of violations of the victim which can include:
*kidnapping or unlawful imprisonment; because the rapist has to detain the victim in a situation where escape is difficult;
*Physical assault; which can be vicious and happen regardless of the degree of 'co-operation' by the victim;
*Murder or the threat thereof;
*Permanent disfigurement
*Robbery;
*Threatening with violence or a deadly weapon;
*Perverting the course of justice;
*Destruction of property;
*Sexual assault
*Conspiracy; where more than one rapist is acting in concert, add conspiracy to do all the above crimes to the list of violations.
The sexual assault component of rape does not necessarily involve any reproductive potential. The victim can be male, or a child or a woman past child bearing age, none of whom offer any reproductive potential.
The sexual assault component of rape does not necessarily involve penile penetration of the victim's vagina. Any orifice can suffice ...oral rape and anal rape are common. Ejaculation outside the body is not unheard of. Sometimes the rapist doesn't ejaculate.
Often the rape is digital or with an object - again zero reproductive potential.
To associate rape with reproductive potential implies a focus on penile penetration of a vagina which is simply not present in many rapes.
To associate rape with sex primarily is wrong, because as shown above, the sexual aspect is one of a series of violations and crimes that may occur.

The factors that are present in all rapes are the rapist's exercise of power over the victim, and of violence, expressed with a sexual component. Rape cannot happen without one (or more) individual(s) exercising power violently over the victim. There is no necessity for the victim to have any reproductive potential for a rape to occur. Many rapes can and do occur without any reproductive potential whatsoever. There is a necessity for the rapist to exercise power and violence for rape to occur.

To associate rape primarily with sex, or even penile-vaginal sex is inaccurate, as is shown above. The sexual component may be only one of many criminal components, or personal violations in a rape. Many rapists freely concede that the power and terror they exercise over their victims is their major gratification.

Adding all the above together, to assert that rape is a reproductive strategy verges on the cretinous. To insist on that assertion in the face of the evidence is not only cretinous but deeply offensive. Most studies find approx 1 women in 3 suffers sexual assault in her lifetime. Every time you make your nonsensical claim, you are twisting the knife in those women's scars and pain. Please please stop it.




xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 9:57:35 AM)

What study? Google up Genghis Khan, there is simply no way to argue that rape was not an explicit reproductive strategy here.

There are no studies that prove it, as I said, it's a hypothesis, i.e., that it has a unconscious, genetic component, it's existence as a conscious strategy is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by the above example.

Simply possessing an allele does not mean it's activated, I described all this in the other thread, it can be seen as a form of sexual psychopathy, given that the most statistically successful strategy is simply your basic courtship and monogamy, by orders of magnitude.

Psychopathy itself appears to be a form of stationary phase mutation, triggered by specific stressors, see non-coding DNA. i.e., a psychopath can be made, although it does appear to be heritable for a certain number of generations, see Restak, The Brain.

In other words, the alleles that trigger a psychopathic adaptation exist in everyone, they are are not activated unless specific stressors are present at specific points in social development.

If a certain percentage of rapists are exhibiting a particular form of sexual psychopathy, then there may be a way to treat or circumvent it, something as simple as a pheromone spray that could be used during the fertile phase, just a thought.

The geographic, situational, and periodic statistical variability of rape argues that it is not entirely the result of genetics, so I would hesitate to suggest it might be a panacea, but it is an avenue worth exploring.






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