RE: Petition: mandatory labeling of genetically engineered foods (Full Version)

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DomKen -> RE: Petition: mandatory labeling of genetically engineered foods (2/16/2012 10:21:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

All of your food is genetically engineered via a technique we're used to calling "selective breeding." Get over it.


Do you truly consider splicing in genes from another species to be the same as the experiments on plant hybridization performed by Mendel?

Mendel didn't do plant hybridization. However plant hybridization is exactly splicing the genes of multiple species into one new species.

Most domestic wheat are hybrids (tetraploid or hexaploid). Triticale is a hybrid of wheat and rye created by exposing the fertilized seeds to mutagenic chemicals (colchicine in this case).




kalikshama -> RE: Petition: mandatory labeling of genetically engineered foods (2/16/2012 10:24:58 AM)

Experiments on plant hybridization

Gregor Mendel, who is known as the "father of modern genetics", was inspired by both his professors at the University of Olomouc (i.e. Friedrich Franz & Johann Karl Nestler) and his colleagues at the monastery (e.g., Franz Diebl) to study variation in plants, and he conducted his study in the monastery's two hectare[8] experimental garden, which was originally planted by Napp in 1830.[6] Between 1856 and 1863 Mendel cultivated and tested some 29,000 pea plants (i.e., Pisum sativum). This study showed that one in four pea plants had purebred recessive alleles, two out of four were hybrid and one out of four were purebred dominant. His experiments led him to make two generalizations, the Law of Segregation and the Law of Independent Assortment, which later became known as Mendel's Laws of Inheritance.

Mendel did read his paper, Versuche über Pflanzenhybriden (Experiments on Plant Hybridization), at two meetings of the Natural History Society of Brünn in Moravia in 1865. It was received favorably and generated reports in several local newspapers.[9] When Mendel's paper was published in 1866 in Verhandlungen des naturforschenden Vereins Brünn,[10] it was seen as essentially about hybridization rather than inheritance and had little impact and was cited about three times over the next thirty-five years. (Notably, Charles Darwin was unaware of Mendel's paper, according to Jacob Bronowski's The Ascent of Man.) His paper was criticized at the time, but is now considered a seminal work.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Petition: mandatory labeling of genetically engineered foods (2/16/2012 10:55:29 AM)

Not to mention:

What is GM food and what is the difference between genetically modified food and hybridization?

Genetic engineering is the process of breaking the natural boundaries that exist between species to produce new life forms that will produce a variety of desired traits. For example, genes from salmon can be spliced into tomatoes to make them more resistant to cold weather, thereby yielding a larger crop when the weather is less than favorable. Hybridization is the fertilization of the flower of one species by the pollen of another species-or artificial cross pollination.




mnottertail -> RE: Petition: mandatory labeling of genetically engineered foods (2/16/2012 11:14:00 AM)

And one is done over generations and generations, and the ones that dont work or are deficient are weeded out in the main, however:

Golden Labs have a prolific propensity towards cancer (and some other breeds)
Pugs with asthma and diabetes....and so on....

all that due to inbreeding and  the problems of non-total specificity of genes.

On the other hand, what do you get when you cross a tomato with a salmon today, and start feeding it to the populous tomorrow without long term trials and evidence?

Yeah, I don't know either, but it sure is hard to get parts for, and we already know our available antibiotics are failing us in myriad ways currently, and I think it will take some time to develop an antibiotic that will cure mosaic virus based mad cow disease.

Now, you can color me Caspar Milquetoast if you want, but I ain't eatin the shit, or at least not until the gangrenous hamburger runs out....cuz I got cures for that.

They got shit they are feeding you that is 'low-fat' that causes your ass to leak shit........oh, like boys don't have enough skidmarks in their drawers now.................



 




DomKen -> RE: Petition: mandatory labeling of genetically engineered foods (2/16/2012 12:32:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Experiments on plant hybridization

Gregor Mendel, who is known as the "father of modern genetics", was inspired by both his professors at the University of Olomouc (i.e. Friedrich Franz & Johann Karl Nestler) and his colleagues at the monastery (e.g., Franz Diebl) to study variation in plants, and he conducted his study in the monastery's two hectare[8] experimental garden, which was originally planted by Napp in 1830.[6] Between 1856 and 1863 Mendel cultivated and tested some 29,000 pea plants (i.e., Pisum sativum). This study showed that one in four pea plants had purebred recessive alleles, two out of four were hybrid and one out of four were purebred dominant. His experiments led him to make two generalizations, the Law of Segregation and the Law of Independent Assortment, which later became known as Mendel's Laws of Inheritance.

Mendel did read his paper, Versuche über Pflanzenhybriden (Experiments on Plant Hybridization), at two meetings of the Natural History Society of Brünn in Moravia in 1865. It was received favorably and generated reports in several local newspapers.[9] When Mendel's paper was published in 1866 in Verhandlungen des naturforschenden Vereins Brünn,[10] it was seen as essentially about hybridization rather than inheritance and had little impact and was cited about three times over the next thirty-five years. (Notably, Charles Darwin was unaware of Mendel's paper, according to Jacob Bronowski's The Ascent of Man.) His paper was criticized at the time, but is now considered a seminal work.

Mendel may have called what he did hybridization but it wasn't. He worked with a single species of pea and simply established how inheritance works. Hybridization is when seperate species, in plants often widely divergent ones, are cross bred.

As to the claim that genetic engineering is soemhow different than older techniques, all that can be said is that is more precise. If we want to introduce a specific protein into a crop that's all we splice in. We don't need to spend years or decades crossing plants looking to establish a population with that characteristic.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Petition: mandatory labeling of genetically engineered foods (2/16/2012 12:48:54 PM)

Ken, your use of the word "we" makes me think you have some stake in the issue. Like maybe you work in the field?
In any case, none of this explains the industries' virulent opposition to labeling. If GMO products are so safe and are just an enhancement of historic techniques, why the fear of transparency? It should be relatively easy to convince the public about the safety of these products. In fact, why not use this as a marketing technique? Instead, monsanto seems to spend a lot of mOney fighting labeling. Can you blame people for being suspicious?




DomKen -> RE: Petition: mandatory labeling of genetically engineered foods (2/16/2012 2:57:01 PM)

I do not work in biotech.

The reason companies, not just the boogeyman Monsanto, oppose labeling GMO products is because people have built a cottage industry scaring people about them.

I get involved in these discussions because I get frustrated with the scientific illiteracy of those spreading these scare stories.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Petition: mandatory labeling of genetically engineered foods (2/16/2012 3:55:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
As to the claim that genetic engineering is soemhow different than older techniques, all that can be said is that is more precise. If we want to introduce a specific protein into a crop that's all we splice in. We don't need to spend years or decades crossing plants looking to establish a population with that characteristic.


But if genetics allows us to isolate a characteristic in a particular plant, then why can't we cross that plant with the other - why do we need to splice the specific protein in at all? It seems to me if crossing the plants with each doesn't work naturally, there might be a genetic reason for it. If the only way to cross the plants is to splice something in and not just cross the plants, something about this strikes me as quite wrong. I don't think anyone understands the long term genetic implications to the splicing - and what impact it will have on humans. If the genetics could be isolated and plants crossed in the old fashioned way, I would have no objection. But that is not what is going on - at all. Splicing genetics in is something entirely different from crossbreeding plants (i.e., some old fashioned cross breeding will not take - and I am suggesting that there may be sound reasons for that that we should not be tampering with).




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Petition: mandatory labeling of genetically engineered foods (2/16/2012 3:56:38 PM)

Whether or not people have built a "cottage industry" out of scaring people has nothing to do with it.  I see no basis for Monsanto to be allowed to decide what information can be provided and what people don't deserve to know.  This petition has nothing to do with banning GMO products, it is a request for labeling.  Those who elect to do so can continue to use those products, and as for the rest, Monsanto undoubtedly can educate them as to their "scientific illiteracy".  Monsanto's desire to avoid truthfully labeling these products DOES NOT override my fundamental right to determine what I think fit it ingest.  That is the purpose of food labeling in the first place.  But really, Monsanto's paranoia on this issue is enough to rouse anyone's suspicions, justified or not.




mnottertail -> RE: Petition: mandatory labeling of genetically engineered foods (2/16/2012 4:04:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I do not work in biotech.

The reason companies, not just the boogeyman Monsanto, oppose labeling GMO products is because people have built a cottage industry scaring people about them.

I get involved in these discussions because I get frustrated with the scientific illiteracy of those spreading these scare stories.


Well, gee Mr Wizard, I gotta take a moment here, when you cross a tomato with a salmon, what sort of disease path are you creating?

Hell, in the normal world we gotta worry about some asian guy coming here and he has ducks and pigs and cows all corraled up in the barn next to the kitchen and he gets avian swine flu, then he doesn't wipe himself properly and comes to our country and starts a big epidemic.

Or fuckin frogs in mexico lickin tomatos and giving the running shits to half our country....

I gotta look at this with a jaundiced eye, unless you have some long term (and I got a good 30 years of life left in me, and whether or not I suffer ED, and it becomes useless, I dont want the goddamn thing to fall off........)

What is say a midrange 50 year outcome on this?  Show me the science, the data, the studies..........

It aint scare tactics.  Its for real. 




Edwynn -> RE: Petition: mandatory labeling of genetically engineered foods (2/16/2012 4:44:08 PM)



Certainly. My one year of geology taught me that a planet can do amazing and all kinds of wacky things, but most of the more extraordinary things occur over a vast swath of time. Humans could extract water from a dry rock, as nature can. It would cost humans large sums of money and energy to do that, but nature goes the cheap route and uses millions of years rather than billions of dollars.

It's not completely out of the question that nature might someday find some evolutionary purpose or another in having a fish gene find its way into a tomato, but even were that to happen the millions of years of that process would include a large amount of 'beta testing' by way of many bacteria and possibly higher life forms coming into and going out of existence and other species of flora and fauna recovered from whatever collateral damage, etc. on the way to finding an equilibrium where all were happy and nobody got sick anymore. Not everything that might go wrong in nature will have immediate effect or show up in health statistics or environmental statistics within a year or two.


PS

When was the last time that a government or a corporation claiming "but people wouldn't understand" as excuse for withholding information ever turned out well? Anyone remember?










mnottertail -> RE: Petition: mandatory labeling of genetically engineered foods (2/16/2012 4:47:49 PM)

QED.  And I am just worried about my miserable little swatch of time on this planet.

I got enough problems healthwise (nothing serious folks just some aches and pains and whatnot) just breathing for 58 years. I will slice some tomato and put on my salmon.....but I aint gonna have em essentially fuckin  while I swaller em.   It ain't kosher.




thishereboi -> RE: Petition: mandatory labeling of genetically engineered foods (2/16/2012 5:45:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBigDog

Yeah more government regulation is what we need in our lives. I get so sick of do-gooders trying to tell us what we can put in our own damned bodies when they should really be straightening there own lives out. Who is with me?



I don't think they should be telling me what to eat either. But this isn't about that. It's about making them tell us what is in the food, so we can make an informed decision when we decide what food to buy.




DomKen -> RE: Petition: mandatory labeling of genetically engineered foods (2/16/2012 5:55:55 PM)

Ok, I'll try and explain this simply.

The famous fish tomato, which failed to grow well or something it was never patented or sold commercially, was a tomato with a single gene from the winter flounder, also known as lemon sole. This protein interferes with ice crystal formation.

It is a protein we can safely digest, see lemon sole. So when it is in our digestive tract it is broken down into its constituent amino acids which are identical to the amino acids from other sources including the ones our bodies make naturally.




SerendipityWM -> RE: Petition: mandatory labeling of genetically engineered foods (2/16/2012 6:00:41 PM)

I don't think there's anything wrong with genetically modified food at all, in fact I'd prefer to eat GM food (ideally) because it's often cheaper and better in the environmental sense. But I agree with you in the sense that you should be informed, obviously not everyone shares my opinion and they have a right to make a decision rather than being kept ignorant.




kalikshama -> RE: Petition: mandatory labeling of genetically engineered foods (2/16/2012 6:06:05 PM)

[image]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6h5CBCcXsMA/TgSXaD7P7BI/AAAAAAAAJnY/HQlfOig4fqY/s1600/monsanto2.jpg[/image]




kalikshama -> RE: Petition: mandatory labeling of genetically engineered foods (2/16/2012 6:11:06 PM)

Unhappy Meals
By MICHAEL POLLAN

...BAD SCIENCE

But if nutritionism leads to a kind of false consciousness in the mind of the eater, the ideology can just as easily mislead the scientist. Most nutritional science involves studying one nutrient at a time, an approach that even nutritionists who do it will tell you is deeply flawed. “The problem with nutrient-by-nutrient nutrition science,” points out Marion Nestle, the New York University nutritionist, “is that it takes the nutrient out of the context of food, the food out of the context of diet and the diet out of the context of lifestyle.”

If nutritional scientists know this, why do they do it anyway? Because a nutrient bias is built into the way science is done: scientists need individual variables they can isolate. Yet even the simplest food is a hopelessly complex thing to study, a virtual wilderness of chemical compounds, many of which exist in complex and dynamic relation to one another, and all of which together are in the process of changing from one state to another. So if you’re a nutritional scientist, you do the only thing you can do, given the tools at your disposal: break the thing down into its component parts and study those one by one, even if that means ignoring complex interactions and contexts, as well as the fact that the whole may be more than, or just different from, the sum of its parts. This is what we mean by reductionist science.

Scientific reductionism is an undeniably powerful tool, but it can mislead us too, especially when applied to something as complex as, on the one side, a food, and on the other, a human eater. It encourages us to take a mechanistic view of that transaction: put in this nutrient; get out that physiological result. Yet people differ in important ways. Some populations can metabolize sugars better than others; depending on your evolutionary heritage, you may or may not be able to digest the lactose in milk. The specific ecology of your intestines helps determine how efficiently you digest what you eat, so that the same input of 100 calories may yield more or less energy depending on the proportion of Firmicutes and Bacteroidetes living in your gut. There is nothing very machinelike about the human eater, and so to think of food as simply fuel is wrong.

Also, people don’t eat nutrients, they eat foods, and foods can behave very differently than the nutrients they contain. Researchers have long believed, based on epidemiological comparisons of different populations, that a diet high in fruits and vegetables confers some protection against cancer. So naturally they ask, What nutrients in those plant foods are responsible for that effect? One hypothesis is that the antioxidants in fresh produce — compounds like beta carotene, lycopene, vitamin E, etc. — are the X factor. It makes good sense: these molecules (which plants produce to protect themselves from the highly reactive oxygen atoms produced in photosynthesis) vanquish the free radicals in our bodies, which can damage DNA and initiate cancers. At least that’s how it seems to work in the test tube. Yet as soon as you remove these useful molecules from the context of the whole foods they’re found in, as we’ve done in creating antioxidant supplements, they don’t work at all. Indeed, in the case of beta carotene ingested as a supplement, scientists have discovered that it actually increases the risk of certain cancers. Big oops.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t.html?pagewanted=print




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Petition: mandatory labeling of genetically engineered foods (2/16/2012 7:41:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Tell the FDA that we have a right to know what's in our food.

By Eric Schlosser and Gary Hirshberg

To be delivered to: U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)

Commissioner Hamburg, we urge the FDA to require the mandatory labeling of genetically engineered foods. We have a right to know about the food we eat and what we feed our families, but under current FDA regulations, we don’t have that ability when it comes to genetically engineered foods.

Polls show that more than 90% of Americans support mandatory labeling. Such near-unanimity in public opinion is rare. Please listen to the American public and mandate labeling of genetically engineered foods.

The FDA is on the brink of approving genetically engineered salmon for human consumption. This would be the first genetically engineered animal on supermarket shelves in the United States. The salmon is engineered to produce growth hormones year-round that cause the fish to grow at twice the normal rate. The government already requires labels to tell us if fish is wild-caught or farm-raised – don't we also have a right to know if our salmon is genetically engineered? Without labels, we'll never know.

More than forty countries, including Russia and China, already require labels on genetically engineered foods. As Americans, we firmly believe that we deserve the same right to know what we are eating.

That's why we hope you'll join us and over half a million other Americans in telling the FDA to require labels on genetically engineered foods.

Eric Schlosser is the author of Fast Food Nation and a producer of the documentary Food, Inc. Gary Hirshberg is the Chairman of Stonyfield Farm and an advocate for sustainable food.

By signing this petition, you will be submitting a comment to the FDA.

http://signon.org/sign/tell-the-fda-that-we



Sign up for the "Get a Clue" button.

Hon....there ain't no such thing as "food", there's ONLY genetically modified food.

You know that tree in the back yard that has 3 different kinds of pears on it?

G.M.F.

ANY corn since they discovered corn?

G.M.F.

Damn near anything you've bought in the last 7 years?

G.M.F.

A BETTER (more logical) request would be to have them identify what was NOT G.M.F.....so you could actually (knowledgeably) choose....real food.

Even if you plant it....it's (more than probably) G.M.F.

There is another alternative....here's one (there are others):

http://www.ehow.com/how_4701355_non-genetically-modified-seeds.html









Edwynn -> RE: Petition: mandatory labeling of genetically engineered foods (2/16/2012 7:50:41 PM)


The farmer's markets that kali has made mention of, oh, about 20 times already in this thread would indicate for others familiar with that venture that she is in touch with local growers, both organic and conventional, and from conversations with them has gained knowledge of what is and isn't GMF and, at least if hers are like my growers, has heard a good bit about the seeds situation as exists now.

But thanks for the tip.







Iamsemisweet -> RE: Petition: mandatory labeling of genetically engineered foods (2/16/2012 11:41:49 PM)

Oh for christ's sake. How many times do we have to cover this same ground.
Look sweetie, if you are going to start a post with some insulting remark, like "sign up for the get a clue button", you might want to check your facts first. Otherwise, you just like an idiot.
Starting with your first statement. The pear tree in your back yard with three varieties? Sorry, it has not been genetically modified. It was grafted. Has nothing to do with genes, in even the loosest sense. Your other two statements are BS too, but the one about the tree was my favorite.
Gee, I am thinking you must have grown up on a farm, or something. NOT.
quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie



Sign up for the "Get a Clue" button.

Hon....there ain't no such thing as "food", there's ONLY genetically modified food.

You know that tree in the back yard that has 3 different kinds of pears on it?

G.M.F.

ANY corn since they discovered corn?

G.M.F.

Damn near anything you've bought in the last 7 years?

G.M.F.

A BETTER (more logical) request would be to have them identify what was NOT G.M.F.....so you could actually (knowledgeably) choose....real food.

Even if you plant it....it's (more than probably) G.M.F.

There is another alternative....here's one (there are others):

http://www.ehow.com/how_4701355_non-genetically-modified-seeds.html










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