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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 6:02:08 AM

ProlificNeeds

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Domestic violence comes from a lack of love and respect or anger management, not from anything related to fetish frustration. One could argue learning martial arts, or meditation would be equally constructive to reducing instances of domestic violence and increasing ones self-control.

As Greedy pointed out, one does not stay in a truely abusive relationship because they 'like' it... that would be a sickening way to view it and seems too much like victim-blaming for my tastes. They stay because they are afraid of the alternatives. The abuser makes the option of leaving seem worse than the choice of staying, and this is how they twist and blackmail people into remaining in abusive situations. They make the victim afraid to be alone, afraid to leave, afraid to be without the person they have become familiar with.

BDSM is like chocolate syrup, it makes great ice cream even better, but shit is still shit even when topped with chocolate.

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Post #: 21

RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 6:25:47 AM

xssve

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Yeah, the topic has been introduced before, and it's no panacea - like anything else, the more people doing it, the more it resembles whatever people were doing already - it does, ideally, offer some significant distinctions as compared to other social modes, including courtship modes - the explicit negotiation of sexual preferences and limits is a biggie, i.e., a frank and open discussion of sexual matters which would be likely be considered gauche in vanilla circles.

"so, you like to suck cock or what"?

That's why you get so many couples horribly mismatched in libido and/or expectations: one of them ends up either cheating or addicted to internet porn. Putting your cards on the table up front can save you lot of grief in the stretch.

When it comes to abuse however, bullies tend to look for victims they calculate will allow them to get away with it, and that is unlikely to change when it comes to BDSM. Any ethic or praxis, for that matter, lot's of guy like that in religious groups as well, and religious institutions often marginalize and conceal abuse in the name of "family values", appearances, basically, and always have - at best, BDSM might facilitate matching bullies with victims, reducing the chances of an innocent bystander wandering into it by mistake.

< Message edited by xssve -- 2/16/2012 6:27:11 AM >

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 6:35:39 AM

fucktoyprincess

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Domestic violence, in my mind, should have nothing to do with a healthy functioning relationship, whether that relationship is vanilla or BDSM. So my answer would be that no, BDSM can neither "cure" domestic violence, nor should BDSM be used as a safe harbor for people who are abusive.

As someone who enjoys s&m, and having had several successful relationships that included s&m, I do not believe safe, sane, consensual practice of s&m as part of a relationship has anything to do with domestic violence. I also dispute the notion that s&m necessarily increases the probability of domestic violence within a relationship. Abuse is person based, not activity based. In other words, some people are abusers. And they will be abusers whether they are in a vanilla or a BDSM relationship. Those who are not abusers will not abuse whether they are in a vanilla or a BDSM relationship. And an interest in s&m tells us nothing about abuse potential. Plenty of vanilla people, who have no interest in s&m, will lash out violently and in anger at those who they love, and an interest in s&m does not equal thinking that non-consensual violence is okay.

As for why victims stay, this becomes very complicated and individual to the person and the relationship. There are dependency issues, fear issues, etc., so that I do not think it so easy to simply say "victim, just leave the relationship". Similarly, there are issues within the abuser that make it difficult to simply say "abuser stop abusing" and think that that will stop things. The dynamic of abusive relationships, whether vanilla or BDSM, tend to be much more complicated. Usually victims need support from others (friends, family, organizations) to even have the psychological strength to leave, although some are strong enough to leave on their own. Abusers also need support from others if they are ever going to grapple with the issues that make them abusers to begin with, and begin to heal from past pain, and develop the self-control to not be abusive. Regardless, I really strongly believe that BDSM should not be used to mask true abuse.

< Message edited by fucktoyprincess -- 2/16/2012 7:03:07 AM >

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 6:46:49 AM

Rochsub2009

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I think your premise is terribly flawed.

In most cases, BDSM'ers strive to make their activities safe, sane, and consentual.

Domestic abuse is the exact opposite. It's unsafe, insane, and nonconsentual.

Frankly, being a Dom/Domme/Master/Mistress is about being in control. First the Dom/Domme has to be in control of themselves, then they have to control their sub.

Abusers are basically out of control. They can't control their own anger, and that lack of control spills over onto their victims.

So in almost every way, domestic violence and consentual D/s are polar opposites. Or said differently, abusers would make terrible Doms/masters. Their subs/slaves would leave them after the first punch in the face, or the first time they were kicked down the stairs.

< Message edited by Rochsub2009 -- 2/16/2012 6:48:12 AM >

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Post #: 24

RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 7:41:26 AM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

Abusers are basically out of control. They can't control their own anger, and that lack of control spills over onto their victims.

Abusers also are insecure. It's the same thing that fuels bullying. Instilling fear in some one else gives them a feeling of power to take away the feeling of inadequacy.

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 8:02:09 AM

jennileigh8182

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FR-

This question actually makes me feel very, very concerned about anyone that could think this way.

A D/s relationship is based in trust. I allow my Dom to hurt me because I trust him that he will hurt me only in ways that i like and can tolerate. The last time we met, he got a little vigorous, i yelped 'ow,' and he instantly switched gears to something he knew i enjoyed. There wasn't even a moment of hesitation. He wants me to trust him and feel comfortable with him, and I wouldn't do either if he didn't pay attention to my needs. He doesn't want me to be afraid of him, he wants me to submit willingly. As others have said, a D/s relationship is concerned with both sides receiving something they need/desire from the interaction.

Abusers are pretty much opposite. They want their partner to be afraid of them. They don't want trust, they just want obedience. They don't care if their partner is willing. Abuse is a lack of control. Abuse is all about the abuser. They want ot lash out, they do, they expect their partner to take it. I lived in an emotionally abusive relationship for quite some time. Why didn't I leave? Because, quite simply, I didn't think I deserved anything better. I'd gotten involved with him after a disastrous D/s relationship, in which i'd been told that i wasn't cut out to be a sub, so my self-worth was already damaged. It took years, some deep conversations with a few dominant friends, and seeing him begin to turn his verbal abuse and selfishness on our infant son before it was enough to make me leave.

I think it's actually fairly easy for abusers to hide within BDSM because they can so often -look- like a dominant. They aren't, but they can fool others for awhile. It's the intent that makes the difference. An abuser will humiliate and degrade their partner because it makes them feel bigger and better. A dominant will do it because it's stimulating to both parties, but the sub partner knows it's done with affection rather than malice.

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Post #: 26

RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 8:13:06 AM

sexyred1

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I understand what the OP is trying to say, but as everyone else has said, it will never "cure" abuse.

It only allows an inherently abusive person to continue that abuse under the guise of BDSM and further rationalize their behavior by saying, "but you like it, right".

My ex has tremendous anger management issues, and I was his first BDSM relationship. I would venture to say that if he never met me, he might have never have actually hit another woman, but his anger would be even further out of control.

With me, he started off fine, but ended up incorporating anger into our BDSM activities, against my wishes, but has never once owned up to this. He continues to this day, to rationalize his abusive behavior with comments like, "but you stayed with me all these years" or "come on, you got off on it" or a myriad other comments that serve only to justify his selfish lack of empathy and respect for what I wanted.

I have often told him that he is abusive and should seek anger management help, and to never engage in BDSM with any one else until this gets resolved, which I doubt it would ever be.

He has also (scarily) admitted that meeting me gave him a "stress relief outlet" that he can never find with anyone and now that I have stopped seeing him, he is freaking out because he does not know how to channel his issues, now that BDSM activities are lost to him. Sadly, he will NEVER believe that I started to be scared of him and that I went from loving him and what we did, to being horrified by some of the things he did.

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 8:44:50 AM

GreedyTop

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*hugs the SexyRedilicious one*

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 8:50:08 AM

LadyHibiscus

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Really?

I can't do more than agree with everyone else, that there is a world of difference between consensual bdsm and abuse.

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 8:51:30 AM

Lockit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DommesLesEnigma

Hi,

snip...

Domestic Violence between husband and wife or boyfriend and girlfriend is not good for a family. I have seen the damage it can cause. If asked my opinion on it, I will come hard and say. "If they are stupid enough to stay in a relationship with an abuser than they deserve it." You know not to interfere in those types of relationships because they will get mad at you. But when it get out of hand and they can't handle it they run to family and law enforcement. Than the next thing you know they are right back with the abuser. Now I am not saying this is how it happens all the time. But it do happen a lot. Sometimes the victim wise up and leave the abuser and that is a good thing.

snip...

I hope I explained my point right because I would like to know what others think. Because I do have friends in the Vanilla world that struggle so hard in relationships. Yet in my world I don't seem to have the same problems with relationships.

Dommes Les Enigma

I sniped all but the areas of your post, I wanted to comment on.

You may have seen the damage that domestic abuse can cause, but your following statements clearly show that you have no real understanding about domestic abuse and therefore it is doubtful you can come up with a cure. I spent years researching, working in and dealing directly with domestic abuse. I read your comments and think you need a bit of education, but to do that you would have to do a great deal of research or I could break it down for you, which I am not going to do. If you wish to cure what ails those around you... be quiet, stop with the insulting and harsh comments and learn something about the topic so that you don't seem ignorant. Then people may listen and take some advice that comes from you and a more knowledgeable base.

Why don't they just leave? Because when a victim leaves, it is the most dangerous time. Do you watch the news?

Also because they are often times isolated, have few support systems, most often have more than one child, are financially dependent upon their victimizer by his manipulation, sometimes have been programed in a sense to accept this as their due course in being a woman/wife/religious partner and on and on... with the many reasons a person can get trapped in a situation.

It is not a matter of someone wising up and leaving. It is a matter that may have to be planned for years with numerous attempts at leaving. That means many do go back. Whether it is because they are threatened, found, beaten and drug back or whether they got out there, the shelter was full and crazy and uncomfortable or the situations they found were more scary than he/she was or the baby needed something and they couldn't afford it... they do go back for many reasons and they often times wisely thought it out and knew they needed help that wasn't there because there isn't enough in helping systems even if we have shelters and supports. They are often over used and not available to everyone that might need them.

Stop thinking you are above being involved in domestic abuse! You are not. You would be surprised who is and can be abused and who might find themselves in a shelter or police station... along with a hospital. It can happen in a moment with a man that has never abused before. You can be damaged or killed in a couple of seconds, by anyone that loses it. Having worked in this field and then having my spine curved by a man I was married to for three years before he lost it... this I know first hand and then I needed a shelter that wasn't available.

So if you have a better time of it than your friends and you are a good friend... go get informed and then start fighting with the rest of us trying to do something of real worth in assisting those involved rather than giving them comments that will be added to the hellishness of what they went through in the end. You become a part of the problem if you come at them with the attitude you have. You want to fix things that may never have a cure, but you can be a part of change or help for those around you, but you have to lose the attitude and clueless position you are coming from.

Edit to add that by your comments here... you clearly don't understand bdsm either if you can relate the two.

< Message edited by Lockit -- 2/16/2012 8:55:43 AM >

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 8:53:54 AM

NiceButMeanGirl

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First of all, BDSM is consensual. Domestic violence is not. Before you say, oh but they consent, they stay with their abusers, I would say that they stay because they've been mentally & emotionally broken down in various ways. Is that really consensual? No.

Healthy relationships include trust. Domestic violence does not. With unleashed anger/domestic violence, trust flies right out the window. I would never engage in BDSM with someone when either I or s/he were angry. To me, a Dom/me needs to be in control of him/herself before controlling anyone else. Domestic violence is all about being out of control. I really fail to see the comparison, or how BDSM could cure domestic violence.

I was in a domestic violence situation when I was still "vanilla" and, yes, I started out my BDSM journey as a submissive. But the two were like night and day. The former(domestic violence situation) was totally NON-consensual, the latter(D/s) consensual. The first relationship did NOT include love or trust, and the second did. The first was scary and terrified me, the second did not. Now that I'm a Domme, I still fail to see a similarity between the two.

NBMG

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 8:59:37 AM

DaddySatyr

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From the original post:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DommesLesEnigma

example:
I know or maybe just realized I am a Masochist but I'm not going to tell my partner. Instead I will make my partner like it.
or
I am or just realized I am a sadist and I will provoke my partner until my partner loose his temper and give me what I want. (I don't know if this one works, it is far stretched I will admit.)

I guess, we could start by agreeing that a masochist might be the one provoking their partner and a sadist might try to inflict their will.

A sadist enjoys causing pain or suffering to others and a masochist enjoys receiving same.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 2/16/2012 9:02:40 AM >

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 9:11:53 AM

Winterapple

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FR
No, of course not. The women I know that have "stayed"
(been held hostage) in abusive relationships
did so out of terror not masochism. They were afraid
the SOB would track them down and kill them and
possibly everyone they knew if they leave.
There are abusers in the bdsm world to.
What some people sign up for is not what they
end up getting.

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 9:14:36 AM

mnottertail

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Winterapple
did so out of terror

But that little bit there is pretty fuckin HAWT!

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 9:29:41 AM

DommesLesEnigma

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Thanks for pointing out that again as I said I made a brain fart when I posted and got mf'd for the error, Which bring me to another idea for a different post.

Just trying to get information on it and seeing what comes out of the post question.
I do admit that I have really no experience with DV but what I see because I steer clear of it, and really no understanding of the premise behind it....

...and what I am getting is what I see is a resounding no for various different reasons.

See my next point as I stir the pot some more.

DLE

< Message edited by DommesLesEnigma -- 2/16/2012 9:31:06 AM >

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 10:31:00 AM

SailingBum

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Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence? Ya know you really should engage your mind before you open your mouth. There is so much more I could say but that concept is so asinine top begin with, I doubt the OP would understand.

BadOne

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 11:41:15 AM

DomMeinCT

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DommesLesEnigma

Thanks for pointing out that again as I said I made a brain fart when I posted and got mf'd for the error, Which bring me to another idea for a different post.

Just trying to get information on it and seeing what comes out of the post question.
I do admit that I have really no experience with DV but what I see because I steer clear of it, and really no understanding of the premise behind it....

...and what I am getting is what I see is a resounding no for various different reasons.

See my next point as I stir the pot some more.

DLE

That's a loaded phrase that can often indicate a desire or willingness to deliberately cause conflict instead of generate "conversation".
Was that your intention with this thread (and the other you started), or were they truly created to ask questions? I'm curious.

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 11:47:53 AM

Lockit

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How can you compare... a damn dingy moment (a brain fart) with true ignorance, lack of information and a rotten attitude? You can't... you can try as you did, but it doesn't work with those not having a brain fart.

< Message edited by Lockit -- 2/16/2012 11:49:51 AM >

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 12:17:05 PM

SailingBum

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I believe I just did. To me there is a HUGE difference between saying something stupid and writing something stupid. ppl say stupid stuff all the time <yes I do it all the time> saying something without thinking it through. But to actually sit down and write out a stupid thought is a entirely different matter as that require you to use your cognitive skills, and then you proof it to see if your writing makes sense. Head Desk

BadOne

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 12:23:13 PM

MrBukani

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

Abusers are basically out of control. They can't control their own anger, and that lack of control spills over onto their victims.

Abusers also are insecure. It's the same thing that fuels bullying. Instilling fear in some one else gives them a feeling of power to take away the feeling of inadequacy.

I love this kind of psychobabble that all bullies are insecure. This is why textbook therapy doesnt work on a lot of people. It doesnt amaze me anymore people cant think outside the box. It's like a WWI mentality. Dig in your trench and dont move 1 meter for years on end.
For the victim it would be awkward to become masochist because of DV. For the abuser it might work out being a sadist in a relationship. If he finds a mysogenist who likes that kind of behaviour.
Who knows? But it will probably never be incorporated in standard therapy because of their TOS.
Just like I helped a lot of friends kick their drugaddiction, because regular therapy just doesn't work for them.

(in reply to OsideGirl)

Post #: 40

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