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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 12:52:48 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009


Abusers are basically out of control. They can't control their own anger, and that lack of control spills over onto their victims.


Abusers also are insecure. It's the same thing that fuels bullying. Instilling fear in some one else gives them a feeling of power to take away the feeling of inadequacy.


I love this kind of psychobabble that all bullies are insecure. This is why textbook therapy doesnt work on a lot of people. It doesnt amaze me anymore people cant think outside the box. It's like a WWI mentality. Dig in your trench and dont move 1 meter for years on end.
For the victim it would be awkward to become masochist because of DV. For the abuser it might work out being a sadist in a relationship. If he finds a mysogenist who likes that kind of behaviour.
Who knows? But it will probably never be incorporated in standard therapy because of their TOS.
Just like I helped a lot of friends kick their drugaddiction, because regular therapy just doesn't work for them.


I don't think it's psychobabble at all. True men and women do not use violence against each other in their relationships to either control or make a point. Usually in a situation of domestic violence there is some action on either the part of the abuser or the abused that triggers the violence. In other words, the violence is usually a reaction to either failure or challenge. And the abuser lashes out. But let's step back and think about why either failure or challenge would be upsetting or threatening to someone. Every parent will tell you children can be insecure about themselves as they grow and attain maturity. When you are raising children there are two important life lessons for them to learn with regards to insecurity: one, to understand that sometimes failure is a part of life, and to learn to roll with things and two, that we are not always right. Someone who is violent retains the insecurity of a child - they lack the ability to understand and cope with either failure or challenge, and simply lash out. Violence is an immature response and rooted in the insecurity of a child. People who are narcissistic often have anger management issues. But narcissism is also rooted in insecurity. Just because someone behaves like they love themselves and present themselves in a confident manner does NOT actually mean that they are psychologically secure within themselves.

Addiction is more of a physiological issue, and I do not consider addiction to be the same as violent tendencies at all. Obviously drug and alcohol abuse can make bad behavior worse (but that is true of any bad behavior, not just violence). But the sources of addiction and violence are entirely different and require different approaches.

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 12:54:06 PM   
kitkat105


Posts: 1690
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Status: offline 		Sadomasochism or BDSM should definitely NOT be used as an outlet where either partner would normally resort to domestic violence.

To even insinuate such a thing suggests to me not only have you no idea what it's like to be involved in a relationship of domestic violence but also have no consideration for your own safety or welfare.

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 1:52:11 PM   
Epytropos


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Status: offline 		I don't know that it would cure it. I suppose in some sense it might reframe it; if we start claiming that all relationships are BDSM relationships then it's not abuse, just very zealous punishment. As others have said, though, the foundation of discipline is unconditional positive regard. The foundation of abuse is not. Allowing abusers to fall under our umbrella would be disingenuous. I'm sure there are some who get labeled abusers because they act as we do without framing it properly, but mostly I think the two are distinct and incompatible.

< Message edited by Epytropos -- 2/16/2012 1:53:04 PM >

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 2:21:49 PM   
MrBukani


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Status: offline 		I know the difference between a drugaddiction and domestic violence. Did I ever claim they are the same?
I am claiming conventional psychotherapy doesnt work for a lot of people. Like that Dr Phil shite.

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 2:40:35 PM   
Madame4a


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Status: offline 		argh.. I hate this kind of argument... bdsm isn't the cure for anything... not for domestic violence or sexual abuse.. or childhood abuse.. or rape trauma or any of the other things people think they might get to work out in an SM dynamic...

cut that shit out damn it...

wrong thinking!

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 3:15:05 PM   
stellauk


Posts: 1360
Status: offline 		Domestic violence is a really complex social issue which requires careful examination of individual circumstances by trained professionals and extensive support. It's not really an issue I believe there is a 'cure' for, but something unfortunate which takes places in people's lives and which requires effective help and support on both sides for all those affected.

BDSM and D/s are elements of an intimate relationship between two (or more) consenting adults.

It is just that, nothing more, and it isn't a cure, or a solution, or a means of managing anything, whether it be domestic violence, obesity, clinical depression, mental illness, or any other physical, emotional or mental health problem.

Nor is it a means of 'fixing' or changing people - you cannot 'fix' or change anyone, you can only change relationships, either with yourself or with someone else.

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 3:43:17 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

I know the difference between a drugaddiction and domestic violence. Did I ever claim they are the same?
I am claiming conventional psychotherapy doesnt work for a lot of people. Like that Dr Phil shite.



There is no such thing as "conventional psychotherapy". There are many different approaches that would all still fall under the general term psychotherapy, so I'm not really sure what specifically you mean by either "conventional" (because a lot of psychotherapy is NOT conventional), or what you mean by psychotherapy, because there is no one definition of that term.



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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 5:24:36 PM   
notAkitten


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Status: offline 		I'd like to bring in a bit of a outside viewpoint here- That of a child that witnessed DV. Since then, I've listen to the stories my mother told me of all the times he hit her and why it happened. I've even done therapy over the situation.
There's a different dynamic involved in DV versus BDSM. Alcohol and or drugs often are involved. Power, yes, but not an exchange of power, but a forcing of it on another person. There is no consent to exchange power. Powerlessness over a situation or person that the abuser cannot change or control. It's easier to hit/control the partner. Anger, often at something or someone totally unrelated to the person getting beaten. That person just happened to be at hand to get it taken out on them. Again, it's easier to take it out on the partner.
BDSM can't fix the underlying issues affecting the abuser. It *might* give them a way to temporarily discharge those things I mentioned above, but it can't fix anything. Therapy may or may not help, it depends on how deep those issues go and if that person is willing to admit to and work to change those things that are affecting them. In my fathers case, he chose to attempt to drown them in alcohol and remained an abuser until the day he died.
This might not bring anything new to the discussion, but is things I learned in trying to deal with the feelings that were caused by what I witnessed as a child.

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 5:54:00 PM   
MsJDoe


Posts: 2
Joined: 6/29/2011
Status: offline 		While an abuser MAY' honor negotiations, safewords and limits in a BDSM scene 'cuz they want to look like a good guy to the community. Their real game is to control and injure their 'beloved'. And looking like the 'good guy' to others is a common tactic in discrediting and harming their partner.

They Can and DO murder/injure their partners (and unborn babies) deliberately. But it's NOT their kink and beating the shit out of some one who consents would not provide release. The abuser physically, mentally and emotionally beats down their beloved because they think the only way to keep them is to destroy them so they CAN'T leave. If the beloved is also blind, crippled, scarred (physically and mentally), dead - so be it. Crazy but true. (Remember the scene in Steven King's "Misery" where she breaks his ankles?)

I propose a much more effective treatment for DV is to educate and build up the self-esteem of victims so they avoid abusers BEFORE they get caught up in the insanity and abuse. Basically BREED abusers out of existence.

This requires education of potential victims and the public at large so they are able and willing to provide appropriate assistance for survivors seeking their freedom. Simply leaving is not always an option due to threats to the person, their children, lack of money, etc.

I agree that it is frustrating to see DV victims defend their abusers.
As a survivor of DV, I can report that it's complicated and generally don't speak of it for fear of being blamed by others for 'wanting it'. Since I am NOT a masochist, I try to avoid getting beaten up (physically and mentally). But here goes - abusers really mess with your mind and convince you that it's you're fault, you deserved it, no one else would ever have you, you're crazy and imagined all of it, and the grand finale - no one would believe you if you said anything about what was happening (this is legitimate).
It's a daily, deliberate soul-murder.

I can not, however, speak knowledgeably on the subject of masochism. Does a masochist seek to feel soul-dead, crazy, abandoned, so much pain that its easier to feel numb, , worthless, distrustful of their own inner guidance, isolated? Do some masochists seek this as a 24/7 existence? If so, perhaps a DV abuser is the ideal partner for them. But if you LIKE it, is it abuse? If the masochist likes it, would a DV abuser feel safe and in control?

MsJDoe

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 5:55:52 PM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

I know the difference between a drugaddiction and domestic violence. Did I ever claim they are the same?
I am claiming conventional psychotherapy doesnt work for a lot of people. Like that Dr Phil shite.



There is no one size fits all ever. And watching tv is not the same as having in depth one on one cognitive behavioral therapy. In fact, by trying to do stuff inside of one hour with people watching for entertainment, is a guarantee that things won't work.

Depending on the problem, there are multiple possible solutions. Different therapy models, different medications, and self help groups.

I doubt you have magically cured an addictive personality. If so, you ought to share it with the world. You could make millions.

In addition, no one ever claims that therapy works on addiction. It doesn't. The only thing that does are 12 step groups. Anybody can get dry, but that's not the same as sobriety. It isn't the same as not still craving it. And it doesn't change their attitudes.

What many people do however is simply change the choice of addiction.


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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 6:59:06 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsJDoe

I can not, however, speak knowledgeably on the subject of masochism. Does a masochist seek to feel soul-dead, crazy, abandoned, so much pain that its easier to feel numb, , worthless, distrustful of their own inner guidance, isolated? Do some masochists seek this as a 24/7 existence? If so, perhaps a DV abuser is the ideal partner for them. But if you LIKE it, is it abuse? If the masochist likes it, would a DV abuser feel safe and in control?

MsJDoe


As a masochist (in the BDSM sense of the word), I would have to say that this is NOT what a masochist seeks, at all. S&M is about pain - but pain administered in well-defined and previously consented to ways. S&M is NOT about causing the bottom to feel soul-dead, crazy, worthless, isolated, lost, or abandoned. It is generally about inducing an endorphin rush that is actually a very pleasurable sensation. I see absolutely zero connection between S&M interaction and what I would term domestic abuse. S&M is also separate from D/s (both might be part of a relationship, but they need not be - those who are solely into S&M often refer to roles as tops and bottoms rather that using the terms Dominant and submissive - S&M, on its own, is not really about power exchange or control the way it is thought of in D/s).

However, it might be possible for an abuser to lure (that really is the best word for it) a masochist into their world, and once they are hooked into a relationship that starts out consensual and positive, have it transform into something else (i.e., where the masochist is attached to the abuser, and then finds it difficult to leave even when the relationship turns into an abusive one). However, this would no longer be a BDSM relationship governed by safe, sane, consensual guidelines. This would just be a relationship that had become an abusive one.

I really fundamentally believe that a situation of domestic violence is not BDSM. Period.

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 7:13:26 PM   
xssve


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Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		You might say that both sadists and masochists do what they do to feel alive, whereas in abuse, the abuser is already dead inside and misery love company.

Not very scientific, but I think it makes a distinction.


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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 7:15:18 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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Status: offline 		I'd say yes, but I'm a guy with testosterone bulging through his veins, so I'm probably a smidge biased.

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/16/2012 10:48:49 PM   
MsJDoe


Posts: 2
Joined: 6/29/2011
Status: offline 		fucktoyprincess,
thank you for the clarification.
I agree there is nothing safe, sane or consensual about domestic violence and as such it does not belong in the S-M or D-s community.


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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/17/2012 2:01:45 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

I know the difference between a drugaddiction and domestic violence. Did I ever claim they are the same?
I am claiming conventional psychotherapy doesnt work for a lot of people. Like that Dr Phil shite.



1 There is no one size fits all ever. And watching tv is not the same as having in depth one on one cognitive behavioral therapy. In fact, by trying to do stuff inside of one hour with people watching for entertainment, is a guarantee that things won't work.

2 Depending on the problem, there are multiple possible solutions. Different therapy models, different medications, and self help groups.

3 I doubt you have magically cured an addictive personality. If so, you ought to share it with the world. You could make millions.

4 In addition, no one ever claims that therapy works on addiction. It doesn't. The only thing that does are 12 step groups. Anybody can get dry, but that's not the same as sobriety. It isn't the same as not still craving it. And it doesn't change their attitudes.

5 What many people do however is simply change the choice of addiction.


1 That's why I am saying textbook psychology whatever 1000th method doesnt work for all.
2 One answer, prozac nation is zombie philosophy for the greedy Pharmaceutical Industry
3 Why would I share something here that can make me millions?
4 Contradiction in terms, thank you very much
5 That's why unconventional methods cannot be justified by government funded organisations

Change doesnt mean that use of other substances leads to another addiction automaticly.
You ever heard of the word dicipline?


< Message edited by MrBukani -- 2/17/2012 2:04:14 AM >

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/17/2012 5:01:21 AM   
sheisreeds


Posts: 578
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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

I know the difference between a drugaddiction and domestic violence. Did I ever claim they are the same?
I am claiming conventional psychotherapy doesnt work for a lot of people. Like that Dr Phil shite.



1 There is no one size fits all ever. And watching tv is not the same as having in depth one on one cognitive behavioral therapy. In fact, by trying to do stuff inside of one hour with people watching for entertainment, is a guarantee that things won't work.

2 Depending on the problem, there are multiple possible solutions. Different therapy models, different medications, and self help groups.

3 I doubt you have magically cured an addictive personality. If so, you ought to share it with the world. You could make millions.

4 In addition, no one ever claims that therapy works on addiction. It doesn't. The only thing that does are 12 step groups. Anybody can get dry, but that's not the same as sobriety. It isn't the same as not still craving it. And it doesn't change their attitudes.

5 What many people do however is simply change the choice of addiction.


1 That's why I am saying textbook psychology whatever 1000th method doesnt work for all.
2 One answer, prozac nation is zombie philosophy for the greedy Pharmaceutical Industry
3 Why would I share something here that can make me millions?
4 Contradiction in terms, thank you very much
5 That's why unconventional methods cannot be justified by government funded organisations

Change doesnt mean that use of other substances leads to another addiction automaticly.
You ever heard of the word dicipline?



No matter what change requires a willingness to change, that is why all that "psychobabble" often doesn't work. Therapy and other forms of treatment work when people are ready for it. The problem with most abusers is that their personality deficits so often place them in a position of power, and their deficits also allow them to rationalize their behavior. There is very little desire to change.

Abuse is very often a cycle.

Women who are abused are often abused, or witness abuse as children. They grow up viewing abuse in relationship as normal, abuse becomes their psychological imprint. The same often happens for men.

BDSM and a history of abuse or trauma often interact poorly unless the survivor is in an active state of recovery. A duckbill platypus looks like a duck, but they aren't even in the same regions of the animal kingdom. Same thing goes for abuse and BDSM. They may to appear on the surface to have some similarities but they exist in completely different worlds.

BDSM requires that both partners have a strong sense of self respect, self confidence, and self love to pull through the things that we do in a safe way physically, mentally and emotionally. Domestic violence and abuse of any sort corrupts the sense of self at it's core.



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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/17/2012 7:23:35 AM   
MrBukani


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Status: offline 		Thats übercool writing.

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/17/2012 7:37:40 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		Well said.

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/17/2012 8:01:24 AM   
dovie


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Status: offline 		Not even going to read further into this thread. Here's my response:

dovie

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RE: Could BDSM D/s cure Domestic Violence - 2/17/2012 8:16:29 AM   
MrBukani


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Joined: 4/18/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dovie

Not even going to read further into this thread. Here's my response:

dovie

Yeah the aftermath is always best. There is stupid uneducated numbnuts out there you know, give'm a chance.

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