RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message


xssve -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (2/27/2012 6:30:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

Could it not be that they are living in the real world and you are not?


Or could it be the other way around.
But I see essentially what you are saying is it's okay for a ruling class to prohibit the lower or subject class to enjoy freedoms that they enjoy secretly.

<WEED PICTURE HERE>


This is essentially Calvinist predispensationalism in a nutshell: the elect are saved regardless of what they do, the non-elect are damned, regardless of what they do, but Jesus will not return to save the elect until they have prepared the way for Jesus return by forcing the non-elect to obey gods laws (premilenialism) - even though the non-elect are damned either way, and those laws don't apply to to the elect.

It's very clever theology with a great deal of appeal to the ruling classes, it's hypocrisy codified and theologically justified, depravity indeed.

And no, nobody ought really be surprised by that, given that of the Two faces of religion, one of them is always patently and egregiously self serving, because that is indeed, one of the faces of humans.

Ultimately however, w/regard to evolutionary rules, caste systems are artificial and invariably damaging to group fitness and lead to decline - ethical standards have a very real place in evolutionary theory, in which the robustness of a species is not dependent on the success of any given individual or fraction of individuals, but the health of the gene pool as a whole.

Thus, it would be error to apply a Naturalistic fallacy here, and just as self serving opportunism and hypocrisy is "natural" to the end of increasing individual fitness (and maximizing individual reproductive potential), it's just as natural to form ethical bonds to maximize overall group fitness - and that is a long term strategy, one that usually prevails over the long term, given that competing groups do the same and groups invariably have the advantage over the individual.

At the same time, as alluded to previously, when the group ceases to represent the broadest profile of it's members, and favors an increasingly smaller sub-group to the detriment of the rest, decline and displacement by a more ethical group is likely, since nature recognizes no castes or theologies, abstract boundaries or borders, innovation and mutation, being random, is pretty democratic statistically speaking.

i.e., there is a reason the European feudal system was displaced, it's practically a statistical algorithm that just as cultures devolve into feudalism, they eventually evolve right out of it again when it becomes more of a burden than an advantage.




BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (2/27/2012 6:30:46 AM)

In the defense of SternSkipper a likely origin for the accusation may have to do with what he does. People in politics are mortified by the possibility of such accusations. There is a total paranoid zero tolerance of anything that could even remotely be construed as harassment/stalking. Could remotely be construed becomes fact. He could be trying to do you a favor by saying (to put words in his mouth) "Be cautious man! There are people out who want to string you up by the balls just because you are a man!" In a round about way, in all seriousness, he could be complimenting you on your virility DesideriScuri.




xssve -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (2/27/2012 7:02:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

In the absence of a moral theory that explains everything without contradiction, any attempt to be moral entails hypocrisy. In the absence of such a theory, the rejection of hypocrisy with solidarity is to reject morality in its entirety.
You'll have to explain that, we have moral theories, several of them, that explain everything, including hypocrisy.

What you seem to be trying to do is excuse it, via naturalistic fallacy. It is there, always been there, probably always be there, and it will always be pointed out for almost the exact same reasons you've been arguing for it - why the hell should I let some hypocrite get away with it if I can't?

You now have the basis of a moral/ethical system, based on a solid universal principle: rule of law.

The rest is praxis, applying it, an in order to apply it, you are obligated to expose hypocrisy when you see it - because the moral/ethical system and the prnciple it's based on doesn't make it just go away, people are still the same, that's about all you can reasonably argue, they are now simply held to a standard.

And there has to be some standard for standards or you might as well do away with standards altogether, in which case new self serving standards will simply arise, religious, political, etc., because that's the pattern - self interest is innately human - thus we have moral/ethical systems, rule of law, the bill of rights, capitalism (yes, it's a moral philosophy, based on the principle of self interest in competition), and the Anglo-Saxon legal system, all of which recognize self interest as innate, and are structured to get that to work for the group instead of against it.

It ain't perfect, by any means, it's an imperfect world, but it no reason to discount the effort, which gets results - you're just reinventing the wheel and leaving out a few spokes.




BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (2/27/2012 7:07:06 AM)

In response to xssve in post 141 http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4044829

Calvinist predispensationalism strikes me as too neat. The Catholic Church tries to accommodate government. If the current system of government is feudalism, then that is what it adapts itself to. What you wrote, "... decline and displacement by a more ethical group is likely ... " seemed conceited in that you are describing the current situation in Europe. The importance to abstain from rejecting hypocrisy with solidarity could be justified using evolutionary biology. Progress cannot be made in the absence of contradiction.




xssve -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (2/27/2012 7:08:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

Do you have any idea how many women Einstein got? It is something to contemplate.
M = Fc^2
M equals F c squared.


Oooh lookie ... make-believe equations cute ....
ie - Einstein
Not really many for a guy who stunned the world. You wanna get lucky with physics blather you're better off hitting up Michio Kaku for tips ... when he comes to Cambridge he hangs with my homie Jonathan, who says the guy scores "like a fisherman with dynamite".

I think Einstein did ok in that department, and managed to make a significant contribution to group fitness other than whatever dribbled out the end of his dick.




BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (2/27/2012 7:26:27 AM)

In response to post 143 http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4044847 by xssve

You are associating my work with the naturalistic fallacy by connotation, not denotation. I may have to revisit what you wrote to examine it more carefully, however, to do what you wrote justice. I don't have enough time to do it so I guess this was an FR for fast response. My arguments you will find are unusually clean which is likely confusing. Without examining what you wrote in more detail my impression is you are introducing a lot of extraneous detail. I will need to first simplify what you wrote to remove the extraneous details before I can comment on it further.




xssve -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (2/27/2012 8:00:35 AM)

quote:

Why are people often not willing to play by the rules? I watched a program recently on the recent work being done in criminal psychology and psy-cop-athy. What I found striking is the willingness of those who have been diagnosed with the disorder to play by the rules which may seem ironic or initially absurd. I'm talking here about the logical rules, not the rules that make us human. They behave like intelligent machines, but not people. As odd as it may seem a lack of willingness to play by the rules, as in doing what is logical, is what makes us human.
That is a cogent point, and there is a word for it in evolutionary theory, it's called acentrism (without center), as opposed to centripetalism (arranged about a center).

Few species are either/or, centripetalism is essentially a defensive response to a threat - they are either acentric-centripetal or centripetal-acentric.

organisms tend to aggregate and form groups (populations): colonies, herds, packs, tribes, etc., in common defense, and and the groups evolve centripetal defensive strategies - a herd of ungulates will tend to be arranged with the females and young towards the middle, the alpha males towards the periphery - they have a better chance of escaping a predator, and in so doing, alert the rest of the herd to the presence of that predator - but they do it largely because the center will tend to be rapidly overgrazed and the best forage is going to be towards the periphery, where the herd has not passed.

Still, a herd that does this will over time, be more successful (breed more rapidly) than a herd that routinely exposes the females and young to predators, thus opportunism becomes strategy.

In centripetal-acentric species, such as Baboons, this herd configuration will be explicitly enforced - Alpha male Baboons do not allow the the females or young to stray form the middle in search of better forage, but bite and cuff them to keep them in a relatively tight, defensible formation.

In acentric-centripetal species, the Great Apes for example, to which group we belong, the formations are looser, the centripetal defensive formation is not enforced until a threat actually appears, at which point the Alpha males will rush to distract the predator, allowing the females and young to escape.

The looser restrictions on acentric behaviors has benefits to the group in terms of innovation - creativity - which is really defined by doing something that nobody else is doing or has ever done - the very polar opposite of conformity which is simply reproducing behavior by rote, imitation, which, of course, also has it's place, as an innovation that is successful, will then be imitated, contributing to group fitness, while unsuccessful behavirors will tend to be ignored - i.e., it works almost exactly like selection on the genetic level, only in terms of abstract behavior, creativity and imitation on a more abstract, behavioral level.

And, it's why humans evolved from acentric-centripetal hominids, and not centripetal-acentric hominids, acentric-centripetalism is the more adaptive mode, and we are nothing if not highly adaptive.

But, these are the ancestors of our current political divisions, the centripetal right, including the religious right, imitative, and scornful of creativity, but acting in an organized fashion, and the Left, creative and adaptive but all over the map, from feminism to animal rights to gender bending, to alternate mind states via psychoactive chemistry or ritual practice, etc., etc., and so on.

Diversity vs. conformity - the essential difference being that humans preserve adaptations not only through behavioral imitation, but through cultural modes of communication: oral history, literature, art, music, etc. - pure abstractions that may or may not even have behavioral antecedents.

It's empirically implausible for example, that Jesus actually awoke from the dead, literally, so if we accept that as fact for the sake of argument, there is no behavioral antecedent for rising from the dead, and yet entire populations alter their behavior in conformity to this purely abstract ideal/innovation as if it were a behavioral antecedent, and even further, actively attempting to eradicate those who view this effort with a jaundiced eye in both abstract and literal terms.

It complicates things: abstraction, you see, is a Two edged sword.




xssve -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (2/27/2012 8:16:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

In response to post 143 http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4044847 by xssve

You are associating my work with the naturalistic fallacy by connotation, not denotation. I may have to revisit what you wrote to examine it more carefully, however, to do what you wrote justice. I don't have enough time to do it so I guess this was an FR for fast response. My arguments you will find are unusually clean which is likely confusing. Without examining what you wrote in more detail my impression is you are introducing a lot of extraneous detail. I will need to first simplify what you wrote to remove the extraneous details before I can comment on it further.
There is very little of clarity in what you have offered so far, other than an interesting symbolic analysis of a fetish horror movie - so far, all I see is "Do What You Will..." etc., which has been tried before, with mixed results.

It's often presented as innovation and "clarity", but it tends to ignore history which teaches us that some things almost always work with good results, other things pretty much always go South, no matter how good they sound on paper.

e.g., it's kind of like discovering you have a dick - it's along way from there to raising  a successful child or Two, full of extraneous detail.




BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (2/28/2012 5:12:37 AM)

In the interest of simplicity, I have decided to leave it as an exercise for our gentle readers to decide for themselves who is righteous and who is misdirected.




xssve -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (2/28/2012 5:34:41 AM)

I'm not even sure what your thesis is - that hypocrisy exists? We should applaud it instead of hypocritically deploring it?

It's a given that self interest generates hypocrisy: the framers of the constitution laid the groundwork for liberty and freedom of conscience were profiting from the slave trade,  the religious right beats their breast over pregnancy prevention, bravely standing up for the rights of spermatozoa and unfertilized eggs over here, while patriotically cheering this over there, labelling critics of it "traitors" or outright accusing them of terrorist complicity - in general, when it your ass on the line it's there something in everybody that says "every man for himself", human nature - nobility is revered precisely because it is not common.

Thing is, we progress by overcoming our worse natures for out better ones, more often than not, and if a thing is defensible, then history and common sense will usually judge it so, whatever people say at the time.

People seem to know this even when pains are taken to rewrite history, possibly because we need hope, and some assurance it's not just our superstitious talismans that stands between us and the yawning lightlessness of the abyss - that we are above it, and not of it.




BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (2/28/2012 3:33:54 PM)

... I have not encountered many females here who would make a good life companion. It would be better to establish a vanilla relationship where you borrow a few techniques from here.

... This seems to me an admission that you are not going to find any sweetness here. You have to go elsewhere to find it. If you have to go elsewhere to find it, what does this say about this place? Yes, but did I not say "... where you borrow a few techniques from here." Shrugs, so I'm a hypocrite.

It is not as if this world has nothing to offer. It just does not have a whole lot to offer. On the flip side, the vanilla world has a lot to offer, but is not altogether complete. Neither world is Heaven, which is why what I just said makes sense. The vanilla world often thinks of itself as the be all and end all, as if it were Heaven. This is a lie. The vanilla world is the world of the mostly true, but this does not make it the world of truth, either. This world on the other hand is a world of little truth, but not no truth.

Maybe you feel like excrement and do not want to be reminded of it. Satan feels that we are excrement. It is God who feels that we are Saints in the Making. Pick your poison, but isn't it the hypocrisy to end all hypocrisies to have no self-respect? I believe in God because I have self-respect. To respect God is to respect yourself and all that you are. In fact, the statement is invertible. Either way the result is the same. To respect yourself and all that you are is to believe in God. The relationship is one of equivalence, not identity, however. The distinction is subtle, but significant. In mathematics, equivalence and identity have different symbols. The failure to appreciate the distinction results in subtle errors in reasoning.

Why is the distinction important? Your judgment can lie to you. What you thought were identical may in fact be distinct because you failed to understand for example what it means to have self-respect. What you thought was true at the beginning of the journey need not be what you will know to be true later on. You thought it made sense at the time.

Is doing wrong to someone who is a member of your own species going to give you self-respect? My condemnation goes both ways. It applies to this world and the vanilla world. God judges us all. They often forget that. They think of themselves superior when they are not. They are no better than many of you. If you feel you are excrement, maybe it is because you are seeing the current status of your soul and they do not. As they say ignorance can be bliss, at least it can appear to be so.

How do you get out of a maze whose complexity is infinite? It takes a helping hand from above.

There is a famous book called Flatland. Suppose we were living in flatland, but there is a third unseen dimension.


quote:

BenevolentM

I know the feeling, to feel hurt for having to reject a female because she is unsuitable. Unsuitable and undesirable females are often far more willing and accessible. It is a matter of self-respect. Life is a paradox; consequently, it is a puzzle to be worked out. It has to be worked out in a satisfactory manner if you are ever to reach as you pointed out your heart's fulfillment. As I pointed out there are missing ingredients. The most important of which is God. So as twisted as it may seem initially, if you understand the concepts covered and can figure out what is missing, you have accomplished much.


A common example for the missing ingredient is yeast as in the use of yeast in making bread. It is what makes the bread rise, but what if you were living in flatland and the third dimension is hidden from view? Does this imply that the third dimension can be ignored because it is not part of reality? No, it does not, but you would think on a day-to-day basis that it could. Yeast appears to do nothing. To a flatlander, yeast may in fact appear troublesome. At the end of our journey, will we discover that we are flat bread or all that we can be?




BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (2/28/2012 4:11:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

There is very little of clarity in what you have offered so far, other than an interesting symbolic analysis of a fetish horror movie - so far, all I see is "Do What You Will..." etc., which has been tried before, with mixed results.

It's often presented as innovation and "clarity", but it tends to ignore history which teaches us that some things almost always work with good results, other things pretty much always go South, no matter how good they sound on paper.


Again, preoccupation with connotations! Must I shake you! I'm not talking about "Do What You Will". You only think I do. As the French might say, "It is all in the sauce." which is to say that it is not in the meat and potatoes. You are meat and potatoes, so you don't get it. In this thread what I advanced was a prohibition, Thou shalt not. "Do What You Will" is a permission. In other words, you have no idea what I'm actually talking about. Have I succeeded in confusing, wink, the Hell out of you? I suspect that Dr. Michio Kaku might understand what I'm talking about, but people can be infinitely dense at times. Surely, it would take the most intelligent and warm blooded man in the world to understand anything that I say.

There was one thing you advanced in post 143 http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4044847 that was communicative. You wrote "The rest is praxis ..." This is your mistake. MrBukani wrote in post 128 http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4042808 "You could switch your own words round." Yes, that is the point. The word hypocrisy does not refer to anything which is specific; hence, no praxis. In other words, if you seek the abolition of hypocrisy, you are a pursuing a dangerous delusion because you are going out and hurting people over something that isn't real, as ironic as that may seem, which makes you a hypocrite. What appears to be true need not be true and what appears to be false need not be false. According to appearances, i.e. empirical observation, God does not exist; yet, appearances can be deceiving. Hypocrisy appears to be real, yet it isn't.


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

e.g., it's kind of like discovering you have a dick - it's along way from there to raisingĀ  a successful child or Two, full of extraneous detail.


This is an archetypical viewpoint. You just can't see my missing ingredient, viagra ultimate!




xssve -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (2/28/2012 5:58:44 PM)

I'm sorry, the word "hypocrisy" is an abstraction, which describes an empirically quantifiable phenomena.




BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (2/28/2012 6:15:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

I'm not even sure what your thesis is - that hypocrisy exists? We should applaud it instead of hypocritically deploring it?


My thesis is that hypocrisy does NOT exist. The notion is too non-specific and such it is a wax nose. Hypocrisy can be whatever you want it to be, more or less. Some things are not hypocritical. This is what gives the deception the appearance of substance. See post 152 http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4046252. Post 151 wouldn't hurt either. Heck all my posts are great. See also post 139 http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4044816. If you can get past my religiosity, you may learn something. The point in post 139 is that Jesus did not reject hypocrisy per se. He rejected something more specific.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

... nobility is revered precisely because it is not common. ...


Yet we are destined for nobility and we must seek nobility.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

People seem to know ...


Now isn't that interesting. We seem to know something forgotten. Something that was, but is no more, but will be yet again. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." Revelation 22:13 New American Standard Bible 1995 http://nasb.scripturetext.com/revelation/22.htm




BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (2/28/2012 6:23:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

I'm sorry, the word "hypocrisy" is an abstraction, which describes an empirically quantifiable phenomena.


I agree that hypocrisy is an abstraction. It is not, however, something that can be empirically quantified because it doesn't exist. The researcher in order to measure it would need to be measuring something more specific. Though we are accustomed to taking measurements of things that correspond to an abstraction such as force. Abstractness does not imply existence.




BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (2/28/2012 6:33:10 PM)

What many do not seem to realize is that our belief in God is derived from philosophical considerations. To believe in God one must in one sense or another be a philosopher. God is clearly our end point in our evolutionary path. However, as I pointed out earlier in post 151 http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4046219 one must not confuse equivalence with identity.




xssve -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (2/28/2012 6:34:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

I'm sorry, the word "hypocrisy" is an abstraction, which describes an empirically quantifiable phenomena.


I agree that hypocrisy is an abstraction. It is not, however, something that can be empirically quantified because it doesn't exist. The researcher in order to measure it would need to be measuring something more specific. Though we are accustomed to taking measurements of things that correspond to an abstraction such as force. Abstractness does not imply existence.
Lemme guess, big Ayn Rand fan are you?




xssve -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (2/28/2012 6:39:04 PM)

Saying one thing and doing another is called hypocrisy - words are quantifiable, as are actions, and congruency between the two can be established, demonstrated or disproved, thus, hypocrisy is an empirical phenomena.

God cannot be quantified empirically in any sense, thus god is not real, other than as a concept, the concept, or belief in a god or gods, variously defined is a real and quantifiable phenomena however.




BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (2/28/2012 7:13:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Lemme guess, big Ayn Rand fan are you?


No. I assure you that when God made me, He broke the mold.




BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (2/28/2012 7:27:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Saying one thing and doing another is called hypocrisy - words are quantifiable, as are actions, and congruency between the two can be established, demonstrated or disproved, thus, hypocrisy is an empirical phenomena.


The things, actions are quantifiable. Don't you realize that abstractions are not concrete? They appear to be concrete in physics problems, but they are not in themselves concrete.

This is what happens. You take a measurement. The measurement concerns something specific. The abstraction that you believe you are measuring is vague (though the measurements themselves are specific). You make grand definite irrefutable assertions, then disaster comes because you were wrong. Why were you wrong? What you thought you were observing wasn't what you were observing. It is like confusing Pinhead with God.


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

God cannot be quantified empirically in any sense, thus god is not real, other than as a concept, the concept, or belief in a god or gods, variously defined is a real and quantifiable phenomena however.


I was going for plausibility. You are claiming that plausibility is irrelevant. A belief in God involves taking a series of steps where it begins with plausibility and He becomes increasingly plausible with each step. You begin to doubt that He does not exist. It begins with a mustard seed where a small doubt becomes a larger doubt.




Page: <<   < prev  6 7 [8] 9 10   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875