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RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what a... - 3/2/2012 3:25:51 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline 		What about this baby born without a brain? How does that work?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ilKXB4pwSI

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what a... - 3/2/2012 3:53:52 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

In this case, one hypothesis says that the operation of the brain is affected in a rather ill-defined way by influences that are not described by the known laws of physics, and that these effects will ultimately help us make sense of human consciousness; the other says that brains are complicated, so it’s no surprise that we don’t understand everything, BUT that an ultimate explanation will fit comfortably within the framework of known fundamental physics. This is not really a close call...


Now there's a hoot. Physics has no explanation for consciousness, BUT we should just have faith that someday it will. And in the always wonderful spirit of priestly conceit, given a choice between faith and reason it's not even "a close call."

The really mind-numbing part of this ecclesiastical rot is the claim it makes for why any other explanation is foolish, namely, that it would mean, "the particular collection of atoms we call the brain obeys different rules than other collections of atoms."

That's not really a very good way to counter the argument that, in actual fact, "the particular collection of atoms we call the brain" obeys precisely the same rules as any other collection of atoms, i.e., the physics of dead matter.

Dead, get it? As in, "not alive." And if it's just dead matter, then there is nothing unreasonable about a suspicion that something more than the known laws of physics might be necessary to explain, well, if not all of us, at least most of us.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/2/2012 4:40:12 AM >

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RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what a... - 3/2/2012 4:47:40 AM   
SoftBonds


Posts: 862
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Status: offline 		If a computer can pass a Turing test, does that mean it has a soul?

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RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what a... - 3/2/2012 5:02:12 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds

If a computer can pass a Turing test, does that mean it has a soul?

I didn't say anything about a "soul," but okay I'll play...

If you fail a Turing test, does that mean you're a computer?

K.

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RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what a... - 3/2/2012 7:32:42 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Now there's a hoot. Physics has no explanation for consciousness, BUT we should just have faith that someday it will. And in the always wonderful spirit of priestly conceit, given a choice between faith and reason it's not even "a close call."


There is plenty of explanation for consciousness in physiological electrochemistry, sensory receptors, memory storage, awareness of self and environment, will, and reacton. It is your unwillingness to give up and your inability to prove mind/body duality that keeps you blind to the physical explanations. You support your position by (a) not having a position except all others are wrong; (b) using the old and discredited god of the gaps argument, i.e. if we don't understand it then it must be some 'other' agency, which is no better than the primative evocation of the spirit of the woods because the forest is a dark and dangerous place whose gods must be appeased; and (c) by making the hilarious claim that the brain is "dead matter," which serves to underscore your inability to comprehend that Life is the gestalt of the electrochemical processes in the organism.

The brain is not alive? Really! By your definition.

Your sarcasm does not hide the hollowness of your philosophy. As always, you attack but offer nothing which you must defend. A clever but transparent debate trick.

There is no evidence that there is a "ghost in the machine." All of your arguments are simply negations without positive counter positions. it is useless to engage in such dialogue because your half is absent.


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RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what a... - 3/2/2012 11:26:24 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Your sarcasm does not hide the hollowness of your philosophy. As always, you attack but offer nothing which you must defend. A clever but transparent debate trick.


Seriously, his A game is heckling and lies. Just hit the hide button it makes CM a much more pleasant experience. Personally I regret that I didn't do it sooner, I had been suffering from the misunderstanding that he was agnostic.

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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what a... - 3/2/2012 11:45:12 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds
If a computer can pass a Turing test, does that mean it has a soul?


If I'm ignorant of how my clock works does that mean it has a soul?

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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what a... - 3/2/2012 4:11:03 PM   
SoftBonds


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds

If a computer can pass a Turing test, does that mean it has a soul?

I didn't say anything about a "soul," but okay I'll play...

If you fail a Turing test, does that mean you're a computer?

K.


I'm sorry, your comment does not compute.
(a)bort/(r)etry/(f)ail?>

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(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what a... - 3/2/2012 4:34:21 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

the hilarious claim that the brain is "dead matter," which serves to underscore your inability to comprehend that Life is the gestalt of the electrochemical processes in the organism.

What atoms are alive? If none of them are, then by the operation of what laws of physics does a bag of marbles sit up and order lunch? Life as you are describing it would be mere appearance, an illusion that arises when systems become sufficiently complex. Is that your position?

K.

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Profile   Post #: 149
RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what a... - 3/2/2012 4:37:12 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Seriously, his A game is heckling and lies... I had been suffering from the misunderstanding that he was agnostic.

And now you are suffering from the illusion that I'm not. But hey, I guess anything is better than admitting that you don't have a clue.

Additionally, be advised that if you accuse me of lying again, we're going to have a problem.

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what a... - 3/2/2012 5:15:26 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

All of your arguments are simply negations without positive counter positions. it is useless to engage in such dialogue because your half is absent.

When something doesn't look like a duck, waddle like a duck, or quack like a duck, a person is not required to make a claim about what it actually is in order to observe that it sure as hell ain't a fucking duck.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/2/2012 5:16:26 PM >

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RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what a... - 3/2/2012 9:54:49 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
The brain is not alive? Really! By your definition.


I'm a little curious about the implications of this, do you suppose this means that every sperm is sacred or that lower life forms are zombies?

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Profile   Post #: 152
RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what a... - 3/2/2012 10:38:21 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
The brain is not alive? Really! By your definition.

I'm a little curious about the implications of this...

I'm more curious about the implications of matter (any matter) being alive.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/2/2012 10:49:12 PM >

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RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what a... - 3/3/2012 1:05:02 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

I'm more curious about the implications of matter (any matter) being alive.

K.

This is not aimed at any one in particular:

Isn't this little disagreement merely a re-hashing of the old question: Is a human being the sum of its parts?

If so, here's my contribution: A human being is the sum of its parts plus something extra.

I have no idea what that 'something extra' is. I can't even begin to define it. I've no idea what it might be composed of, if indeed it has a material dimension. But I tend to think that something is there.

FWIW investigating that 'something extra' has the potential to be the most interesting and illuminating aspect of spiritual, intellectual and scientific inquiry. So I find it sad that both sides appear so often to approach this issue from fixed, sometimes dogmatic positions.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/3/2012 1:08:46 AM >

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RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what a... - 3/3/2012 4:53:39 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

I'm more curious about the implications of matter (any matter) being alive.

K.

This is not aimed at any one in particular:

Isn't this little disagreement merely a re-hashing of the old question: Is a human being the sum of its parts?

If so, here's my contribution: A human being is the sum of its parts plus something extra.

I have no idea what that 'something extra' is. I can't even begin to define it. I've no idea what it might be composed of, if indeed it has a material dimension. But I tend to think that something is there.

FWIW investigating that 'something extra' has the potential to be the most interesting and illuminating aspect of spiritual, intellectual and scientific inquiry. So I find it sad that both sides appear so often to approach this issue from fixed, sometimes dogmatic positions.


I can't agree with your characterization of "this little disagreement merely a re-hashing of the old question . . . " The question may be historically old but to each individual who seeks meaning to his/her life it is born anew. The answer of course depends on what you have learned and where you stand. It is the most personal of all questions, imo, and is why each of us has different answers which satisfy us.

In your tentative formulation, as I read it, the "something extra" seems to be something "extra corpuscular" to coin a phrase. In my materialistic metaphysics the "something extra" is imagination/creativity, wonderous to contemplate, difficult to measure, but activities of the brain, part of the sum total of brain activity we call "mind." Perceiving, learning, imagining, creating are, to suggest an answer to another question posed above: "implications of matter (any matter) being alive."


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RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what a... - 3/3/2012 5:03:12 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

the hilarious claim that the brain is "dead matter," which serves to underscore your inability to comprehend that Life is the gestalt of the electrochemical processes in the organism.

What atoms are alive? If none of them are, then by the operation of what laws of physics does a bag of marbles sit up and order lunch? Life as you are describing it would be mere appearance, an illusion that arises when systems become sufficiently complex. Is that your position?

K.


Nowhere did I say atoms are alive. Your extreme reductionism is ludicrous on its face. Life is an illusion? Is that your position?

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what a... - 3/3/2012 5:09:16 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

All of your arguments are simply negations without positive counter positions. it is useless to engage in such dialogue because your half is absent.

When something doesn't look like a duck, waddle like a duck, or quack like a duck, a person is not required to make a claim about what it actually is in order to observe that it sure as hell ain't a fucking duck.

K.





The alternative may be that the person has difficulty in accepting any reality that does not conform to its metaphysical interests.

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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what a... - 3/3/2012 7:13:39 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML



quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

All of your arguments are simply negations without positive counter positions. it is useless to engage in such dialogue because your half is absent.

When something doesn't look like a duck, waddle like a duck, or quack like a duck, a person is not required to make a claim about what it actually is in order to observe that it sure as hell ain't a fucking duck.

K.





The alternative may be that the person has difficulty in accepting any reality that does not conform to its metaphysical interests.


A second thought which probably should have been my first thought: it is true that when one proclaims a thing is not a duck one is not required to say what the thing actually is. However, if one knows it is not a duck then one must have a conception of what a duck is, for how else would he know with such certitude that the thing is not a duck?

My original point stands. You criticize other's nonducks but are reticent in describing your own duck. You bring only negations to dialogue. As I have suggested to you elsewhere such empty contribution is boring. I wonder if you fear being criticized? Or does it give you a platform of imagined superiority? Well, I will not cast aspersions on duck watchers. Some of my best friends are fond of ducks. With orange sauce of course.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 3/3/2012 7:15:28 AM >

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RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what a... - 3/3/2012 7:13:56 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Nowhere did I say atoms are alive. Your extreme reductionism is ludicrous on its face. Life is an illusion? Is that your position?


No, his position is that God is hisself. The heckling and strawmen are defense mechanisms for said belief.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what a... - 3/3/2012 7:23:30 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Nowhere did I say atoms are alive. Your extreme reductionism is ludicrous on its face. Life is an illusion? Is that your position?


No, his position is that God is hisself. The heckling and strawmen are defense mechanisms for said belief.


You may be right, GS. I have seen him allude elsewhere with fondness to Eastern Spirituality. Perhaps he will share that with us. I also recall a video lecture he posted in which the lecturer began with a discussion of quantum mechanics and wound his torturous path to god is energy and is in all of us. Maybe we are all god if we are willing to accept a little new age QM mysticism. Oh, how the audience applauded when they realized they were all god!!!

< Message edited by vincentML -- 3/3/2012 7:26:06 AM >

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