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RE: Sterilize all woman getting abortions? Pro or Con... - 2/22/2012 4:19:31 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

I'm not on child support. I'm on A bill that would declare that personhood starts at conception.



Yes and at the end of the facts you presented, you went on elocution safari and ended with: "There is zero accountability for the sperm that made it all happen"

First off, just so we're clear; I'm sure you meant the producer of the sperm since sperm's only accountability is did it do its best to impregnate an egg.

What I am refuting is your contention that there isn't plenty of (legal) accountability for a man that fathers a child. I doubt you could find me a state where I could get a woman pregnant and walk away, saying: "It serves her right for being a slut (as has been suggested, here)" and not have a judgement for child support leveled against me. It won't happen.

That makes your statement irresponsible, at best; extremely prejudicial on the whole, and an out-right lie, at the worst. To say that men face no accountability for their actions is ridiculous.

Once women recognize that men do, indeed, bear responsibility, things will be a lot less contentious. Sure, there are dead-beat dads. But the law is on the side of trying to curtail that, as much as possible. They're failing miserably and that's a whole nother story.

I would have absolutely supported Rep. Williams' amendment. It is the "accountability" of a man that would rather not have his child aborted.

Peace and comfort,

Michael


The bill and I are talking about responsibility for the unborn. Child support is for children, who have been born.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: Sterilize all woman getting abortions? Pro or Con... - 2/22/2012 5:02:45 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance

The only flaw with that is to determine paternity when the child is in the womb is dangerous to the child... and any guy can say.. oh not mine i didnt fuck her...

it isnt until the babys born that it would be feasable...and then you have the same issues we have, with deadbeat dads who dont also pay child support


Actually, not true. Amniocentesis and CVS samples can be used to determine paternity. CVS can be done 10 weeks into a pregnancy and amnio isn't usually done until 16-22 weeks in. For those of you worried about complications of these "invasive" procedures (and there is a risk to the mother and the baby), they also have a "non-invasive" option. This is invasive enough to collect blood from the mother, but has no direct risks to the fetus or pregnancy, unlike amnio or CVS collection. It can be done as early as 13 weeks into the pregnancy.

http://www.dnaplus.com/fetal_cell_prenatal_paternity_test.htm

While all these things are great, there is still a wait time, so medical costs will have to be itemized to make sure the father pays his share.



Considering that one of the complications is miscarriage, yes I would be concerned about it. I can't see making someone do this just to determine the father.

I had never heard of the new procedure so I looked it up. http://www.dnaplus.com/fetal_cell_prenatal_paternity_test.htm and while it is totally safe for the baby the cost it a bit high.

Pricing

Standard Test - $1249 (includes up to three alleged fathers)

Price includes:

Paternity testing of fetus and up to three alleged fathers using buccal swab and/or hair samples
Additional alleged fathers will incur a fee of $150 each using buccal swab and/or hair samples
Forensic samples (e.g., toothbrush, water bottle, chewing gum, cigarette butt, etc.) will incur a fee of $75 per sample**
Coordination of mother's blood draw at a local collection facility (e.g., hospital)
Mother's blood draw and processing at local collection facility
Shipping of samples to our nearest lab via FedEx from inside the United States. International shipping will incur an additional fee according to current FedEx rates.

who is going to pay the bill for that one?

_____________________________

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This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: Sterilize all woman getting abortions? Pro or Con... - 2/22/2012 5:24:09 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		A woman who cant afford it will just have to go without
same way she has to pay for the probe test in virginia(if it passes)($400 Bucks) OR not

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(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Sterilize all woman getting abortions? Pro or Con... - 2/22/2012 5:26:48 AM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

the punishment should come in, IMO, if there is willful violation of support orders. Punishing a guy because he can't/won't keep his willy in his pants is ludicrous.


He's being punished for expecting our tax dollars to take care of his problem. Don't want to get your balls cut off? If he doesn't want that all he has to do is man up, and pay for his child without us needing to haul his pathetic ass to court.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 2/22/2012 5:28:12 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Sterilize all woman getting abortions? Pro or Con... - 2/22/2012 5:31:15 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		And money is no problem. We just go to "Presumption of Fatherhood", and it's YOUR JOB to prove the sperm weren't yours. Just like the government handles seizure cases...



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Sterilize all woman getting abortions? Pro or Con... - 2/22/2012 5:41:38 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

the punishment should come in, IMO, if there is willful violation of support orders. Punishing a guy because he can't/won't keep his willy in his pants is ludicrous.


He's being punished for expecting our tax dollars to take care of his problem. Don't want to get your balls cut off? If he doesn't want that all he has to do is man up, and pay for his child without us needing to haul his pathetic ass to court.


Is the mother also not going to be punished for expecting our tax dollars to take care of her "problem?"

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Sterilize all woman getting abortions? Pro or Con... - 2/22/2012 5:43:25 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		It's not her problem. It's the father's. All he had to do was keep track of his sperm and not be negligent. She couldn't have gotten pregnant if he didn't fuck her in the first place.

It's called "Personal Responsibility" And since he's such a stud that women can't resist his charms, he has an exceptional duty to pay special care to where his sperm are going.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Sterilize all woman getting abortions? Pro or Con... - 2/22/2012 5:44:41 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

Is the mother also not going to be punished for expecting our tax dollars to take care of her "problem?"


Are you referring to the myth of taxpayer funded abortion? Do we need a thread on this?

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Sterilize all woman getting abortions? Pro or Con... - 2/22/2012 5:47:11 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance

The only flaw with that is to determine paternity when the child is in the womb is dangerous to the child... and any guy can say.. oh not mine i didnt fuck her...

it isnt until the babys born that it would be feasable...and then you have the same issues we have, with deadbeat dads who dont also pay child support


Actually, not true. Amniocentesis and CVS samples can be used to determine paternity. CVS can be done 10 weeks into a pregnancy and amnio isn't usually done until 16-22 weeks in. For those of you worried about complications of these "invasive" procedures (and there is a risk to the mother and the baby), they also have a "non-invasive" option. This is invasive enough to collect blood from the mother, but has no direct risks to the fetus or pregnancy, unlike amnio or CVS collection. It can be done as early as 13 weeks into the pregnancy.

http://www.dnaplus.com/fetal_cell_prenatal_paternity_test.htm

While all these things are great, there is still a wait time, so medical costs will have to be itemized to make sure the father pays his share.



Considering that one of the complications is miscarriage, yes I would be concerned about it. I can't see making someone do this just to determine the father.

I had never heard of the new procedure so I looked it up. http://www.dnaplus.com/fetal_cell_prenatal_paternity_test.htm and while it is totally safe for the baby the cost it a bit high.

Pricing

Standard Test - $1249 (includes up to three alleged fathers)

Price includes:

Paternity testing of fetus and up to three alleged fathers using buccal swab and/or hair samples
Additional alleged fathers will incur a fee of $150 each using buccal swab and/or hair samples
Forensic samples (e.g., toothbrush, water bottle, chewing gum, cigarette butt, etc.) will incur a fee of $75 per sample**
Coordination of mother's blood draw at a local collection facility (e.g., hospital)
Mother's blood draw and processing at local collection facility
Shipping of samples to our nearest lab via FedEx from inside the United States. International shipping will incur an additional fee according to current FedEx rates.

who is going to pay the bill for that one?


If this is in court for determination of support, it would be included as part of the support, thus being the responsibility of both biological parents.

I find it deplorable that a woman would have enough sex partners to not know, within reason, who the father is. I also find it deplorable that a man would go 'round essentially spreading his seed every which way, with no regard for the women. If you're going to do that, at least have the courtesy of getting snipped first to prevent pregnancies.

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Sterilize all woman getting abortions? Pro or Con... - 2/22/2012 5:49:26 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

Is the mother also not going to be punished for expecting our tax dollars to take care of her "problem?"


Are you referring to the myth of taxpayer funded abortion? Do we need a thread on this?


I think the flaw in reasoning there is expecting the mother to be responsible for ANY of the expense or work associated with her gestating the baby.

If you're going to treat a woman as a brood-mare, then you're going to have to accept 100% of the responsibility for all the care and expense. Period. End of story. That's what happens when you go down the road of treating woman as if they're not responsible. Fine. So now the men are 100% responsible. And as a taxpayer, I insist that any man, before receiving any benefits, be sterilized to punish his irresponsibility.

It's what Jesus would have wanted, isn't it?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Sterilize all woman getting abortions? Pro or Con... - 2/22/2012 5:50:59 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

I find it deplorable that a woman would have enough sex partners to not know, within reason, who the father is.


Well, I don't know why anyone would dither about it. All she has to do is name the father, and unless he can prove otherwise it's 100% his responsibility.

And he better be able to fulfil those...

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Sterilize all woman getting abortions? Pro or Con... - 2/22/2012 6:01:18 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

I find it deplorable that a woman would have enough sex partners to not know, within reason, who the father is.


Is it women that have multiple sex partners that you find deplorable?

Or women with multiple sex partners that used contraception that failed?

Or women with multiple sex partners that do not use contraception?

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Sterilize all woman getting abortions? Pro or Con... - 2/22/2012 8:26:37 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
It's not her problem. It's the father's. All he had to do was keep track of his sperm and not be negligent. She couldn't have gotten pregnant if he didn't fuck her in the first place.

It's called "Personal Responsibility" And since he's such a stud that women can't resist his charms, he has an exceptional duty to pay special care to where his sperm are going.


Huh. Interesting. Women are not at all responsible for allowing a guy to stick his dick in her. I disagree with you. I submit that the woman is as responsible as the guy is in consensual sex situations. Non-consensual sex, is a totally different situation and should be dealt with accordingly.

Since it does take both of them to conceive, how is it possible that it's only the guy's fault (as opposed to both their faults)?

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Sterilize all woman getting abortions? Pro or Con... - 2/22/2012 8:28:38 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I find it deplorable that a woman would have enough sex partners to not know, within reason, who the father is.

Well, I don't know why anyone would dither about it. All she has to do is name the father, and unless he can prove otherwise it's 100% his responsibility.
And he better be able to fulfil those...


Guilty until proven innocent. One of the pillars of our judicial system. Oh, wait...

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Sterilize all woman getting abortions? Pro or Con... - 2/22/2012 8:29:44 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
quote:

I find it deplorable that a woman would have enough sex partners to not know, within reason, who the father is.

Is it women that have multiple sex partners that you find deplorable?
Or women with multiple sex partners that used contraception that failed?
Or women with multiple sex partners that do not use contraception?


Hmmmm...which of those options best matches what I said?

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Sterilize all woman getting abortions? Pro or Con... - 2/22/2012 8:30:09 AM   
SoftBonds


Posts: 862
Joined: 2/10/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I find it deplorable that a woman would have enough sex partners to not know, within reason, who the father is.

Well, I don't know why anyone would dither about it. All she has to do is name the father, and unless he can prove otherwise it's 100% his responsibility.
And he better be able to fulfil those...


Guilty until proven innocent. One of the pillars of our judicial system. Oh, wait...


Guilty until proven innocent, the system used in the ruling about reporting miscarriages...That you defended.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Sterilize all woman getting abortions? Pro or Con... - 2/22/2012 9:37:25 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
quote:

I find it deplorable that a woman would have enough sex partners to not know, within reason, who the father is.

Is it women that have multiple sex partners that you find deplorable?
Or women with multiple sex partners that used contraception that failed?
Or women with multiple sex partners that do not use contraception?


Hmmmm...which of those options best matches what I said?


I'm attempting to give you the benefit of the doubt but am beginning to find your lack of clarity (on multiple threads) very tiresome. So which is it?

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Sterilize all woman getting abortions? Pro or Con... - 2/22/2012 10:01:32 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
It's not her problem. It's the father's. All he had to do was keep track of his sperm and not be negligent. She couldn't have gotten pregnant if he didn't fuck her in the first place.

It's called "Personal Responsibility" And since he's such a stud that women can't resist his charms, he has an exceptional duty to pay special care to where his sperm are going.


Huh. Interesting. Women are not at all responsible for allowing a guy to stick his dick in her. I disagree with you. I submit that the woman is as responsible as the guy is in consensual sex situations. Non-consensual sex, is a totally different situation and should be dealt with accordingly.

Since it does take both of them to conceive, how is it possible that it's only the guy's fault (as opposed to both their faults)?


The guy should be dressed up so as to not entice woman, WHEN they are allowed out in public. It's not woman's fault they fall for those men who are so brazen to go out in public without be escorted by a senior family member -- especially if they're not covered up from head-to-toe like they're supposed to be.

He was asking for it. He got what he deserved.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 2/22/2012 10:02:33 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Sterilize all woman getting abortions? Pro or Con... - 2/22/2012 10:05:28 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Sterilize all woman getting abortions? Pro or Con... - 2/22/2012 11:36:08 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds
ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Guilty until proven innocent, the system used in the ruling about reporting miscarriages...That you defended.


Actually, SoftBonds, it's reporting of a possible crime that is what I defend in the GA Law thread. Plus, it wouldn't make health care professionals judge/jury/executioner. There would have to be some sort of investigation, tests, etc. to determine if the formerly pregnant woman had committed a crime (or had a crime committed against her or her fetus).

farglebargle (helluva name to pronounce clearly) has based judgment on the accusations of the mother. If that was all it took, how many women do you think would claim Kobe Bryant, Bill Gates, Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger (oops, scratch that one), etc. would come crawling out of the woodwork?

Officer Mahoney: "Ma'am. Who's the father of the baby?"
Preggo: "Bill Gates"
Officer Mahoney: "Bill Gates, ma'am?"
Preggo: "Yes. Bill Gates."
Officer Mahoney: "Okay, if you say so."
--Later that same day....
Officer Mahoney: "Mr. Gates? Hello, sir. I have here orders for you to pay 30% of your wealth to Mrs. X (names have been changed to protect the victims)"
Bill Gates: "Who? What? Wait a minute...is this the guy from the Apple Store downtown?"
Officer Mahoney: "Sorry, sir. This is Officer Mahoney, Miami/Dade County PD."
Bill Gates: "Miami/Dade County?!? What's this 30% of my wealth crap?"
Officer Mahoney: "It seems, sir, that you impregnated Mrs. X. She's had the baby. Congrat's sir, you are the proud papa of a healthy asian boy."
Bill Gates: "Mrs. X?!? I don't know no Mrs. X! I haven't been down to Florida in ages! And I have certainly not engaged in any sexual relations with any Asian women!"
Officer Mahoney: "Uh, sir. She's not Asian."
Bill Gates: "She's not Asian?!?!? How could I be the father of an Asian boy when neither the mother nor I are Asian?!?!?"
Officer Mahoney: "Sir, that thought had popped into our heads, too."
Bill Gates: "Then, how do you figure I'm the father?"
Officer Mahoney: "Well, sir. She said so."
Bill Gates: "What?!? She said so?!? And you believed her? All a woman has to do is point to a guy as the father and that's that?!?"
Officer Mahoney: "Yessir."
Bill Gates: --Click--
Officer Mahoney: "Mr. Gates? Mr. Gates? Are you still there, sir?..."

Now, THAT is justice.

(in reply to SoftBonds)
Profile   Post #: 140
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