RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages

RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (Full Version)

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DarkSteven -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 9:03:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Roe v. Wade was about abortion, not miscarriage. Right now, Doctors, Nurses, Teachers, DayCare workers, and probably others, are required by law to report any possible cases of child abuse. If there are signs of possible abuse and they don't report it, there are severe legal repercussions. This would, I assume, be a similar reporting requirement. The logic behind the bill is that the "crime" could have been an abortion, misrepresented as a miscarriage. Problem is that the crime of abortion is not a crime at all, per Roe vs Wade. From a legal POV, forcing reporting of miscarriages would be analogous to forcing doctors to report all cases of diabetes they see.

Edwynn -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 9:21:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Well, a federal law should include some language that if georgia does this each party to the event must have at least one solid tooth in their head and cannot share more than one parent. My grandfather was the artistic type. His everyday handwriting, which I have a good sample of, was art, and good art at that. Everything he put is nimble and deft fingers to was art, the nicest pen knife inscribed and color inked custom made personal birthday or anniversary cards I've ever seen, not that I've seen any others. His birth occurred in the year of Grant's re-election. After living in and eventually obtaining family of his own in several different states in the further west Midwest, the upper Midwest, the lower Midwest, and Florida, he wound up in southern Georgia, then not long after to Atlanta, were he ... Fu*king Stayed Put! Finally! He made all sorts of nifty little do dads and knick-knacks and small thin wire objets d'art and custom tie clips and lapel pins and, seeing but a few samples of his work, it wouldn't surprise me if he made custom paper clips, truly dazzling ones. This in addition to the specialized cards and one-off invitations, some of them in service to a practical joke of the purchaser, as he could perfectly replicate any official type or lettering by hand. He was granted kiosk privilege within the Georgia State Capitol, where he sold these items to many of the staff workers and more than a few lawmakers and their henchmen and a governor or two. The only sample of lapel pin I have from his efforts is a very small sword that fits perfectly snug in a very small scabbard of horizontally and perfectly wound gold plated wire, that having the clipping pin perfectly discreetly behind it. The hilt of the sword included a full basket guard, it being perfectly wound with even thinner wire, and a metal threaded tassel or lanyard attached. The sociocultural religious rondeau dancing-with-wombats recently performed by the esteemed (but now deceased, in December) Georgia State Representative From Hades County (or something close to that), Bobby Franklin, who first came to fame a year ago by accusing victims of being accusers and attempting to make it law, somehow brought to mind that most wonderfully made tiny sword and scabbard lapel pin, which was in fact so carefully and artfully rendered in that very same building where this political le sacre du footstomps is still taking place. Without any conscious effort or conjuring on my part, a picture of that tiny sword stuck into the forehead (only skin deep, relax folks) of each of the esteemed Representatives carrying the torch for this heroically counter-Renaissance effort came suddenly into my mind. Then I went to the drawer, opened it, looked at the lapel pin itself, and ... Only a very few things are sacred, just to me. This special item will forever remain that way, as I shall never again desecrate it by any further such thoughts as displayed above.

Lucylastic -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 9:22:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: Utah passed a similar bill, sponsored by Sen. Margaret Dayton, a Republican, into law in February of 2010 that allows women to be criminally charged if they cannot prove a miscarriage was accidental. Women could be legally held responsible for miscarriages caused by “reckless behavior.” Wow, I didn't realize we had a law like this and it's been around for 2 years already. How many women have they gone after so far? I am surprised we haven't read about the different cases already. Try this one back from june of last year http://www.collarchat.com/m_3740580/mpage_1/tm.htm

DesideriScuri -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 11:24:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u I just came off moderation,so all I'm going to do here is welcome you to the wonderful world of CollarMe....you should fit in nicely [:)] Please take a seat on the FAR-right of the auditorium [8\|] Thanks for the welcome. Don't care where in the auditorium I sit (with only provision) as I am not truly a partisan. My only seating provision is that it be next to the Constitution. In a nutshell: I fully believe the intention of the Founders was for a conservative interpretation of the US Constitution. So, all my arguments will stem from there. I fully believe Government owes We the People conservative fiscal policies. I am all for robust social welfare programs, but not through Government agencies; private agencies are much more efficient than bureaucracies. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri I have not made any direct comment against Medicare because of the un-Constitutionality, but I have made the comment that Government shouldn't pay for anyone's health insurance/care because it isn't in the Constitution. I accept that I referred to Medicare, but it is also more than just Medicare. ORIGINAL: SoftBonds Yeah, the government pays for VA medical care too! The difference, though, is that those the Government is providing medical care for have served our Country and would have given their lives to protect every one of us. In essence, it's more of an employer/employee program. I absolutely do fully support the Federal VA programs. The only question I have in regards to those programs is, "are they doing enough?" And I fully believe in a living,breathing document.Made purposefully vague so as to be elastic enough to serve future generations of Americans....checkmate [:)] Sorry, no checkmate. There is only one way to alter the Constitution. It is found within the Constitution. With the changing usage of words being allowed to change the meaning of the framework of our system of Federal Government, what's the point in having a Constitution in the first place? If we were to start using the word "welfare" to mean genocide, and kept at it for long enough, usage of the word would be corrupted from the current usage. At that point in time, our Constitution would allow for our Federal Government to commit genocide. While that is an obviously extreme hypothetical, it is, nevertheless, useful. Plus, we disagree that it is all that vague. It seems pretty specific with regards to what powers each branch has. Unless Madison, Jay and Hamilton lied through their teeth in the Federalist Papers, your belief is incorrect.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 11:29:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Roe v. Wade was about abortion, not miscarriage. Right now, Doctors, Nurses, Teachers, DayCare workers, and probably others, are required by law to report any possible cases of child abuse. If there are signs of possible abuse and they don't report it, there are severe legal repercussions. This would, I assume, be a similar reporting requirement. The logic behind the bill is that the "crime" could have been an abortion, misrepresented as a miscarriage. Problem is that the crime of abortion is not a crime at all, per Roe vs Wade. From a legal POV, forcing reporting of miscarriages would be analogous to forcing doctors to report all cases of diabetes they see. I would appreciate if you'd clarify your last statement. How is forcing miscarriage reporting analogous to forcing diabetes reporting?

slvemike4u -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 12:42:29 PM)
Sorry pal,no one advocated(least not me) changing the Constitution,what I said was that the document was intentionally vague . You make what you will of that,the Supreme Court has been doing so since the start....all of a sudden that isn't good enough because you don't like the way in which they have done so. Of course they are "reactionary" judges when you don't like the decisions eh ? Tough...this is how it is set up.

kalikshama -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 1:04:42 PM)
quote: I would appreciate if you'd clarify your last statement. How is forcing miscarriage reporting analogous to forcing diabetes reporting? Both violate patient privacy.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 7:21:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama quote: I would appreciate if you'd clarify your last statement. How is forcing miscarriage reporting analogous to forcing diabetes reporting? Both violate patient privacy. Do you honestly believe that someone getting diabetes is as potentially abusive as a woman having a miscarriage? Seriously? The requirement to report "questionable" miscarriages (though it may not be defined as such and could include all miscarriages) is almsot exactly the same as the requirement to report potential child abuse situations. If you're going to make comparisons, how about not making them so vague that the connection isn't so generic? A requirement to report all patient contact with a health provider would technically be the same, under your broad definition, even if it was simply to set an appointment or cancel an appointment.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 7:37:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Sorry pal,no one advocated(least not me) changing the Constitution,what I said was that the document was intentionally vague . You make what you will of that,the Supreme Court has been doing so since the start....all of a sudden that isn't good enough because you don't like the way in which they have done so. Of course they are "reactionary" judges when you don't like the decisions eh ? Tough...this is how it is set up. So, not going to actually address any of the points I made? You said it was intentionally vague. I disagreed. The point about the amendment process addressed your "living, breathing document...elastic enough..." comment. And, no, it was not written vaguely so it could stretch and change. There was a method of change put into the document. That is the only way to change it. There is no way they would have given a Federal Government as much power as ours has been using the past several decades (Hell, since the early 1900's). Jefferson: chain down the Federal Government with the Constitution (paraphrased) You don't chain something down with elastic material. The wording of the Constitution points towards limited and specific authorities. Plus, my position is not the one that is changing the way the Constitution applies.

DarkSteven -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 8:52:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama quote: I would appreciate if you'd clarify your last statement. How is forcing miscarriage reporting analogous to forcing diabetes reporting? Both violate patient privacy. Do you honestly believe that someone getting diabetes is as potentially abusive as a woman having a miscarriage? Seriously? The requirement to report "questionable" miscarriages (though it may not be defined as such and could include all miscarriages) is almsot exactly the same as the requirement to report potential child abuse situations. If you're going to make comparisons, how about not making them so vague that the connection isn't so generic? A requirement to report all patient contact with a health provider would technically be the same, under your broad definition, even if it was simply to set an appointment or cancel an appointment. Child abuse is a crime. Nationally. Per Roe vs Wade, abortion is not. Nationally. THAT is the difference.

tweakabelle -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 9:20:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Do you honestly believe that someone getting diabetes is as potentially abusive as a woman having a miscarriage? Seriously? The requirement to report "questionable" miscarriages (though it may not be defined as such and could include all miscarriages) is almsot exactly the same as the requirement to report potential child abuse situations. Excuse me! Having a miscarriage is "potentially abusive"???????? What twisted mind produced such a vile thought? Having a miscarriage is to be treated in the same manner as child-rape? What repulsive morality could even put the two in the same book, let alone the same page? What century are you living in? Are you seriously suggesting that it is reasonable that miscarriages are required, by law, to be reported to the authorities? Why? Is it a crime to miscarry? Since when is pregnancy a matter to be policed by the State? On what basis does the State regulate what happens in a woman's womb? If the State is going to police pregnancies, where does it stop? Why is it that the same people who throw tantrums at the merest hint of any Govt regulation of commerce, who are so quick to denounce any environmental regulation "Big Government", are so happy for the Government to poke its nose into pregnancies and to impose onerous regulations and laws onto women? The implication - that all miscarriages are "suspect" and therefore have to investigated, adjudicated and pronounced either "intentional" or "accidental" by some bureaucrat - is outrageous. This is a gross invasion of privacy, an assault on human rights, and a deliberate attack on the autonomy of women by demented ideologues who want to take us all back to the Dark Ages and reduce womens' status to that of domestic chattel, kitchen slaves, baby incubators and holes-to-insert-erect-cocks-into-for-male-pleasure-only. It displays open unqualified contempt for women - misogyny of worst, most vicious and destructive kind. Not even Saudi Arabia has laws like this. It will make the USA the laughing stock of the world, and a particular hell for American women, many of whom will live in dread of ever becoming pregnant. If you need a second opinion on precisely where you should stick this sick putrid sinister law and draconian morality, please feel free to ask me.

erieangel -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 9:52:33 PM)
quote: robust social welfare programs, but not through Government agencies; private agencies are much more efficient than bureaucracies. This makes no sense. I work for a private, non profit agency and there is bureaucracy aplenty at my agency. You don't want government providing food, health care or decent housing to the very poor, but you seem all in favor of state governments growing so big that they investigate the cause of a miscarriage??? I'm sorry, but I can't wrap my head around a worldview that places the unborn (and in this case, the never-to-be-born) as more important than the already living.

tazzygirl -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/22/2012 1:25:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama quote: I would appreciate if you'd clarify your last statement. How is forcing miscarriage reporting analogous to forcing diabetes reporting? Both violate patient privacy. Do you honestly believe that someone getting diabetes is as potentially abusive as a woman having a miscarriage? Seriously? The requirement to report "questionable" miscarriages (though it may not be defined as such and could include all miscarriages) is almsot exactly the same as the requirement to report potential child abuse situations. If you're going to make comparisons, how about not making them so vague that the connection isn't so generic? A requirement to report all patient contact with a health provider would technically be the same, under your broad definition, even if it was simply to set an appointment or cancel an appointment. Child abuse is a crime. Nationally. Per Roe vs Wade, abortion is not. Nationally. THAT is the difference. Not to mention the cause of a miscarriage may not be known. Many are idiopathic and can develop into idiopathic reoccurring spontaneous miscarriages. And what of those that occur before the woman ever realizes she was pregnant to begin with? It would be akin to explaining every bowel movement someone has and why. This also isnt the first go around for such a law. http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/01/13/virginia-proposal-to-require-women-report-all-miscarriages.htm

Edwynn -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/22/2012 2:17:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri The requirement to report "questionable" miscarriages (though it may not be defined as such and could include all miscarriages) is almsot exactly the same as the requirement to report potential child abuse situations. That would be considered such only as consequence of some abstruse religious based law, as enacted, considered "questionable" by their standards, not constitutional standards, and about as much a discrepancy from the intent of the Constitution as imaginable. quote: If you're going to make comparisons, how about not making them so vague that the connection isn't so generic? The Hypocritic Oath that all practicing doctors are bound to is indeed boring and quite generic. While on the subject; are we talking about a comparison, or who is being held to a long established standard? Or not? quote: A requirement to report all patient contact with a health provider would technically be the same, under your broad definition, even if it was simply to set an appointment or cancel an appointment. Her definition is a paradigm of collar-ratcheting restraint in comparison to the broadness and reach of the legislation under consideration. You claim to be in favor of limited government, even as you advocate for greater government intrusion in this matter. Ever think about that old adage regarding practicing what you preach? Or are we looking at the prototypical 'leave corporations alone, but intrude on personal lives to hearts content' brand of "small government" here?

DaddySatyr -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/22/2012 2:28:38 AM)
Just a fast reply: How the hell can enyone be expected to *prove* a negative? It flies in the face of why the burden of proof was put on prosecutors (the state). Women miscarry for all kinds of reasons and while there may be some link to certain behaviors leading to a miscarriage, do we really want to start prosecuting for that? Example: A woman gets pregnant on a Monday night (obviously, not between Sept. and Jan.) and goes out and gets rip-roaring drunk, two weeks later. She isn't late for her monthly curse, yet. She has no freakin' idea that she's pregnant. She miscarries and there's evidence to suggest that it was because of the alcohol. Now, the local prosecutor comes along and says: "We think that your binge killed your child. Prove it didn't.". This is insanity! I am one of the staunchest supporters of wiping out child abuse and while I support abortion always being legal, I think it's a curse on our society. leave that for now. An abortion is an action. It's someone *doing* something. Women miscarry (some of them) because they're just not good at carrying babies to term. This bill seems to pre-suppose that all miscarriages are of the non-spontaneous type and that the onus is on the defendant to prove otherwise. If this even gets to a floor vote in the state house, I'd be shocked (and suggest that Georgia needs to be invaded). Peace and comfort, Michael

GrandPoobah -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/22/2012 2:28:54 AM)
The interesting part of this proposal is that something like 40% (I'm not certain of the exact percentage, although I could probably go find it if it really mattered) of all fertilizations result in a "miss-carriage", most often without the women ever knowing she had a fertilized egg. Either the egg simply fails to implant, or the implant doesn't "take" or the egg is defective and spontaneously aborts. On that basis, you could probably charge every sexually active women with this crime, although the evidence might be real tough to identify. Also, the idea that a law provides only for an "affirmative defense" is unprecedented...and flies directly in the face of "innocent until proven guilty." The concept of affirmative defense means that you can defend yourself by showing that something wasn't possible...i.e. I was in New York at the time the crime occurred in California. The principle is most often used in cases where the defendant can show they acted reasonably, such as attacking someone who broke into your home. If you can demonstrate that you feared for your life, the fact that you killed the intruder could be considered justification for your actions. This is, in short, just another GOP attempt to force women back into second-class citizenship, a status that the Constitution doesn't support. GP

Toppingfrmbottom -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/22/2012 3:00:28 AM)
LAws and people in power or potential power like this are scary, like the polititian if elected promises to make birth control illegal. Or rick Sanatorium or however you spell his last name that wants to control what consenting adults do in their bedroom, because he believes stuff like gay sex erodes rights and morals of society. quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic And people complain about feminazis? This is sending womens rights back to the thirties. Im so very very disgusted.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/22/2012 3:01:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama quote: I would appreciate if you'd clarify your last statement. How is forcing miscarriage reporting analogous to forcing diabetes reporting? Both violate patient privacy. Do you honestly believe that someone getting diabetes is as potentially abusive as a woman having a miscarriage? Seriously? The requirement to report "questionable" miscarriages (though it may not be defined as such and could include all miscarriages) is almsot exactly the same as the requirement to report potential child abuse situations. If you're going to make comparisons, how about not making them so vague that the connection isn't so generic? A requirement to report all patient contact with a health provider would technically be the same, under your broad definition, even if it was simply to set an appointment or cancel an appointment. Child abuse is a crime. Nationally. Per Roe vs Wade, abortion is not. Nationally. THAT is the difference. We aren't talking about abortion. We are talking about actions taken against a person that result in a miscarriage. Willful attack on either the mother or the fetus in an attempt to cause miscarriage, or a willful attack on a pregnant mother that results in her having a miscarriage. In both of those instances, there is the assumption of having made the choice to carry the pregnancy to term. When someone chooses to get an abortion (and I do not agree with the bill if a non-naturally caused miscarriage includes choosing to terminate a pregnancy through abortion), there is the choice to terminate the pregnancy. A miscarriage is not an abortion.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/22/2012 3:18:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Do you honestly believe that someone getting diabetes is as potentially abusive as a woman having a miscarriage? Seriously? The requirement to report "questionable" miscarriages (though it may not be defined as such and could include all miscarriages) is almsot exactly the same as the requirement to report potential child abuse situations. Excuse me! Having a miscarriage is "potentially abusive"???????? What twisted mind produced such a vile thought? Having a miscarriage is to be treated in the same manner as child-rape? What repulsive morality could even put the two in the same book, let alone the same page? What century are you living in? Are you seriously suggesting that it is reasonable that miscarriages are required, by law, to be reported to the authorities? Why? Is it a crime to miscarry? Since when is pregnancy a matter to be policed by the State? On what basis does the State regulate what happens in a woman's womb? If the State is going to police pregnancies, where does it stop? Why is it that the same people who throw tantrums at the merest hint of any Govt regulation of commerce, who are so quick to denounce any environmental regulation "Big Government", are so happy for the Government to poke its nose into pregnancies and to impose onerous regulations and laws onto women? The implication - that all miscarriages are "suspect" and therefore have to investigated, adjudicated and pronounced either "intentional" or "accidental" by some bureaucrat - is outrageous. This is a gross invasion of privacy, an assault on human rights, and a deliberate attack on the autonomy of women by demented ideologues who want to take us all back to the Dark Ages and reduce womens' status to that of domestic chattel, kitchen slaves, baby incubators and holes-to-insert-erect-cocks-into-for-male-pleasure-only. It displays open unqualified contempt for women - misogyny of worst, most vicious and destructive kind. Not even Saudi Arabia has laws like this. It will make the USA the laughing stock of the world, and a particular hell for American women, many of whom will live in dread of ever becoming pregnant. If you need a second opinion on precisely where you should stick this sick putrid sinister law and draconian morality, please feel free to ask me. Hey, tweakabelle, thanks for twisting my words and not taking my thoughts into context! It does make for quite the entertaining reading! No one said all miscarriages are child abuse. I did say the requirement to report miscarriages in the law may include all miscarriages, and have said previously, that I do not agree that is correct. A woman having a miscarriage because of natural causes (that is, no direct, willful outside forces acted on the woman or fetus causing the miscarriage) should not be reported. However, if a woman knows she's pregnant, and willfully engages in activities with the intent to cause a miscarriage, should be reported, IMO. In those cases, I would have no issue with defining those actions as abuse. The onus to report would be on health care providers. This is who would initially make the initial decision as to whether or not the miscarriage was natural, or forced. Like the requirement to report potential child abuse, there should be procedures and processes in place to make further determinations. Thus, if a pediatrician sees things occurring to a child that could be abuse, he can require more tests to verify or refute the abuse. If the parent does not follow up with the prescribed procedures, or if the results of the procedures support a child abuse situation, that pediatrician has to follow the laws and report you. But, if the results of the procedure(s) do not indicate potential child abuse, the pediatrician is not required to report. So you see the difference?

kalikshama -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/22/2012 3:45:10 AM)
Virginia: Proposal to Require Women Report All Miscarriages In what many will perceive as a sign of the growing lunacy of the Christian Right, Delegate John Cosgrove has introduced a bill in Virginia that would require all women to report a miscarriage within 12 hours or risk 12 months in jail and a USD $2,500 fine. Lunacy? No, it's quite consistent and expected within the Christian Right's war on abortion. Daily Kos provides the details: Cosgrove's bill requires any woman who experiences "fetal death" without a doctor's assistance to report this to the local law-enforcement agency within twelve hours of the miscarriage. Failure to do so is punishable as a Class 1 Misdemeanor. ...Many may find such requirements to be bizarre, but in the world of the Christian Right they aren't. We have to remember that these people want to criminalize abortion. The only way to effectively do that, though, is to be able to differentiate between induced abortions and spontaneous miscarriages. A bill like this is an import step on the road to criminalizing abortion for a couple of reasons. First, it lays the legal groundwork for registering pregnancies and keeping track of which pregnancies end without a birth. Second it lays the conceptual ground work be getting people to accept the idea that the state has the authority to keep track of such matters. The loss of privacy comes in small stages, with this being just one of them. If Virginia is going to criminalize abortion, this will make their job much easier and I suspect that Cosgrove knows it. Lunacy? Not at all. It's dangerous and wrong, but it's not lunacy. It's exactly what we should expect. It's interesting that some have in the past offered such laws as logically necessary to the criminalization of abortion, implying that since such laws are unthinkable then criminalizing abortion wouldn't work. And who would support such invasive laws anyway? Truth can be stranger than fiction, though, and there aren't any laws so bizarre that the Christian Right won't endorse them if they may help them achieve their theocratic goals.

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