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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri


Do you honestly believe that someone getting diabetes is as potentially abusive as a woman having a miscarriage? Seriously? The requirement to report "questionable" miscarriages (though it may not be defined as such and could include all miscarriages) is almsot exactly the same as the requirement to report potential child abuse situations.

Excuse me! Having a miscarriage is "potentially abusive"???????? What twisted mind produced such a vile thought? Having a miscarriage is to be treated in the same manner as child-rape? What repulsive morality could even put the two in the same book, let alone the same page? What century are you living in?

Are you seriously suggesting that it is reasonable that miscarriages are required, by law, to be reported to the authorities? Why? Is it a crime to miscarry? Since when is pregnancy a matter to be policed by the State? On what basis does the State regulate what happens in a woman's womb?

If the State is going to police pregnancies, where does it stop? Why is it that the same people who throw tantrums at the merest hint of any Govt regulation of commerce, who are so quick to denounce any environmental regulation "Big Government", are so happy for the Government to poke its nose into pregnancies and to impose onerous regulations and laws onto women?

The implication - that all miscarriages are "suspect" and therefore have to investigated, adjudicated and pronounced either "intentional" or "accidental" by some bureaucrat - is outrageous. This is a gross invasion of privacy, an assault on human rights, and a deliberate attack on the autonomy of women by demented ideologues who want to take us all back to the Dark Ages and reduce womens' status to that of domestic chattel, kitchen slaves, baby incubators and holes-to-insert-erect-cocks-into-for-male-pleasure-only.

It displays open unqualified contempt for women - misogyny of worst, most vicious and destructive kind. Not even Saudi Arabia has laws like this. It will make the USA the laughing stock of the world, and a particular hell for American women, many of whom will live in dread of ever becoming pregnant.

If you need a second opinion on precisely where you should stick this sick putrid sinister law and draconian morality, please feel free to ask me.

Hey, tweakabelle, thanks for twisting my words and not taking my thoughts into context! It does make for quite the entertaining reading!

No one said all miscarriages are child abuse. I did say the requirement to report miscarriages in the law may include all miscarriages, and have said previously, that I do not agree that is correct. A woman having a miscarriage because of natural causes (that is, no direct, willful outside forces acted on the woman or fetus causing the miscarriage) should not be reported. However, if a woman knows she's pregnant, and willfully engages in activities with the intent to cause a miscarriage, should be reported, IMO. In those cases, I would have no issue with defining those actions as abuse.

The onus to report would be on health care providers. This is who would initially make the initial decision as to whether or not the miscarriage was natural, or forced. Like the requirement to report potential child abuse, there should be procedures and processes in place to make further determinations. Thus, if a pediatrician sees things occurring to a child that could be abuse, he can require more tests to verify or refute the abuse. If the parent does not follow up with the prescribed procedures, or if the results of the procedures support a child abuse situation, that pediatrician has to follow the laws and report you. But, if the results of the procedure(s) do not indicate potential child abuse, the pediatrician is not required to report.

So you see the difference?

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ORIGINAL: erieangel
This makes no sense. I work for a private, non profit agency and there is bureaucracy aplenty at my agency.

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You don't want government providing food, health care or decent housing to the very poor, but you seem all in favor of state governments growing so big that they investigate the cause of a miscarriage??? I'm sorry, but I can't wrap my head around a worldview that places the unborn (and in this case, the never-to-be-born) as more important than the already living.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri


Do you honestly believe that someone getting diabetes is as potentially abusive as a woman having a miscarriage? Seriously? The requirement to report "questionable" miscarriages (though it may not be defined as such and could include all miscarriages) is almsot exactly the same as the requirement to report potential child abuse situations.

Excuse me! Having a miscarriage is "potentially abusive"???????? What twisted mind produced such a vile thought? Having a miscarriage is to be treated in the same manner as child-rape? What repulsive morality could even put the two in the same book, let alone the same page? What century are you living in?

Are you seriously suggesting that it is reasonable that miscarriages are required, by law, to be reported to the authorities? Why? Is it a crime to miscarry? Since when is pregnancy a matter to be policed by the State? On what basis does the State regulate what happens in a woman's womb?

If the State is going to police pregnancies, where does it stop? Why is it that the same people who throw tantrums at the merest hint of any Govt regulation of commerce, who are so quick to denounce any environmental regulation "Big Government", are so happy for the Government to poke its nose into pregnancies and to impose onerous regulations and laws onto women?

The implication - that all miscarriages are "suspect" and therefore have to investigated, adjudicated and pronounced either "intentional" or "accidental" by some bureaucrat - is outrageous. This is a gross invasion of privacy, an assault on human rights, and a deliberate attack on the autonomy of women by demented ideologues who want to take us all back to the Dark Ages and reduce womens' status to that of domestic chattel, kitchen slaves, baby incubators and holes-to-insert-erect-cocks-into-for-male-pleasure-only.

It displays open unqualified contempt for women - misogyny of worst, most vicious and destructive kind. Not even Saudi Arabia has laws like this. It will make the USA the laughing stock of the world, and a particular hell for American women, many of whom will live in dread of ever becoming pregnant.

If you need a second opinion on precisely where you should stick this sick putrid sinister law and draconian morality, please feel free to ask me.

Hey, tweakabelle, thanks for twisting my words and not taking my thoughts into context! It does make for quite the entertaining reading!

No one said all miscarriages are child abuse. I did say the requirement to report miscarriages in the law may include all miscarriages, and have said previously, that I do not agree that is correct. A woman having a miscarriage because of natural causes (that is, no direct, willful outside forces acted on the woman or fetus causing the miscarriage) should not be reported. However, if a woman knows she's pregnant, and willfully engages in activities with the intent to cause a miscarriage, should be reported, IMO. In those cases, I would have no issue with defining those actions as abuse.

The onus to report would be on health care providers. This is who would initially make the initial decision as to whether or not the miscarriage was natural, or forced. Like the requirement to report potential child abuse, there should be procedures and processes in place to make further determinations. Thus, if a pediatrician sees things occurring to a child that could be abuse, he can require more tests to verify or refute the abuse. If the parent does not follow up with the prescribed procedures, or if the results of the procedures support a child abuse situation, that pediatrician has to follow the laws and report you. But, if the results of the procedure(s) do not indicate potential child abuse, the pediatrician is not required to report.

So you see the difference?

What do I see? I see an attempt by some very sick perverse lowlife sleaze bags to try to impose their sick perverse lowlife antiquated obsolete 'morality' on the world. I see smarmy responses like your posts that make me want to throw up.

Why shouldn't people who support putting miscarriages on the same level as child rape be regarded as sick twisted ideologically driven moral bankrupts with extremely unhealthy desires to police other peoples fertility and lives?

If anyone's behaviour needs regulating, it is that of the sickos who produce and defend this type of proposal. They are the ones in urgent need of medical intervention, they are the ones society needs to be protected from. There's no morality guiding their behaviour - only a prurience of most furtive, sickest kind and a need to control others that alternates between fundamentalism and megalomania.

Utterly and irredeemably contemptible. I would prefer to be in the company of bicycle seat sniffers than such a bunch of devious dishonest self-righteous moral vacuums.

You should be ashamed of yourself for even entertaining a thought of supporting such twisted morally-bankrupt Neanderthal behaviour. What on earth are you doing posting on a kink site?

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As a protection for the unborn, yes, I want to make sure they are safeguarded. Wrap your head around this: Causing a woman to miscarry, killing the fetus is a willful destruction of human life.

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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

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ORIGINAL: thishereboi

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Utah passed a similar bill, sponsored by Sen. Margaret Dayton, a Republican, into law in February of 2010 that allows women to be criminally charged if they cannot prove a miscarriage was accidental. Women could be legally held responsible for miscarriages caused by “reckless behavior.”

Wow, I didn't realize we had a law like this and it's been around for 2 years already. How many women have they gone after so far? I am surprised we haven't read about the different cases already.

Try this one back from june of last year

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3740580/mpage_1/tm.htm

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I am all for robust social welfare programs, but not through Government agencies; private agencies are much more efficient than bureaucracies.

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Your assigning to me the accusation that a miscarriage and child rape are equivalent is beyond me.

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It does make for laughable debate though.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

Hey, tweakabelle, thanks for twisting my words and not taking my thoughts into context! It does make for quite the entertaining reading!

However, if a woman knows she's pregnant, and willfully engages in activities with the intent to cause a miscarriage, should be reported, IMO. In those cases, I would have no issue with defining those actions as abuse.


So you see the difference?

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ORIGINAL: kalikshama

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As a protection for the unborn, yes, I want to make sure they are safeguarded. Wrap your head around this: Causing a woman to miscarry, killing the fetus is a willful destruction of human life.

I've been reading you throughout this thread and am still unclear - it sounds like you are talking about some random person coming up and punching a pregnant women in the stomach - the wrongness of which is not up for debate.

If not, what exactly do you mean by "causing the woman to miscarry?" Please be specific.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

We aren't talking about abortion. We are talking about actions taken against a person that result in a miscarriage. Willful attack on either the mother or the fetus in an attempt to cause miscarriage, or a willful attack on a pregnant mother that results in her having a miscarriage. In both of those instances, there is the assumption of having made the choice to carry the pregnancy to term.

When someone chooses to get an abortion (and I do not agree with the bill if a non-naturally caused miscarriage includes choosing to terminate a pregnancy through abortion), there is the choice to terminate the pregnancy. A miscarriage is not an abortion.

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ORIGINAL: kalikshama

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As a protection for the unborn, yes, I want to make sure they are safeguarded. Wrap your head around this: Causing a woman to miscarry, killing the fetus is a willful destruction of human life.

I've been reading you throughout this thread and am still unclear - it sounds like you are talking about some random person coming up and punching a pregnant women in the stomach - the wrongness of which is not up for debate.

If not, what exactly do you mean by "causing the woman to miscarry?" Please be specific.

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ORIGINAL: kalikshama

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As a protection for the unborn, yes, I want to make sure they are safeguarded. Wrap your head around this: Causing a woman to miscarry, killing the fetus is a willful destruction of human life.

I've been reading you throughout this thread and am still unclear - it sounds like you are talking about some random person coming up and punching a pregnant women in the stomach - the wrongness of which is not up for debate.

If not, what exactly do you mean by "causing the woman to miscarry?" Please be specific.

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ORIGINAL: SoftBonds
I don't see the difference.
Basically, what you just said is that if a woman can't afford an abortion, or there are no abortions providers available, or she is a minor and can't get parental permission, or the Right has otherwise made abortions too difficult to get... And she goes and does something to give herself an abortion...It is a crime!
In a perfect world, every abortion would be done by a doctor after appropriate medical testing and with appropriate medical care. This is not a perfect world. Folks are out shooting abortion doctors. Folks picket in front of abortion clinics.

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ORIGINAL: xssve

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

We aren't talking about abortion. We are talking about actions taken against a person that result in a miscarriage. Willful attack on either the mother or the fetus in an attempt to cause miscarriage, or a willful attack on a pregnant mother that results in her having a miscarriage. In both of those instances, there is the assumption of having made the choice to carry the pregnancy to term.

When someone chooses to get an abortion (and I do not agree with the bill if a non-naturally caused miscarriage includes choosing to terminate a pregnancy through abortion), there is the choice to terminate the pregnancy. A miscarriage is not an abortion.

Uh, a willful miscarriage is called abortion.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Your assigning to me the accusation that a miscarriage and child rape are equivalent is beyond me.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

I will leave the conditions to your own mind. If someone does something to a pregnant mother that causes her to miscarry (even if the action wasn't intended to cause miscarriage) without the mother's consent, that should be considered illegal. In this case, the desire to terminate the pregnancy was not made by the mother. The mother has decided to carry the baby to term. Baby Daddy gets pissed and punches her, and that causes her to miscarry? Crime. Someone hits the mother while she's driving and it results in a miscarriage? Crime (though in cases where the other person had no knowledge of the woman's pregnancy, the offense would not be as stiff). Mother goes and gets amniocentesis and it results in a miscarriage? No crime. Woman goes and gets an abortion? No crime.

I am for women having the option of getting abortions, so, much of your argument is void. People have every right to picket abortion clinics, provided they do not infringe on property rights. Those that kill abortion doctors (or those who kill the picketers, or Right to Lifers, or Free Choicers, etc.) are criminals and should be prosecuted according to the law. Crowds that include those who spit on the women choosing to get abortions should be dispersed, unless the spitter can be identified and have whatever statutes used against him/her.

I support a woman's right to choose. I also support a woman taking the responsibility for her choices. I support males taking responsibility for the choices they make (including sticking a dick in a woman and knocking her up).

I do not support a woman's right to choose where someone else (ie. taxpayers) have to take the responsibility for her choice. We have laws. They need to be applied correctly, or they need to be struck from the code.

I don't see how you can disagree with that.

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However, if a woman knows she's pregnant, and willfully engages in activities with the intent to cause a miscarriage, should be reported, IMO. In those cases, I would have no issue with defining those actions as abuse.

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ORIGINAL: SoftBonds
What I disagreed with was below:

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However, if a woman knows she's pregnant, and willfully engages in activities with the intent to cause a miscarriage, should be reported, IMO. In those cases, I would have no issue with defining those actions as abuse.

So which is it. Is a woman who knows she is pregnant willfully engaging in activities with the intent to cause a miscarriage (your words) an abuser, or getting a self provided abortion?
Pick one.

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ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Virginia: Proposal to Require Women Report All Miscarriages

In what many will perceive as a sign of the growing lunacy of the Christian Right, Delegate John Cosgrove has introduced a bill in Virginia that would require all women to report a miscarriage within 12 hours or risk 12 months in jail and a USD $2,500 fine. Lunacy? No, it's quite consistent and expected within the Christian Right's war on abortion.

Daily Kos provides the details:
Cosgrove's bill requires any woman who experiences "fetal death" without a doctor's assistance to report this to the local law-enforcement agency within twelve hours of the miscarriage. Failure to do so is punishable as a Class 1 Misdemeanor.

...Many may find such requirements to be bizarre, but in the world of the Christian Right they aren't. We have to remember that these people want to criminalize abortion. The only way to effectively do that, though, is to be able to differentiate between induced abortions and spontaneous miscarriages. A bill like this is an import step on the road to criminalizing abortion for a couple of reasons.

First, it lays the legal groundwork for registering pregnancies and keeping track of which pregnancies end without a birth. Second it lays the conceptual ground work be getting people to accept the idea that the state has the authority to keep track of such matters. The loss of privacy comes in small stages, with this being just one of them. If Virginia is going to criminalize abortion, this will make their job much easier and I suspect that Cosgrove knows it.

Lunacy? Not at all. It's dangerous and wrong, but it's not lunacy. It's exactly what we should expect. It's interesting that some have in the past offered such laws as logically necessary to the criminalization of abortion, implying that since such laws are unthinkable then criminalizing abortion wouldn't work. And who would support such invasive laws anyway? Truth can be stranger than fiction, though, and there aren't any laws so bizarre that the Christian Right won't endorse them if they may help them achieve their theocratic goals.

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No one said all miscarriages are child abuse. I did say the requirement to report miscarriages in the law may include all miscarriages, and have said previously, that I do not agree that is correct. A woman having a miscarriage because of natural causes (that is, no direct, willful outside forces acted on the woman or fetus causing the miscarriage) should not be reported. However, if a woman knows she's pregnant, and willfully engages in activities with the intent to cause a miscarriage, should be reported, IMO. In those cases, I would have no issue with defining those actions as abuse.

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As a protection for the unborn, yes, I want to make sure they are safeguarded. Wrap your head around this: Causing a woman to miscarry, killing the fetus is a willful destruction of human life. A child not having Government feed, clothe, house and provide health care is not willful destruction of human life. Add into it that it isn't that I don't want a child to be fed, receive health care, have decent housing or to be clothed. It's that I don't believe it is Government's authority or responsible to provide those things.