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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 12:33:41 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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Taken on its own, the shoelace punishment seems excessive. But when I put in the context of what this school is trying to do, the demographic that they target, and the apparent successes that they achieve longer term, the school is clearly doing something right. If I could have every child who lives in a tough, poor neighborhood attend such a school, it would tremendously increase their chance of both staying alive and actually becoming successful. If discipline is what is required to make that happen, then maybe that's just what needs to happen. One can't argue with the results this school seems to be getting.

While I also agree that the things that the students are asked to stay focused on (things like dress code, etc.) may, or may not, be applicable to working adults, the overall issue is still that the school is trying to teach discipline and responsibility. And the only way to do that with students is to focus on things that are within their control. And how they dress, how they present themselves to the world, would be something that I feel they have control over, and so I think it is fine to place some responsibility on their shoulders for that. Learning how to be disciplined about this, will teach them the concept of discipline overall. Which can then be applied in different ways when they are older. The point is not to teach them to keep their laces tied. The point is to teach them about discipline and responsibility. And I think at a school, it is necessarily going to boil down to things like dress code, behavior in class/hallways, use of electronics, etc. It has been shown that making students responsible for things like that, then carries over into discipline and responsibility around academics.

If I were a parent in a poor, tough neighborhood, and this gave my child a shot at a ticket out, I would take it in a heartbeat. And the fact that my child had to be extra-careful about the way they dress, seems a small price to pay in the grand scheme of things, where the alternative might be dropping out of school to deal drugs and die a violent death.

< Message edited by fucktoyprincess -- 2/21/2012 12:35:13 PM >

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 12:33:57 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I find it more disturbing that a student gets a demerit for 'failing to track the teacher with their eyes'.. really? One teacher, 20+ .. how the hell is the teacher going to be able to tell if 20 different people are looking when teacher is supposed to actually be teaching.



I read that as a one-on-one thing. Instead of looking the teacher in the face when they are being spoken to they are rolling their eyes, looking at the walls, staring at the floor.

I do not know for sure, I am just . . . what is the phrase. . . throwing spitballs?

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 12:36:13 PM   
kalikshama


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Status: offline 		Boot camp is all about learning how to follow stupid rules or suffer the consequences. I am a far better employee for having spent 4 years in the military.

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 12:41:30 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


I read that as a one-on-one thing. Instead of looking the teacher in the face when they are being spoken to they are rolling their eyes, looking at the walls, staring at the floor.

I do not know for sure, I am just . . . what is the phrase. . . throwing spitballs?

Ah, could very well be true. That's what I enjoy about interacting with others. I don't have to depend on my own simple brain to see all the angles. I hope that's true. It would certainly make more sense than trying to have eyes in the back of your head.

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 12:44:51 PM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

http://news.yahoo.com/chicago-school-draws-scrutiny-over-student-fines-202924231.html#

Why would any parent want to send their kid to a school like this?


If I remember correctly, you are the same person that has created multiple 'poor me' threads with loads of excuses as to why you couldn't succeed at something or other. Always excuses.

Also, if I remember correctly, you have no children. Especially of the age that can be difficult at best.

Given those two things, I am not surprised that you just do not GET the goal of this school.

From what I've read it's about taking young people that are used to making excuses for why they cannot succeed and teaching them personal responsibility.....something that is severely lacking in today society.

Their methods may be a bit outside of the box but apparently they are working.

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 12:45:08 PM   
Edwynn


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Joined: 10/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I find it more disturbing that a student gets a demerit for 'failing to track the teacher with their eyes'.. really?



Yeah, that one was a red flag for me too. I went to a parochial school decades ago and there were no ongoing discipline problems and only irregular disciplinary incidents, and I was not the trouble maker sort in any case, but ... I would have gotten 20 demerits a day for that one no matter how hard I tried to avoid it. I was constitutionally incapable of not staring out the window or staring into space sometimes, even as I was still listening. That is clearly not in the category of discipline, and unlike the tidy shirt and shoes, nothing to do with the real world. Looking when spoken to? Yes. Tracking? Never heard of that in school or on any job.



quote:


I'm not surprised such a thing is a demerit though since the Discipline guy's salary is paid for out of the fines collected. Can't get paid if you can't find fault and collect the milk money. At best it's a conflict of interest.




And that's a shame, because I see the value that this school and the academics and the disciplined environment provide for the intended student population. But I think that with money coming into the equation of discipline, the process is bound to be skewed. This is a bad precedent. Once one or two other schools get the same idea, and being that so many school systems are suffering financially in these times, I see a bad turn down the road.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 2/21/2012 12:58:54 PM >

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 12:49:20 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I find it more disturbing that a student gets a demerit for 'failing to track the teacher with their eyes'.. really? One teacher, 20+ .. how the hell is the teacher going to be able to tell if 20 different people are looking when teacher is supposed to actually be teaching.



I read that as a one-on-one thing. Instead of looking the teacher in the face when they are being spoken to they are rolling their eyes, looking at the walls, staring at the floor.




I read "tracking" as "tracking," meaning following teacher's eyes as they look around the room or walk across the front of the class.





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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 12:52:59 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		These better be some good lookin fuckin teachers.......cuz even texting all day is more fun.

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 1:01:22 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		My brother has an neurological reason for his inability to track...his academic career would have been less painful had he been diagnosed earlier.

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 1:11:33 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn



quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I find it more disturbing that a student gets a demerit for 'failing to track the teacher with their eyes'.. really? One teacher, 20+ .. how the hell is the teacher going to be able to tell if 20 different people are looking when teacher is supposed to actually be teaching.



I read that as a one-on-one thing. Instead of looking the teacher in the face when they are being spoken to they are rolling their eyes, looking at the walls, staring at the floor.




I read "tracking" as "tracking," meaning following teacher's eyes as they look around the room or walk across the front of the class.







My 4 year old, Butterhead, has terrible eye-contact. It leads to other issues. Which is why this seems that it would be am eye-contact issue.

_____________________________

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I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 1:12:56 PM   
Aylee


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Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Boot camp is all about learning how to follow stupid rules or suffer the consequences. I am a far better employee for having spent 4 years in the military.

I wish I could have sent my slacker 20-something minions to boot camp.


Same here. The company owner is ex-navy and I am ex-army.

I would dearly love to send the minions to boot camp. And their wives as well.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 1:16:50 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		Boot camp for wives! I love it :)

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 1:19:28 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Boot camp is all about learning how to follow stupid rules or suffer the consequences. I am a far better employee for having spent 4 years in the military.

I wish I could have sent my slacker 20-something minions to boot camp.


Same here. The company owner is ex-navy and I am ex-army.

I would dearly love to send the minions to boot camp. And their wives as well.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUc62jD-G0o

I believe R. Lee Ermey has a business consulting company.

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 1:24:03 PM   
LaTigresse


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Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Boot camp for wives! I love it :)


I would dearly love to send my son's ex and one of my employee's current wife. As well as the employee....

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 1:35:19 PM   
defiantbadgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse


quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

http://news.yahoo.com/chicago-school-draws-scrutiny-over-student-fines-202924231.html#

Why would any parent want to send their kid to a school like this?


If I remember correctly, you are the same person that has created multiple 'poor me' threads with loads of excuses as to why you couldn't succeed at something or other. Always excuses.

Also, if I remember correctly, you have no children. Especially of the age that can be difficult at best.

Given those two things, I am not surprised that you just do not GET the goal of this school.

From what I've read it's about taking young people that are used to making excuses for why they cannot succeed and teaching them personal responsibility.....something that is severely lacking in today society.

Their methods may be a bit outside of the box but apparently they are working.


You really get off on personal attacks don't you? Of course children should learn to accept responsibility for deliberately breaking rules. But shoelaces coming untied and buttons popping open are not deliberate acts of defiance. It's something that happens when clothes are worn throughout the day. This school is making students look like juvenile delinquents on their school records over shoelaces and buttons! If the government wanted to make untied shoelaces illegal and punishable by fine, would you be in favor of that? What about making miscarriages illegal? Would you be in favor of that too? After all, women should accept responsibility for their bodies right?

< Message edited by defiantbadgirl -- 2/21/2012 1:39:38 PM >

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 1:37:19 PM   
SoftBonds


Posts: 862
Joined: 2/10/2012
Status: offline 		In boot camp, you need to make sure you fold your T-shirts into a 6 inch by 6 inch square. It needs to be so many inches from the underwear you have folded into a 4x4 square, next to the socks you ironed to get them folded to the exactly correct dimensions. Then the Gunny comes in with a ruler and dings you for every 1/4 inch (or less) you are off.
Do I fold my clothes that way now? Heck no, haven't since I got out. But I learned about discipline, attention to detail, and teamwork ("I'll shine your shoes if you can fold my shirt").
I also remember how pissed one of our guys was when the DI came down on him for having the best score in the inspection. Two of his roommates didn't pass, and Gunny's point was that if he had time to get such a high score, he had time to help his buddies. Actually, he didn't do a lick of work, he was just really good at figuring out who did what best, and whining until they took care of him. I don't think he lasted in the service...

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 1:39:27 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse


quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

http://news.yahoo.com/chicago-school-draws-scrutiny-over-student-fines-202924231.html#

Why would any parent want to send their kid to a school like this?


If I remember correctly, you are the same person that has created multiple 'poor me' threads with loads of excuses as to why you couldn't succeed at something or other. Always excuses.

Also, if I remember correctly, you have no children. Especially of the age that can be difficult at best.

Given those two things, I am not surprised that you just do not GET the goal of this school.

From what I've read it's about taking young people that are used to making excuses for why they cannot succeed and teaching them personal responsibility.....something that is severely lacking in today society.

Their methods may be a bit outside of the box but apparently they are working.


You really get off on personal attacks don't you? Of course children should learn to accept responsibility for deliberately breaking rules. But shoelaces coming untied and buttons popping open are not deliberate acts of defiance. It's something that happens when clothes are worn throughout the day. This school is making students look like juvenile delinquents on their school records over shoelaces and buttons! If the government wanted to make untied shoelaces illegal and punishable by fine, would you be in favor of that? What about making miscarriages illegal? Would you be in favor of that too?


Pull your head out of your ass. These kids probably are or are on the path to, being juvenile delinquents. Seriously, the shit you write does not do you any favours. Not a one.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 1:43:59 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds

Actually, he didn't do a lick of work, he was just really good at figuring out who did what best, and whining until they took care of him. I don't think he lasted in the service...

Wanna bet he works on Wall Street now?

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 1:48:56 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		It's not about the shoelaces, anymore than boot camp is about learning how to make hospital corners on bed sheets. It's about installing discipline and attention to detail.

I can't remember ever having shoelaces come untied four times within two weeks, the amount necessary to earn a detention and fine.

quote:

Students at Noble schools receive demerits for various infractions — four for having a cellphone or one for untied shoelaces. Four demerits within a two-week period earn them a detention and $5 fine. Students who get 12 detentions in a year must attend a summer behavior class that costs $140.

Superintendent Michael Milkie said the policy teaches the kids — overwhelmingly poor, minority and often hoping to be the first in their families to attend college — to follow rules and procedures in a structured learning environment. He points to the network's average ACT score of 20.3, which is higher than at the city's other non-selective public schools, and says more than 90 percent of Noble graduates enroll in college.

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 1:52:12 PM   
tj444


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Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AttitudyJudy
There's a part of me that also questions having monetary fines.....but on the other hand, a strict consequence like losing $5 would have a much greater impact than some "easy" punishment like sitting in detention with their friends or emptying trash. Personally, if I knew I could get away with something if all I had to do was empty the wastebaskets if I got caught, I'd be taking ones for the team all the time, lol. But hit me in my purse, then you can bet I'm going to start checking my shoelaces and buttons after I sit down at my desk after recess.

It doesnt sound like the cash comes from the kids tho, i would think it mostly or always comes from the parents.. so in that respect it would be easier to hand mommy/daddy a bill from the school than to be on clean up detail in the bathrooms or whatever.. That is apparently why some parents took their kids out of that school, cuz it was costing them (the parents, not the kids) too much..

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