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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 2:04:40 PM   
kalikshama


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Status: offline 		From the comments:

quote:

It's a charter school. They chose to go there. Follow the rules or pay the fines, or go to another school. Education is the focus, and if this school can get them into college, they'll look back on their time there and thank their lucky stars. The discipline and the attention to detail they learn there will serve them very well in college and later on in life.

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 2:08:49 PM   
defiantbadgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Pull your head out of your ass. These kids probably are or are on the path to, being juvenile delinquents. Seriously, the shit you write does not do you any favours. Not a one.


Students are delinquents or on their way to becoming delinquents just because their shoes come untied or buttons pop open and someone else notices before they do? And you think I need to pull my head out of my ass? In answer to your question yes I know what the school's goal is. If fines and detentions were only given for deliberately breaking rules, I would think the school had good intentions. Since fines are given over shoelaces and buttons, I think the goal is big bonuses for administrative fat cats.


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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 2:13:24 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		In this day and age of the "experts" walking around, wringing their hands, not knowing what the answer to failing schools might be, it's nice to see a school that seems to be succeeding.

As has been pointed out: attendance at this school is voluntary (and I'll bet they're turning students away, too). Sure, the students, themselves might not have that much choice but their parents sure do.

I get all up in arms when some asshole politician claims that I need to pay my fair share of taxes. I pay my fair share and the fair share of a couple of other people (based on averages) but, I am glad to see that, occasionally, my tax dollars go for something that is good and that actually works.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 2/21/2012 2:26:37 PM >

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 2:15:40 PM   
AttitudyJudy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I find it more disturbing that a student gets a demerit for 'failing to track the teacher with their eyes'.. really? One teacher, 20+ .. how the hell is the teacher going to be able to tell if 20 different people are looking when teacher is supposed to actually be teaching.



I read that as a one-on-one thing. Instead of looking the teacher in the face when they are being spoken to they are rolling their eyes, looking at the walls, staring at the floor.

I do not know for sure, I am just . . . what is the phrase. . . throwing spitballs?


I agree here, I think that article worded it poorly with the use of the word "track". I also believe they just meant, are the students looking at the teacher when he/she is up front teaching, or are they looking out the window or trying to catch someone else's attention, etc. And some defiant kids will deliberately look away when being spoken to just to be defiant.

As far as hitting the parents' wallets, well, maybe that helps get the parents involved at home instead of relying on the schools to do their parenting for them. Maybe teach little Johnny how to tie his shoestrings extra tight or with a double-knot to keep them from coming untied. Or, take away some of Johnny's privileges at home if he is gathering fines at school. Or, take the fine money out of his allowance.



< Message edited by AttitudyJudy -- 2/21/2012 2:27:50 PM >

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 2:28:06 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		For those who compared this school to boot camp, service men and women are getting paid to be treated like shit. If the school had good intentions, they would only punish defiant students who deliberately broke the rules. Punishing over shoelaces and buttons proves their only goal is big bonuses for their fat cat administrators.

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 2:28:50 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Taken on its own, the shoelace punishment seems excessive. But when I put in the context of what this school is trying to do, the demographic that they target, and the apparent successes that they achieve longer term, the school is clearly doing something right. If I could have every child who lives in a tough, poor neighborhood attend such a school, it would tremendously increase their chance of both staying alive and actually becoming successful. If discipline is what is required to make that happen, then maybe that's just what needs to happen. One can't argue with the results this school seems to be getting.


Beautiful. I LOVE the approach of looking at results and than at the practices that produce them. DBG, by looking solely at things that you do and don't like, and then picking and choosing, you are overlooking the effect of the whole.

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 2:30:24 PM   
AttitudyJudy


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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 3:04:53 PM   
defiantbadgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I LOVE the approach of looking at results and than at the practices that produce them. DBG, by looking solely at things that you do and don't like, and then picking and choosing, you are overlooking the effect of the whole.


I'm thinking about possible psychological consequences of punishing over stupid things that don't involve defiance or deliberate rule breaking. I'm reminded of ignorant parents punishing children when they accidentally spill a glass of milk.


_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 3:15:23 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		It sounds pretty good to me given the facts that those who attend are most likely inner city poor children who, if they were not enrolled there, would be in gangs and taking part in the violence of the streets.

By fining the children the children learn discipline and that life can be just like that in real life...nitpicky and strict. And eventually the parents teach their kids to straighten up and those who don't are the ones who will end up right back on the streets of the inner city public schools.



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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 3:16:11 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

I'm thinking about possible psychological consequences of punishing over stupid things that don't involve defiance or deliberate rule breaking. I'm reminded of ignorant parents punishing children when they accidentally spill a glass of milk.



Um. As someone who has known several people who were legitimately damaged by punishments, I can assure you that fining a school age kid a few bucks was never the trigger as much as horrific abuse. Longlasting psychoses won't be a problem here. That said, if we take the school administrator at his word when he claimed that fights were almost nonexistent at his school, I would argue that the psychological consequences of getting the shit beaten out of you would outweigh those of being fined for loose shoelaces.

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 3:20:02 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
I LOVE the approach of looking at results and than at the practices that produce them. DBG, by looking solely at things that you do and don't like, and then picking and choosing, you are overlooking the effect of the whole.


I'm thinking about possible psychological consequences of punishing over stupid things that don't involve defiance or deliberate rule breaking. I'm reminded of ignorant parents punishing children when they accidentally spill a glass of milk.

I wonder where individuality comes in, if it does at all.. If I had a kid I would teach the kid to think for him/her self, teach them to question things that need questioning (including what goes on at school, the workplace, etc),.. teach them to learn to carefully make their own decisions and to realize there are consequences, then live with them, good or bad..

JMO.. One side of this education is that kids arent allowed to think, they must just follow the rules like robots.. they risk becoming the ass kissers of the world, both at work and off.. and ass kissers dont tend to stand up when wrong is being done.. That makes me cringe for some reason.. again, jmo..

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 3:26:27 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

I'm thinking about possible psychological consequences of punishing over stupid things that don't involve defiance or deliberate rule breaking. I'm reminded of ignorant parents punishing children when they accidentally spill a glass of milk.



What is wrong with "punishing" or disciplining a child (of an appropriate age - not a baby) if they accidentally spill a glass of milk? The issue would actually be what constitutes appropriate punishment. If a parent came to me and said they beat their child to a pulp for spilling milk, yes, I would have an issue with that. If the parent came to me and said they gave the child a washcloth made the child clean up the mess themselves, asked the child to apologize for not being more careful, and then gave the child a hug, I would say they were being a terrific parent. Being physically careless with their bodies is one way that children get physically hurt. Teaching a child to pay attention to where their body is relative to other things (potentially dangerous things, like a stove), is actually a hugely helpful thing to a child. A child cannot be allowed to just move through space without being aware of their body relative to other things. They will get hurt if they do that. So they need to pay attention to what they do with arms, hands, legs, feet because those appendages can knock things down. Milk won't hurt them - but other things could. They need to learn to be careful. And if it is a teenager, they certainly should be held responsible for cleaning up their own mess. At that age, they ought to know not to rely on others to clean up their messes.

I am not sure what you think "punishment" is, but most normal parents are able to discipline in standard ways that do no psychologically damage their children. I think it is wrong to assume that discipline is psychologically damaging. Speak to any child psychologist and they will tell you exactly the opposite. It is lack of discipline that is actually psychologically damaging to a child.


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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 3:29:33 PM   
farglebargle


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Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:


What is wrong with "punishing" or disciplining a child (of an appropriate age - not a baby) if they accidentally spill a glass of milk?


Do you usually punish people for ACCIDENTS? Are we using the same definition for the word accident?

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 3:35:40 PM   
tj444


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Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


What is wrong with "punishing" or disciplining a child (of an appropriate age - not a baby) if they accidentally spill a glass of milk?


Do you usually punish people for ACCIDENTS? Are we using the same definition for the word accident?

gawd,.. glad my parents didnt punish me for spilled milk.. I grew up on a dairy farm and there were lots of milk spills..

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 3:35:53 PM   
SoftBonds


Posts: 862
Joined: 2/10/2012
Status: offline 		Fargle, read her whole post...
She pointed out that the objective in "punishing," clumsiness by making the kid clean it up is to teach situational awareness. Better that punishment than the punishment for walking into a busy street with eyes closed and ipod on at full volume...

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 3:39:14 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I wonder where individuality comes in, if it does at all.. If I had a kid I would teach the kid to think for him/her self, teach them to question things that need questioning (including what goes on at school, the workplace, etc),.. teach them to learn to carefully make their own decisions and to realize there are consequences, then live with them, good or bad..

JMO.. One side of this education is that kids arent allowed to think, they must just follow the rules like robots.. they risk becoming the ass kissers of the world, both at work and off.. and ass kissers dont tend to stand up when wrong is being done.. That makes me cringe for some reason.. again, jmo..


Well in all fairness to this school, the article didn't really discuss the academic methods the school was using. But given the school's success rate at college placement, I think it is fair to assume that the kids are being taught to think and question in an intellectual way. I do not see that as having anything to do with the level of overall discipline that the school has.

Having been on a movie set before (as on observer only), I will say this. Individuality is great. But when you are on set, you expect people to show up on time, with their lines learned, to be dressed in their costume, to follow directions with great specificity, not challenge authority in an obstructive way (because there simply isn't the time) and work cooperatively to get the job done. Being in a creative industry or profession does not mean you get to call all the shots however you feel. There is a huge difference between being an ass kisser and being disciplined. The people I know who are not disciplined in their lives tend to fail repeatedly at the things they choose to do in life. The people I know who are individuals or mavericks who are also disciplined are tremendously successful in whatever they've chosen to do. Being undisciplined in anything that one does is generally not a good thing. And discipline has nothing to do with either creativity or individuality.


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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 3:42:09 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds

Fargle, read her whole post...
She pointed out that the objective in "punishing," clumsiness by making the kid clean it up is to teach situational awareness. Better that punishment than the punishment for walking into a busy street with eyes closed and ipod on at full volume...

I am a bit of a klutz but i do consider myself pretty situationally aware (I look both ways before crossing the street) but accidents will still happen, you cant eliminate them entirely.. I just accidentally knocked over the salad dressing bottle and yes, there was a mess.. I can try my best to be as careful as i want but realistically, its happened before and I cant say it wont happen again at some point..

eta- I dont think teaching a kid to look both ways before crossing the street is the same thing as clumsiness tho.. I think its just teaching common sense..

< Message edited by tj444 -- 2/21/2012 3:44:02 PM >

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 3:42:20 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds

Fargle, read her whole post...
She pointed out that the objective in "punishing," clumsiness by making the kid clean it up is to teach situational awareness. Better that punishment than the punishment for walking into a busy street with eyes closed and ipod on at full volume...

Thank you for understanding my post. I'm certainly not advocating corporal punishment for spilled milk....

p.s. those of you who do not think children benefit from being made aware of how their body moves through space or do not benefit from learning responsibility for the accidents that they cause are free to ignore the spilled milk and clean up after your children. We are each free to define discipline how we feel is appropriate. For me, personally, at a certain age, I was taught to clean up after my messes, and to be aware of physical dangers around me. I am still thankful to my parents for having done so. No complaints from me with how I was raised. My parents were neither abusive nor psychologically damaging to me for making me clean up spilled milk.

< Message edited by fucktoyprincess -- 2/21/2012 3:49:12 PM >

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 3:43:04 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds

Fargle, read her whole post...
She pointed out that the objective in "punishing," clumsiness by making the kid clean it up is to teach situational awareness. Better that punishment than the punishment for walking into a busy street with eyes closed and ipod on at full volume...


Then you're not punishing him for an ACCIDENT.

You're punishing him for NOT PAYING ATTENTION.

And not paying attention is no accident.

If you're not really clear what you're punishing people for, how do you expect them to learn.

When you're FUCKING WITH PEOPLE'S BRAINS, you have a duty to pay attention to the details. Otherwise, you'll likely cause more damage than you resolve...

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 3:44:29 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I object however to deliberately punishing a child with a disability. Which is what one parent reported. Her child has ADHD which frequently includes fine motor skills problems. Instead of helping the kid learn coping skills, they piled fine upon fine on the parent until she couldn't afford to pay and took him out.

I thought the American with Disabilities Act prohibits treating disabled people in this manner. And that's what this was, a deliberate attempt to get rid of the child instead of helping him.

My daughter has trouble still tying her shoes. She is neatly and appropriately dressed when she needs to be. But she doesn't buy shoes with laces. By mandating that the children have such shoes, it allows the school to not have to provide help to disabled students. Instead they just get rid of them. And that's what I object to.


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