RE: students fined for untied shoelaces

RE: students fined for untied shoelaces (Full Version)

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farglebargle -> RE: students fined for untied shoelaces (2/21/2012 3:50:20 PM)
Ding Ding Ding. Since there's pretty much no oversight, these schools play all sorts of games to stack the deck in their favor. My favorite trick these bastards use is to claim that admission is fair because of a lottery, but the lottery itself requires parents to take steps to get into, and so the kids who need the help most -- whose parents care least -- are left out of the lottery completely.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: students fined for untied shoelaces (2/21/2012 3:54:20 PM)
DesFIP, you raise another question entirely. I had assumed this entire thread has only been discussing children who would be considered within the normal distribution along many dimensions. I agree that if one has a child with special needs, that then one needs to parent in a completely different way, and that also they would have to be handled differently in an educational setting. None of my previous comments should be taken to apply to a child that faces any issues such as ADHD, autism, aspbergers, etc. each of which would require specialized approaches.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: students fined for untied shoelaces (2/21/2012 4:00:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Then you're not punishing him for an ACCIDENT. To me an accident is the equivalent of I am following the rules of the road and someone ignores the red light, and hits me. i.e., I get injured, hurt, or some mess is created - through NO fault of my own. It is my personal belief that many adults use the term "accident" incorrectly. I would like you to explain to me how a glass of milk that has been poured for a child ends up spilled by an accident? Let us assume no pets, no siblings (obviously, if the pet or sibling caused it, that is not the fault of the child.) The child is at the table. The parent is at the stove cooking. And boom, the glass of milk falls. Divine intervention? The Devil? How does the milk spill "by accident".

tj444 -> RE: students fined for untied shoelaces (2/21/2012 4:10:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 I wonder where individuality comes in, if it does at all.. If I had a kid I would teach the kid to think for him/her self, teach them to question things that need questioning (including what goes on at school, the workplace, etc),.. teach them to learn to carefully make their own decisions and to realize there are consequences, then live with them, good or bad.. JMO.. One side of this education is that kids arent allowed to think, they must just follow the rules like robots.. they risk becoming the ass kissers of the world, both at work and off.. and ass kissers dont tend to stand up when wrong is being done.. That makes me cringe for some reason.. again, jmo.. Well in all fairness to this school, the article didn't really discuss the academic methods the school was using. But given the school's success rate at college placement, I think it is fair to assume that the kids are being taught to think and question in an intellectual way. I do not see that as having anything to do with the level of overall discipline that the school has. Having been on a movie set before (as on observer only), I will say this. Individuality is great. But when you are on set, you expect people to show up on time, with their lines learned, to be dressed in their costume, to follow directions with great specificity, not challenge authority in an obstructive way (because there simply isn't the time) and work cooperatively to get the job done. Being in a creative industry or profession does not mean you get to call all the shots however you feel. There is a huge difference between being an ass kisser and being disciplined. The people I know who are not disciplined in their lives tend to fail repeatedly at the things they choose to do in life. The people I know who are individuals or mavericks who are also disciplined are tremendously successful in whatever they've chosen to do. Being undisciplined in anything that one does is generally not a good thing. And discipline has nothing to do with either creativity or individuality. That is all well and good for the robots, the cogs in the wheel,.. not everyone has that temperment tho, there are some that dont or cant work for someone else, they dont tend to fit in well in the school system.. but they are frequently the ones that become entreprenuers, they are the ones that are willing to take the risks, they believe in themselves when no one else does.. even thru several failures,.. they persevere and usually eventually succeed... and they do tend to be disciplined, to be focused, they couldnt succeed otherwise. One problem i see with education is that it teaches you to work for someone else, it teaches you to be one of the minions, to work for a soulless corp where only the numbers matter.. you dont hit your numbers you are fired.. it does not teach you to work for yourself, that is one reason why I stopped at only one year of college.. what i learned in the one year i did take i could have just as easily and much less expensively learned from just reading books.. which is what i do now..

outhere69 -> RE: students fined for untied shoelaces (2/21/2012 4:12:08 PM)
When a kid is still getting their motor coordination dialed in. I remember knocking over glasses when I was 4 or 5, getting yelled at, and not meaning at all to knock it over. Usually I misjudged a reach for something else. Turns out there was a physiological reason for it. I don't see why this model couldn't be applied to any school with behavioral problems, including (but not limited to) poor rural. Hell, we had often had fights at my high school and that was in a suburb of San Jose.

JstAnotherSub -> RE: students fined for untied shoelaces (2/21/2012 4:13:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl The fines are wrong. Giving detentions for untied shoelaces is just as wrong. My point is, shoelaces coming untied and buttons popping open are not acts of defiance at all. They're accidents.....things that happen to everyone. What's next....punishing students for nausea and vomiting? Oh wait......they probably already do that if it happens between classes and makes a student late. I call bullshit on so many of those students getting into college. How can they if their student records make them look like juvenile delinquents because of untied shoelaces? How you get from point A to point B amazes me most days.

thompsonx -> RE: students fined for untied shoelaces (2/21/2012 4:16:10 PM)
quote: gawd,.. glad my parents didnt punish me for spilled milk.. I grew up on a dairy farm and there were lots of milk spills.. The above + your avitar = coffee all over my monitor... shame on you.

tj444 -> RE: students fined for untied shoelaces (2/21/2012 4:20:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: gawd,.. glad my parents didnt punish me for spilled milk.. I grew up on a dairy farm and there were lots of milk spills.. The above + your avitar = coffee all over my monitor... shame on you. shame on me??? I'm not the one that had that train of thought.. [;)]

tj444 -> RE: students fined for untied shoelaces (2/21/2012 4:23:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: outhere69 When a kid is still getting their motor coordination dialed in. I remember knocking over glasses when I was 4 or 5, getting yelled at, and not meaning at all to knock it over. Usually I misjudged a reach for something else. Turns out there was a physiological reason for it. I don't see why this model couldn't be applied to any school with behavioral problems, including (but not limited to) poor rural. Hell, we had often had fights at my high school and that was in a suburb of San Jose. it could also be due to needing glasses or sight issues..

BitaTruble -> RE: students fined for untied shoelaces (2/21/2012 4:26:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess How does the milk spill "by accident". Who would spill their milk on purpose? It seems to me that if milk is spilled, it's certainly an accident. Perhaps an accident brought on by carelessness, reaction to an unexpected event that brings on distraction, hurry or what have you, but an accident none-the-less. Milk spills, toes get stubbed, keys get misplaced, buttons pop, shoelaces get untied (when I have my nikes on, even when I double knot them, they still come untied - weird, waxy laces is my guess) Sometimes shit just happens. Different perceptions I suppose.

pyroaquatic -> RE: students fined for untied shoelaces (2/21/2012 4:31:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl http://news.yahoo.com/chicago-school-draws-scrutiny-over-student-fines-202924231.html# Why would any parent want to send their kid to a school like this? quote: Milkie, though, doesn't plan to change a thing. "It's a beautiful system," he said. "I don't want to brag, but it is. It's why the kids are so successful." I would not send my (potential) children to this school for a few reasons: 1.) Assuming I am poor I would not be able to afford the fines. Living right on the poverty lines 45 dollars pays for a few home cooked meals. Even if my children were normal they are children and practically the embodiment of chaos. Not to mention if they had some disadvantage that would set me up as some sort of milked cow for cash. 2.) Why set up your children for success in the context of some other persons definition? Cody Lundin is successful and he does not even wear shoes. My definition of success-or even my child's definition of success-does not match up personally. I understand that this is a Prep. school and yes you do have to look professional. There are many reasons as to why you have to be on time, look orderly, and pay-attention. One of the greatest tacticians on this planet-Miyamoto Musashi-had terrible body order and was dissheveled more often than not, he was never on time and seemed like he had no focus or care whatsoever. This was all used to his advantage in duels where death was possible with one false step. Also, he was an artist and a great philosopher influencing an entire school of fencing. This seems like an issue of context and personal preference though. I see the advantage and disadvantage of these pay-fine policies. I would easily accept a Community-Service option in stead of the fines.

defiantbadgirl -> RE: students fined for untied shoelaces (2/21/2012 4:33:49 PM)
If I was a teenager at that school and received a demerit over untied shoelaces, I'd spend my time trying to catch teachers and administrators with untied shoelaces instead of concentrating on my studies. Then I'd call them on it and demand $5 just to embarrass them and show them how the students feel. I was well behaved in school because I wasn't treated like shit. Crap like this would've enraged me and perhaps even turned me into a delinquent.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: students fined for untied shoelaces (2/21/2012 4:35:39 PM)
tj444, I completely understand what you are saying. But do you think it would really make sense to structure a country's entire school system to be geared towards those who are mavericks? By definition a maverick is someone who has very independent views, or who doesn't fit into the conventional. If you geared all of education to them, I think you would fail society as a whole. I consider Warren Buffett and Bill Gates to both be entrepreneurs. But they were both disciplined students in grade school. They both graduated from high school. They weren't children who had disciplinary issues when they were growing up. Gates dropped out of Harvard to found Microsoft - not because he couldn't do well at Harvard, but he already had his idea, and wanted to start. Buffett ended up going to Columbia for business school - and it was during his graduate degree that he met his financial mentor. Both these men are considered classic American entrepreneurs. But they were both able to function in a school environment, and, in fact, attend some of the top universities in the country. So again, let us not confuse entrepreneurship with an inability to get through high school. Graduating from high school does not mean someone is only fit to be a cog in a wheel. Is that really what you think of ALL high school graduates? Because the school that we are discussing in this thread is grade school. Not college. I understand you stopped after a year of college. But are you actually suggesting you would be better off if you had dropped out of high school? If you are, then fine. But I think a high school degree (or some other technical equivalent) is tremendously helpful to most people. Even those who seek out technical training after high school usually benefit from their grade school education (some level of reading, mathematics and communication skills really are necessary in the real world).

littlewonder -> RE: students fined for untied shoelaces (2/21/2012 4:39:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl If I was a teenager at that school and received a demerit over untied shoelaces, I'd spend my time trying to catch teachers and administrators with untied shoelaces instead of concentrating on my studies. Then I'd call them on it and demand $5 just to embarrass them and show them how the students feel. I was well behaved in school because I wasn't treated like shit. Crap like this would've enraged me and perhaps even turned me into a delinquent. To me this just makes you sound like an angry, bitter person and if I was a teacher and you were the student I'd simply put you in detention and after the third, suspend you because apparently you don't care squat about education and learning but about seeing how far you can push others.

DarkSteven -> RE: students fined for untied shoelaces (2/21/2012 4:41:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl If I was a teenager at that school and received a demerit over untied shoelaces, I'd spend my time trying to catch teachers and administrators with untied shoelaces instead of concentrating on my studies. Then I'd call them on it and demand $5 just to embarrass them and show them how the students feel. I was well behaved in school because I wasn't treated like shit. Crap like this would've enraged me and perhaps even turned me into a delinquent. We get it. You would be a poor fit there. You dislike authority and rules, and are less focused on your ultimate goal of college, hopefully with a scholarship resulting from good HS grades, and subsequent success in the workplace, than with fighting rules.

outhere69 -> RE: students fined for untied shoelaces (2/21/2012 4:45:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: outhere69 When a kid is still getting their motor coordination dialed in. I remember knocking over glasses when I was 4 or 5, getting yelled at, and not meaning at all to knock it over. Usually I misjudged a reach for something else. Turns out there was a physiological reason for it. I don't see why this model couldn't be applied to any school with behavioral problems, including (but not limited to) poor rural. Hell, we had often had fights at my high school and that was in a suburb of San Jose. it could also be due to needing glasses or sight issues.. True, especially if you had whacked depth perception.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: students fined for untied shoelaces (2/21/2012 4:46:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess How does the milk spill "by accident". Who would spill their milk on purpose? It seems to me that if milk is spilled, it's certainly an accident. Perhaps an accident brought on by carelessness, reaction to an unexpected event that brings on distraction, hurry or what have you, but an accident none-the-less. Milk spills, toes get stubbed, keys get misplaced, buttons pop, shoelaces get untied (when I have my nikes on, even when I double knot them, they still come untied - weird, waxy laces is my guess) Sometimes shit just happens. Different perceptions I suppose. Yes, and if you read my prior posts, all I am suggesting is that a child take responsibility for what happened and clean up the mess. I don't see that as such a big deal, but obviously there are several on this thread who believe that when milk is spilled it is the parent's responsibility to clean up the mess because to do otherwise is to "punish" the child, and that results in "psychological damage". Everyone is free to parent however they want. But I was raised in a household where we both acknowledged and cleaned up our own messes, regardless of how one wants to label the cause. And I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. I agree that sometimes shit just happens. But who takes responsibility to clean the shit up? And what does it say about someone if they feel they are not responsible for cleaning the shit up, because it was not on purpose? That if it is not on purpose, it is always someone else's responsibility to clean the shit up? Again, in my household, if I created a mess, however it happened, I had to clean it up. Period. There wasn't a lot of philosophical discussion around was it carelessness, distraction, intentional or whatever. It was, "here's the washcloth, clean it up." I fundamentally believe in personal responsibility. This thread is giving me a lot of insight into why younger people today perhaps lack a sense of personal responsibility for their actions. Just because shit happens doesn't mean others have to clean it up.

DarkSteven -> RE: students fined for untied shoelaces (2/21/2012 4:51:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess I am suggesting is that a child take responsibility for what happened and clean up the mess. Actually, I took a childraising class, and they distinguished between two kinds of acts - deliberate defiance and accidents. In both cases the child was to remedy their mistake - for example, if a child's stray baseball broke a window, the child should pay for it - but for an accident, that was it. For deliberate defiance, there would be a punishment added. So per that definition, ftp, your example of cleaning up the spilled milk would simply be fixing the mess, and not considered a punishment at all.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: students fined for untied shoelaces (2/21/2012 5:00:20 PM)
DarkSteven, you and others on this thread, understand what I am saying. But for some reason it is really upsetting others. I think how people are reacting to both the spilled milk analogy and to the discipline issue in the school, is coming from how they view personal responsibility themselves. I stand by everything I've written in this thread. Those of you who think otherwise, please contemplate a society where no takes personal responsibility for anything anymore. And where everyone feels the rules never apply to them. And who spend all of their time trying to get out of the rules. I'll be honest. I wouldn't even want to be in a D/s relationship like that, let alone an entire society. Imagine a Dominant who feels he doesn't have the responsibility to acknowledge the utterance of a safe word. There really are rules everywhere....

defiantbadgirl -> RE: students fined for untied shoelaces (2/21/2012 5:01:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl If I was a teenager at that school and received a demerit over untied shoelaces, I'd spend my time trying to catch teachers and administrators with untied shoelaces instead of concentrating on my studies. Then I'd call them on it and demand $5 just to embarrass them and show them how the students feel. I was well behaved in school because I wasn't treated like shit. Crap like this would've enraged me and perhaps even turned me into a delinquent. To me this just makes you sound like an angry, bitter person and if I was a teacher and you were the student I'd simply put you in detention and after the third, suspend you because apparently you don't care squat about education and learning but about seeing how far you can push others. Even if your shoelaces were untied? Such hypocrisy.

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