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RE: Why is US medical care so expensive? - 3/3/2012 2:47:58 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline 		Check THIS out!

And see GlobalVillage's comment.

Fuck, man, this CongressCare is killing us.

< Message edited by Hippiekinkster -- 3/3/2012 2:52:35 AM >

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(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Why is US medical care so expensive? - 3/3/2012 4:20:25 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Incredible so many are happy to pay for the security of a nation but not the health of it. I`m still waiting for someone to show me how anyone in the forces, homeland security, customs etc is any less of a public worker than someone in the NHS in the UK.

Why the hell should some of US have paid to find the WMD`s, when we knew they werent there in the first place.

Logical replies on a postcard please.


Excellent point, my dear PS.

*Were* there any logical replies? I didn't see any.


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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Why is US medical care so expensive? - 3/3/2012 7:06:06 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

And see GlobalVillage's comment.


Since many do not click on links:

Why are costs so high here?

1. PROFIT - especially for health insurance companies and private for-profit hospitals. "Administrative costs" (largely profits) are nearly three times as high for private for-profit hospitals in the U.S. as for government-administered hospitals in Canada.

Single (government)-payer systems spend much less - there is no need for profits. Even more cost-efficient, according to the OECD, are public integrated systems, in which the government owns the hospitals and health professionals are salaried. Quality is not compromised.

2. BIG PHARMA - Again profit is the major culprit, but Big Pharma deserves special mention. These firms average 17-19 % profit per year, more than twice the average for Fortune 500 companies. The same medications in Western Europe cost 55-65 % of their U.S. cost. Big Pharma in the U.S. has paid nearly $30 billion in fines, penalties, and settlements for egregious violations of truth-in-advertising, fraudulent promotion, and medical endangerment regulations in the last 15 years. They pass these along to consumers, SINCE WE - nearly alone among developed democracies - HAVE NO FORMAL PRICE CONTROLS ON PHARMACEUTICALS.

3. CURATIVE MEDICINE BIAS - treating illness generates far more activity, and is much more profitable, than preventing it. We have always soft-pedaled prevention.

4. MEDICAL MALPRACTICE....and especially malpractice insurance. The U.S. is a highly litigious society, and insurance companies and more than a few attorneys are willing to take advantage of this. Physicians are paying ludicrously high premiums for malpractice insurance - premiums that are not related to the incidence of malpractice, or the magnitude of malpractice awards. Malpractice fears lead to unneeded diagnostic and treatment costs.

The "medical error" rate is higher in the U.S. than in the U.K., Canada, or Australia (where comparable data are gathered), especially for surgical procedures. This despite the fact that U.S. medical schools are acknowledged as the best in the world. We do too many procedures.

5. OVERSPECIALIZATION - We overcompensate most medical specialties, and underpay most of our family doctors. This encourages both new and established doctors to specialize. There is a shortage of primacy care physicians in many locations, and an excess of specialists.

6. LAST-YEAR-OF-LIFE COSTS are very high in the U.S. - 26% of all Medicare costs.

7. BUREAUCRATIC MEDICAL DECISION MAKING - on the part of insurance companies, which focus on their bottom line. Patients are pushed out of hospitals early, leading to higher readmission rates and more costly treatment. Simple initial diagnostic procedures are demanded, even when it is clear that more sophisticated procedures are needed, e.g., not permitting an MRI until an X-ray has been done.

The most cost-effective U.S. systems are the VA and Medicare. That says a lot - including that we need the PPACA...but with a public insurance option.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Why is US medical care so expensive? - 3/3/2012 8:52:18 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel
On the contrary, the mandate makes sense because everybody gets sick eventually. Health insurance is like car insurance--I may not need it any time soon (and when it comes to car insurance, I may never need it, as I've never had an accident) but it is nice knowing it is there if I do need it.


How does your premium for car insurance compare to the premiums for health care? Not only that, but how much are you paying towards purchasing car insurance for others? You choose to drive. You are required to carry auto insurance. If you choose to not have a driver's license and not drive, you do not have to carry auto insurance. You can't choose to not go to a health care facility to keep from being required to have health care insurance.

If the cost of care was significantly lower, would there be the need for insurance? If there were more physicians competing for the opportunity to treat you, would prices be lower? If there was a greater use of Physician Assistants and Nurse Practitioners, would costs be reduced? If we had the opportunity to choose whomever we want to provide us medical care, would it be cheaper?

If there were "levels" of medical certifications and only the top tiers were allowed to prescribe medications, would we be better off? We could keep the regular checkups done towards the lower tiers and move them up tiers if situations exist. If I take my son in for a yearly checkup and he isn't experiencing anything out of the ordinary, wouldn't that be easily handled by a nurse? If somethings is discovered, a higher level doctor could be called in. I have a friend who gets a severe case of poison ivy every year. Every year, he goes in to see the doctor and gets prescribed a steroidal cream. Wouldn't it be better to have a nurse take care of this guy instead of a doctor? Since this guy requires a steroidal cream, a NP or a PA can prescribe those medications (in many states, not sure if all states allow it), and would be less expensive to see than a physician.

PA's and NP's typically are allowed to write prescriptions for non-narcotic drugs, and have to be under the supervision of a physician (not necessarily direct supervision, but a physician has to review their actions).

Wouldn't these suggestions be ways to reduce the cost of care, rather than simply forcing someone to pay for someone else's care?


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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Why is US medical care so expensive? - 3/3/2012 8:56:09 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		I'm tired of paying for pussies' 'security' at the airport.

Since security airports isn't in the constitution, Every TSA employee at the airport fired, and we should collect all the money mistakenly paid to them from our Treasury.

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Why is US medical care so expensive? - 3/3/2012 8:57:14 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Holy Hell Batman. Hippiekinkster, you might want to re-read what I posted and what I've posted all along. I support charities and honestly believe they are the way to get things done properly, and more efficiently than via government.
What you are either ignoring or missed in my posts was that I don't want to be forced into paying for those things. Jesus didn't force anyone. They had their own choices. Jesus made the consequences clear. It's up to you to choose and to do the right thing. Government taxing me to pay for someone else is not charity. That's theft. If you can't see the difference, well, gimme your wallet. lmao
You Social Darwinists always talk up charities as though they are some sort of miraculous panacea for taking care of the sick, the infirm, the aged, the destitute... as though these people are some sort of drain on the military, and the multinationals, and the psychopaths on Wall St. and in mid-Manhattan, and especially on the Forbes 400.
And that is where you all take a 90 from reality. Historically, charity has NEVER been able to meet the needs of the most needy and infirm. The Romans had a system of welfare and pensions. The Sung Dynasty circa 1000 M.E. had social supports. In Medeival Europe the government (The Holy Roman Empire) administered welfare via Bishops, local Priests, and Deacons. The Poor Law of 1601, Elizabeth 43 established a local system of relief. That was fine for then. The Industrial Revolution brought new problems. That is exactly why Bismarck established Health, Accident, and Old Age and Disability Insurance beginning in 1883. And why similar systems sprang up all over Europe... and WHY workers began to take things into their own hands.
You can keep your Alisa Rosenbaum dystopia, where those who can't keep up with Howard Roark can just go off and die somewhere.


So, you quote some Bible passages intending to show me how I am wrong. I show you how those Bible passages don't apply to what I am saying. You, rather than offer a rebuttal, go off on some wacko tangent. Interesting. But, in the end, point, me.


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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Why is US medical care so expensive? - 3/3/2012 8:59:47 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Jesus told you to take care of the poor.

Now shut up and go do some charity.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/3/2012 9:00:09 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Why is US medical care so expensive? - 3/3/2012 9:08:31 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

Why should a Dr.? You have no rights to a Dr.'s service simply because you are alive. If a Dr. agrees to see Medicare/Aid patients, he or she is accepting the reimbursement rates, as the negotiated fee for services provided. And, that is their absolute right to do so. On the flip side, a Dr. can also decide that reimbursement rates are too low and refuse to add any more Medicare/Aid patients, or refuse to see them at all.

So he can use our tax dollars to educate himself and then tell us later to go fuck ourselves... lol
Very few Drs will refuse to see Medicare patients... they lose far too much money.


Don't you see how stupid this is? We pay for his education. We pay for him to see patients. We pay, We pay, We pay. How about, We don't pay at the very beginning? Instead of adding another layer of stuff We pay for, how about we reduce the things We pay for?

The only thing that is guaranteed to happen when taxpayers pick up the tab for something, is that something else will be next in line for taxpayers to pick the tab up for. Guaranteed.

Get the Government out of it. Free Market Capitalism (which we don't have) requires little governmental intervention (notice, I did not say it needs no intervention). The fewer the intrusions the government makes into the Market, the less likely there is to be crony capitalism (which is more what we have), corporatism (even closer to what we have), and government corruption.

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Why is US medical care so expensive? - 3/3/2012 9:17:51 AM   
SoftBonds


Posts: 862
Joined: 2/10/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel
On the contrary, the mandate makes sense because everybody gets sick eventually. Health insurance is like car insurance--I may not need it any time soon (and when it comes to car insurance, I may never need it, as I've never had an accident) but it is nice knowing it is there if I do need it.


How does your premium for car insurance compare to the premiums for health care? Not only that, but how much are you paying towards purchasing car insurance for others? You choose to drive. You are required to carry auto insurance. If you choose to not have a driver's license and not drive, you do not have to carry auto insurance. You can't choose to not go to a health care facility to keep from being required to have health care insurance.

If the cost of care was significantly lower, would there be the need for insurance? If there were more physicians competing for the opportunity to treat you, would prices be lower? If there was a greater use of Physician Assistants and Nurse Practitioners, would costs be reduced? If we had the opportunity to choose whomever we want to provide us medical care, would it be cheaper?

If there were "levels" of medical certifications and only the top tiers were allowed to prescribe medications, would we be better off? We could keep the regular checkups done towards the lower tiers and move them up tiers if situations exist. If I take my son in for a yearly checkup and he isn't experiencing anything out of the ordinary, wouldn't that be easily handled by a nurse? If somethings is discovered, a higher level doctor could be called in. I have a friend who gets a severe case of poison ivy every year. Every year, he goes in to see the doctor and gets prescribed a steroidal cream. Wouldn't it be better to have a nurse take care of this guy instead of a doctor? Since this guy requires a steroidal cream, a NP or a PA can prescribe those medications (in many states, not sure if all states allow it), and would be less expensive to see than a physician.

PA's and NP's typically are allowed to write prescriptions for non-narcotic drugs, and have to be under the supervision of a physician (not necessarily direct supervision, but a physician has to review their actions).

Wouldn't these suggestions be ways to reduce the cost of care, rather than simply forcing someone to pay for someone else's care?



DS, most of your ideas are very good on how to lower cost of care, but your first point I disagree with. The reason drivers are required to have insurance is because A. It sucks when someone without insurance crashes into your car, and you have to pay deductible, deal with your insurance company, etc. Generally, if you try to get the guy who crashed into you to pay, he is broke (he just crashed his car after all, plus he "couldn't pay," for insurance...). And B. The fact that the insurance companies of people who have insurance have to pay for the repairs when someone without insurance causes an accident makes all policies more expensive.
THE EXACT SAME THING APPLIES WITH HEALTH INSURANCE.
People have mentioned over and over again that hospitals treat everyone, regardless of whether they have insurance.
Then they try to collect, and discover "Hey, this guy can't pay."
Then they pass the costs on to their other customers.
The money doesn't come from the sky. You get what you pay for. Unless you want hospitals to stop treating emergency cases until after they verify insurance... Is that the point you are trying to make?

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Why is US medical care so expensive? - 3/3/2012 9:25:24 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

The mandate for everyone to purchase insurance is to force the healthy people to buy insurance they may not use, paying for those that will use it.

Lets clear up a few misconceptions. Everyone accesses health care at some point in their lives. Everyone. Sometimes its not even by choice. A car accident, a fall on the slopes, a pedestrian hit by a car... an appendicitis.
Those who voluntarily go without health insurance are typically in their 20's to 30's. They are also the group that, as a whole, take the most risks.
The 65 and older crowd can be discounted because they have Medicare.. while it may not pay for everything, its better than nothing.
quote:

Not a single one of those people died because they lacked insurance. Not. A. One. Are people dying in the streets because they just got out of college, got dropped from their parent's insurance plan and have yet to gain insurance from their own job? No.

Prove it. Prove a lack of health insurance doesnt cause death. I happen to know it does.


We would not be alive today if lack of insurance caused death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_insurance_in_the_United_States

How did we get from 1776 to 1890 without health insurance?

quote:

quote:

Once you are past infancy, health care doesn't actually allow you to live. All it does, is allow you to live longer.


LOL.. so after the age of 2 (infancy stage), we dont need to worry about health care for a child... wonderful news! Im sure many parents will thank you for taking that burden off of them.


Your non-rebuttal rebuttal noted.

quote:

quote:

Who says you get to have a lumpectomy or terminal cancer, HBP or a stroke, colon impaction or bowel obstruction? What gives you the right to demand that someone provide a service to you and then to have someone else pay for it?


Ah then you agree lack of heath insurance causes death, because without it, those issues will never be resolved.


Nope. The cancer, stroke or bowel obstruction caused the death. Insurance may have been able to help pay for procedures to extend your life, but that is not the same.

quote:

quote:

How long do you have a right to live? How long? If I die before I reach my "right to live" age, are my survivors allowed to sue for wrongful death?

Logan's Run? lol
What you are blissfully missing is this...
At some point, everyone accesses health care. Its either when the problem is minor.. or when its major.
Whats driving up health care costs is that people without insurance have to wait until the major... and then hospitals cannot turn them away.
A man has chest discomfort... if he has insurance, he will go to the hospital. If not, he will hope and pray its only heart burn, take something over the counter, and lay down. It doesnt get better... it gets worse... and he had to wait. Now he is off in a ambulance when someone could have driven him if he had left sooner. Now its code mode when he hits the ER, instead of a quiet but quick assessment and tests. Now its permanent heart damage when it very well could have been avoided.


Yet another non-answer to the question. (I know why, though, so it's okay)

quote:

quote:

If you make a choice, shouldn't you be the one to gain or lose as a direct consequence of your choice?


Yup, and people who buy insurance pay for those who dont. The problem with your logic, once again, is that everyone accesses health care... everyone. Some dont pay in... and they usually dont care when the bills roll around because they cant afford to live, let alone worry about paying a hospital bill thats over priced.



Aha! So, now you're admitting that your choices will have consequences for more than just yourself. If you choose a slovenly, over-consumptive lifestyle, you will have a financial impact on anyone else that lives a better lifestyle than you and is thrown into the same risk pool as you. You are now shedding responsibility for your actions.

quote:

But, hey, if you dont mind paying for them... go for it! I am sure they appreciate it.
Yeah, I get it that you dont give a fuck. I am just thrilled that there are not that many people who are quite this uncaring when it comes to life or death.
quote:

Profits and loss are the two main feedback variables that will lead to improved services and goods.

ROFL.. here we go with trickle down theory again!
Pst.. it doesnt work.


Yeah, we're such a backwards country. We've not gained anything from being based on Capitalism. We didn't build the largest economy in the World because of Capitalism.

(Pssst...yes, yes it does work...if you let it)

quote:

quote:

You have to have both. You can't simply prevent people from profiting, there will be no motivation for innovation.

Pst.. news flash.. the US is not the only country and develops new technology. Sort of makes your comment moot.


And none of these other countries profit from new technology developed there? Do you want innovation in your country or outside your country? We aren't the only country that spawns innovation and new technology. I just have this silly fantasy of maintaining the US as being one of those countries that spawns innovation and new technology.

quote:

Btw, you do know that hospitals treat first and ask about insurance later in cases of emergency, right?


And that matters....how?

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Why is US medical care so expensive? - 3/3/2012 9:29:39 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Jesus told you to take care of the poor.

Now shut up and go do some charity.


Being forced into paying taxes is not charity. But, nice try.

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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Why is US medical care so expensive? - 3/3/2012 9:33:28 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds
You get what you pay for.


Not exactly, SoftBonds. If you do not have insurance, or are one of the ones that is increasing the risks in your risk pool, you are getting what other people are paying for.

That is what I am against.

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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Why is US medical care so expensive? - 3/3/2012 9:34:16 AM   
SoftBonds


Posts: 862
Joined: 2/10/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

The mandate for everyone to purchase insurance is to force the healthy people to buy insurance they may not use, paying for those that will use it.

Lets clear up a few misconceptions. Everyone accesses health care at some point in their lives. Everyone. Sometimes its not even by choice. A car accident, a fall on the slopes, a pedestrian hit by a car... an appendicitis.
Those who voluntarily go without health insurance are typically in their 20's to 30's. They are also the group that, as a whole, take the most risks.
The 65 and older crowd can be discounted because they have Medicare.. while it may not pay for everything, its better than nothing.
quote:

Not a single one of those people died because they lacked insurance. Not. A. One. Are people dying in the streets because they just got out of college, got dropped from their parent's insurance plan and have yet to gain insurance from their own job? No.

Prove it. Prove a lack of health insurance doesnt cause death. I happen to know it does.


We would not be alive today if lack of insurance caused death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_insurance_in_the_United_States

How did we get from 1776 to 1890 without health insurance?


Also, polio doesn't cause death, since we didn't have a polio vaccine for that time period.
Also, gangrene doesn't cause death, since we didn't have germ theory for most of that time period.
Also, the black death doesn't cause death, cause back then we didn't know that rats and fleas carried the plague...

Just because something causes death, doesn't mean some humans don't survive it dude.

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Why is US medical care so expensive? - 3/3/2012 10:44:11 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Jesus told you to take care of the poor.

Now shut up and go do some charity.


Being forced into paying taxes is not charity. But, nice try.


Why are you still here and not out feeding the poor and washing their feet?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Why is US medical care so expensive? - 3/3/2012 11:25:07 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

Why should a Dr.? You have no rights to a Dr.'s service simply because you are alive. If a Dr. agrees to see Medicare/Aid patients, he or she is accepting the reimbursement rates, as the negotiated fee for services provided. And, that is their absolute right to do so. On the flip side, a Dr. can also decide that reimbursement rates are too low and refuse to add any more Medicare/Aid patients, or refuse to see them at all.

So he can use our tax dollars to educate himself and then tell us later to go fuck ourselves... lol
Very few Drs will refuse to see Medicare patients... they lose far too much money.


Don't you see how stupid this is? We pay for his education. We pay for him to see patients. We pay, We pay, We pay. How about, We don't pay at the very beginning? Instead of adding another layer of stuff We pay for, how about we reduce the things We pay for?

The only thing that is guaranteed to happen when taxpayers pick up the tab for something, is that something else will be next in line for taxpayers to pick the tab up for. Guaranteed.

Get the Government out of it. Free Market Capitalism (which we don't have) requires little governmental intervention (notice, I did not say it needs no intervention). The fewer the intrusions the government makes into the Market, the less likely there is to be crony capitalism (which is more what we have), corporatism (even closer to what we have), and government corruption.


I do not have the faith in free market that you do.

Free Market Capitalism

Since we dont have one, can you point to a country that does so I can compare?

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Why is US medical care so expensive? - 3/3/2012 11:54:37 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

:

quote:

quote:



How long do you have a right to live? How long? If I die before I reach my "right to live" age, are my survivors allowed to sue for wrongful death?

Logan's Run? lol
What you are blissfully missing is this...
At some point, everyone accesses health care. Its either when the problem is minor.. or when its major.
Whats driving up health care costs is that people without insurance have to wait until the major... and then hospitals cannot turn them away.
A man has chest discomfort... if he has insurance, he will go to the hospital. If not, he will hope and pray its only heart burn, take something over the counter, and lay down. It doesnt get better... it gets worse... and he had to wait. Now he is off in a ambulance when someone could have driven him if he had left sooner. Now its code mode when he hits the ER, instead of a quiet but quick assessment and tests. Now its permanent heart damage when it very well could have been avoided.



Yet another non-answer to the question. (I know why, though, so it's okay)


Very much an answer to your question. The fact that you do not like the answer makes it no less valid But, yes, I can see why you would refuse to address it. (and thats ok)

quote:

Aha! So, now you're admitting that your choices will have consequences for more than just yourself. If you choose a slovenly, over-consumptive lifestyle, you will have a financial impact on anyone else that lives a better lifestyle than you and is thrown into the same risk pool as you. You are now shedding responsibility for your actions.


NOW I am admitting? Dude, maybe you should spend some time and review topics on the health care bills and then the law to see what my position is. You are clueless about many things.

quote:

Yeah, we're such a backwards country. We've not gained anything from being based on Capitalism. We didn't build the largest economy in the World because of Capitalism.

(Pssst...yes, yes it does work...if you let it)


A country that is going under because of all that Capitalism that was left unchecked.

yeah, we all see how well it worked.


quote:

And none of these other countries profit from new technology developed there? Do you want innovation in your country or outside your country? We aren't the only country that spawns innovation and new technology. I just have this silly fantasy of maintaining the US as being one of those countries that spawns innovation and new technology.


You do realize that more health care tourism leaves this country than enters it, yes?

A McKinsey and Co. report from 2008 found that a plurality of an estimated 60,000 to 85,000 medical tourists were traveling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care; the same McKinsey study estimated that 750,000 American medical tourists traveled from the United States to other countries in 2007 (up from 500,000 in 2006)

As far as medical inventions....

30 Significant Medical Achievements and Their Country of Origin

I am not arrogant enough to believe the US is the best, brightest and baddest super power on earth.

quote:

quote:

Btw, you do know that hospitals treat first and ask about insurance later in cases of emergency, right?


And that matters....how?


It matters in the cost of health care. You remember, the topic we are discussing?

Those who dont pay are driving up the costs to those who do. Hospitals and the like wont be left holding the bag, the public is.

Regardless of how you attempt tp spin it... the free market/capitalism wont pay for those who dont pay... you will. Thats why, last time I checked, a stitch in the ER cost over 600. So they charge more for all their services to compensate for those who dont pay.

Bottom line.

Joe has no insurance.

Joe has untreated high blood pressure. (Treating would cost roughly 100 a month.)

Joe has a stroke (because people like you decided he should suffer the consequences of his lack of insurance)

Joe shows up at the hospital via ambulance. *and, by law, they cannot turn emergencies away)

Joe is admitted and has everything done stat (one of those words that also means... expensive)

Joe has right sided paralysis related to the stroke.

Joe isnt able to be discharged because of his condition.

He now has the state taking care of his expenses.

You are paying for his medical care to the tune of 250,000 depending on how long he lives and if he makes a full recovery... if not, that amount will go up.

All because people felt he didnt deserve universal health care.

No, this isnt the first time I have said people with insurance pay for those without. And I suspect you know that. I am guessing you will disappear in a few months

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Why is US medical care so expensive? - 3/3/2012 12:41:11 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Jesus told you to take care of the poor.

Now shut up and go do some charity.


Being forced into paying taxes is not charity. But, nice try.

And it wouldn't be necessary if any of you people had a scrap of Christian charity in your psyches, would it?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Why is US medical care so expensive? - 3/3/2012 4:00:58 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Holy Hell Batman. Hippiekinkster, you might want to re-read what I posted and what I've posted all along. I support charities and honestly believe they are the way to get things done properly, and more efficiently than via government.
What you are either ignoring or missed in my posts was that I don't want to be forced into paying for those things. Jesus didn't force anyone. They had their own choices. Jesus made the consequences clear. It's up to you to choose and to do the right thing. Government taxing me to pay for someone else is not charity. That's theft. If you can't see the difference, well, gimme your wallet. lmao
You Social Darwinists always talk up charities as though they are some sort of miraculous panacea for taking care of the sick, the infirm, the aged, the destitute... as though these people are some sort of drain on the military, and the multinationals, and the psychopaths on Wall St. and in mid-Manhattan, and especially on the Forbes 400.
And that is where you all take a 90 from reality. Historically, charity has NEVER been able to meet the needs of the most needy and infirm. The Romans had a system of welfare and pensions. The Sung Dynasty circa 1000 M.E. had social supports. In Medeival Europe the government (The Holy Roman Empire) administered welfare via Bishops, local Priests, and Deacons. The Poor Law of 1601, Elizabeth 43 established a local system of relief. That was fine for then. The Industrial Revolution brought new problems. That is exactly why Bismarck established Health, Accident, and Old Age and Disability Insurance beginning in 1883. And why similar systems sprang up all over Europe... and WHY workers began to take things into their own hands.
You can keep your Alisa Rosenbaum dystopia, where those who can't keep up with Howard Roark can just go off and die somewhere.


So, you quote some Bible passages intending to show me how I am wrong. I show you how those Bible passages don't apply to what I am saying. You, rather than offer a rebuttal, go off on some wacko tangent. Interesting. But, in the end, point, me.



Didn't you say this?
"I support charities and honestly believe they are the way to get things done properly, and more efficiently than via government."

Explain to me, and everyone, how showing that charities are woefully inadequate at addressing the needs of the poor/sick/infirm/elderly/children, and showing why governments around the world, for over 2000 years, have had to step in and do the job, is going "off on some wacko tangent"?

I'm not a narcissistic egoist. I don't award myself victories. I let the readers decide such. Actually, I think they've pretty much decided.

Now, I'll ask my fellow Forum-dwellers a question. Would I be correct in stating that the majority of those who identify with conservatism/right-wing philosophy also identify as being Xtian? (Now I can dig up the research, but I don't think it necessary) If you affirm this statement, then I don't think it's a wild leap of faith ☺ to infer that desi is a Xtian.

As such, he has an obligation to submit to duly constituted authority, and not act contrary to his professed faith. (better?) I cite Romans 13:1-7:
"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor."

Quod erat demonstrandum.


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Why is US medical care so expensive? - 3/3/2012 4:24:33 PM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		We're rich it's a bitch but if 25% of u.s. costs is caused of not havin an euthanasia law. costs ze US at least 15%. Most dutch have a euthanasia clause these days. More so, than a donor codicil. I wouldnt mind being an organ donor. But I never signed one. Maybe I should. I think I told my friends. Thats not enough though. Hey if anybody wants a heart dial 555-12345 mine is dead in the water anysways.
What if you have an invalid child. Would you abort it?
edit I just saw a belgian doc on TV about 1 million african babies being born a year with a waterhead, cause they dont have medic equipment. thats freaky aye?

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 3/3/2012 5:13:36 PM >

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Why is US medical care so expensive? - 3/3/2012 4:44:11 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Incredible so many are happy to pay for the security of a nation but not the health of it. I`m still waiting for someone to show me how anyone in the forces, homeland security, customs etc is any less of a public worker than someone in the NHS in the UK.

Why the hell should some of US have paid to find the WMD`s, when we knew they werent there in the first place.

Logical replies on a postcard please.


Excellent point, my dear PS.

*Were* there any logical replies? I didn't see any.




Not a sausage, even logical or otherwise my friend.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 80
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