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RE: Single Parenthood = Child Abuse? - 3/2/2012 10:06:32 PM

Owner59

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I`m sure any sane parent would want good food and enough it,the best environment possible and the best socialization as possible but not everyone can have everything they want,sometimes it`s about survival.

Raising kids is to many,a daily grind and hard enough without being bothered by rightie-do-gooder-social-engineering.

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Post #: 21

RE: Single Parenthood = Child Abuse? - 3/2/2012 10:10:34 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
There are reams of studies that have made the case that children raised in two-parent households "do better" in many ways; socialization, education (not just affordability but performance), their own family lives, etc. The case has been pretty well made.

But what does that have to do with child abuse? This is an Anti-Women Having Kids To Get Welfare bill..

See, this is where just re-posting snippets is a really bad idea. Reading more of what I wrote would have answered your question.

quote:

ORIGINAL DaddySatyr

That said; I think this is reactionary (as well as government trying to raise yet more of our children) to say the least. It stems from the idea that "It takes a village ..."; the over-all belief that society has a right to decide how people should raise their children and it stinks, on ice.

I don't grant your premise that it's anti-woman anymore than the birth control issue versus the church is "anti-Catholic". I do believe that it's anti-family. It's seperating children from their parents. An idea that did not work well in Greece, Crete, Rome, or Nazi Germany.

A good friend of mine once begged me to look at who stands on the same side of an issue before I make a final decision.

I see this as a step to empire building and tyranny, a threat to the American family, and something which needs to be soundly defeated.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

i know full well what you said, I just dont see the relevance of those studies in relation to child abuse.

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Post #: 22

RE: Single Parenthood = Child Abuse? - 3/2/2012 10:21:11 PM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
i know full well what you said, I just dont see the relevance of those studies in relation to child abuse.

No. You don't or you would have seen:

quote:

ORIGINAL DaddySatyr
While I certainly don't agree with this bill (talk about "government over-stepping"?) I think it's another pendulum issue.

and this:

quote:

ORIGINAL DaddySatyr

That said; I think this is reactionary (as well as government trying to raise yet more of our children) to say the least.

See, I used the words "pendulum" and "reactionary" to show that it's a zealous attempt to shock people into thinking that somewhere in-between would be "good". That was the reason for my mentioning the idea that children from two-parent families seem to have a better life.

I was a single parent and I know that things can and do get missed. That doesn't make it abuse. It certainly doesn't mean that the answer is to control peoples' reproductive rights nor is it a good idea to further damage children by ripping them from their family.

Once again, your attempt to paint me as a "bad guy" by mis-representing my position is not a good tactic. It's not the first time it's happened but it is the last time I'll respond to it. It's straw-manning at best and slander/libel, at worst. It's beneath people that wish to engage in civilized discussion.

Why not just celebrate the fact that we're agreed that this bill is a bad thing?

Peace and comfort,

Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 3/2/2012 10:26:26 PM >

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RE: Single Parenthood = Child Abuse? - 3/2/2012 10:55:13 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
i know full well what you said, I just dont see the relevance of those studies in relation to child abuse.

No. You don't or you would have seen:

quote:

ORIGINAL DaddySatyr
While I certainly don't agree with this bill (talk about "government over-stepping"?) I think it's another pendulum issue.

and this:

quote:

ORIGINAL DaddySatyr

That said; I think this is reactionary (as well as government trying to raise yet more of our children) to say the least.

See, I used the words "pendulum" and "reactionary" to show that it's a zealous attempt to shock people into thinking that somewhere in-between would be "good". That was the reason for my mentioning the idea that children from two-parent families seem to have a better life.

I was a single parent and I know that things can and do get missed. That doesn't make it abuse. It certainly doesn't mean that the answer is to control peoples' reproductive rights nor is it a good idea to further damage children by ripping them from their family.

Once again, your attempt to paint me as a "bad guy" by mis-representing my position is not a good tactic. It's not the first time it's happened but it is the last time I'll respond to it. It's straw-manning at best and slander/libel, at worst. It's beneath people that wish to engage in civilized discussion.

Why not just celebrate the fact that we're agreed that this bill is a bad thing?

Peace and comfort,

Michael

making you the bad guy? I did no such thing. I have no idea where you got that from..

The part in bold above was my point about what you said about the studies, coming from a single parent home does not equal child abuse. Glad you finally got it.

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Post #: 24

RE: Single Parenthood = Child Abuse? - 3/2/2012 10:56:04 PM

epiphiny43

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

....
There are reams of studies that have made the case that children raised in two-parent households "do better" in many ways; socialization, education (not just affordability but performance), their own family lives, etc. The case has been pretty well made.
....
Peace and comfort,

Michael

I don't think so. My best Psychology prof, (My major, not an 'elective') made very clear that by most criteria, kids of opposite sex single parents had more 'issues'. Kids from same sex single parent as the child had about the same issues as conventional two parent kids. The most telling stat was about twice the commitment rate to some mental health program during adulthood for kids raised by opposite sex single parents as the rate of commitment of two parent family kids. Lack of a same sex role model in the home is the usual interpretation of why more kids have development problems in those homes. The issues were clear over large groups, individual families of Every description have great kids, average ones and seriously mal-adjusted ones, often all in the same family. Recent studies show the child's emotional and social development (Certainly not intelligence!) are the accurate predictors of success by every metric and those kids come from all backgrounds. Some is luck, some is commitment of time and energy sharing life by whomever is around when the kids grow up, parents are just there more often to blame, everyone contributes, or doesn't. The just published study of kids using social media and how it affects or enables their growth and adjustment only backs up the previous work. Internet interaction is less real and more 'Happy' no matter what the people feel. Kids that lack experience in real life off the 'net do poorly. Being on virtual com (texting, Facebook, twitter, 'chat') is not a handicap if there is also considerable face-to-face engagement with friends and family/community. All of this is several quantum leaps above the level of analysis our Wisconsin loon is operating at. Maybe someone needs to give him 3 kids to support and the usual welfare check and food stamps to do it on. He sure needs some sort of reality check.

At to the ludicrous law, I don't see any sitting appeals court not slamming this back down the esteemed legislator's throat. No telling what any one judge may do. There is far more evidence smoking is child abuse and something to legislate about as it is voluntary behavior, single parenthood is situational and not in the control of either the parents or the State. But I don't see that sort of logic stopping maroons like our legislator from trying to criminalize poverty or homelessness. Which they spend the rest of their time trying to create.

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Post #: 25

RE: Single Parenthood = Child Abuse? - 3/3/2012 2:48:16 AM

joether

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This is about as absurd as it gets (and the Republicans are trying hard to out do each other). To date, this beats out the Republican running that believes the Holocaust never happened, and Rick Santorum up-chucking at former President John F. Kennedy's speech. Is it me, or is the GOP imploding from the massive amount of stupidity and 'moron-ism' that keeps coming up?

I've known quite a few single parents that move mountains so that their kids can do well in school and the community. My hats off to all of them! This guy would criminalize something that should NEVER be criminalized. I am just blown away that someone would have the gall to even suggest something like this, much less seriously try to make this pass in ANY American states. Hopefully this 'person' (and thats being generous to this....worm of a man) will soon be removed from elected office.

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Post #: 26

RE: Single Parenthood = Child Abuse? - 3/3/2012 3:35:12 AM

BitaTruble

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From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

You want to keep your kids and not be charged with child abuse, you will be forced to get married..

Unless you're gay and aren't allowed to marry. Two birds, one stone. Clever that considering that WI has a ban on same-sex marriage.

This sort of shit is like a virus. It's everyfuckingwhere. Unbelievable.

Obviously, something needs to be done. I've got a few ideas. I'm going to flesh it out and probably start a new thread and get some feedback.. two heads and all..

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RE: Single Parenthood = Child Abuse? - 3/3/2012 4:44:36 AM

kalikshama

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Hopefully someone will attempt to add a rider that asserts that lack of access to contraception is a contributing factor to child abuse.

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Post #: 28

RE: Single Parenthood = Child Abuse? - 3/3/2012 4:49:37 AM

kalikshama

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My home-schooled-by-a-single-parent cousin must have been terribly abused, judging from his SAT scores:

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 29

RE: Single Parenthood = Child Abuse? - 3/3/2012 5:26:49 AM

Hillwilliam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

Its more than that imo.. its an anti-woman bill...
Its aimed at women as there are 5 single mothers to each single father.. isnt that frequently due to the fathers skipping town and not wanting to support the kids they helped father?

It's also due to judicial prejudice.
When I was growing up, a friend's mom was in and out of jail constantly. Drugs, shoplifting, bad checks, minor thefts, etc. His old man worked at the local textile mill and was stable as a rock he got sick of her shit so he divorced her.
When he divorced her, guess who got custody of the house and kids?

That was then, but judicial prejudice is a very real thing.

Think to the last time you heard about a man getting custody of children in a divorce. I bet the thought went thru your head that "Oh my god, she must have REALLY been scum".

That said......Doesn't the Republican party keep telling us that they're the party of "Small Government"?

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RE: Single Parenthood = Child Abuse? - 3/3/2012 5:47:00 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

Think to the last time you heard about a man getting custody of children in a divorce. I bet the thought went thru your head that "Oh my god, she must have REALLY been scum".

Not "scum" per se, but I will admit to passing judgment.

I'll also admit to having more admiration to single fathers than single mothers, but that's probably due to having lower expectations for men vis a vis parenting to start with.

I take note of the single fathers here, but not of the single mothers.

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Post #: 31

RE: Single Parenthood = Child Abuse? - 3/3/2012 6:59:42 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Aside from the all around insanity of the bill, it doesn't even have solid science backing it up.

conservative + science = heavy sludge + water

quote:

The bill states, with no proof, that the research can be superseded by political fiat. Having "facts" determined by political bias is a horrible precedent.

Hardly anything new there, is it?

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Post #: 32

RE: Single Parenthood = Child Abuse? - 3/3/2012 7:33:35 AM

xssve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

I can hardly believe that it was just 5 short years ago I was at a conference and met a group from WI. One of them told me that WI is the most liberal state in the country. Seems like a lifetime ago.

Um, no, the residents may be liberal, but the state itself is a test bed for neo-con policy: welfare reform, charter schools, Faith Based programs, etc., all that stuff started in Wisconsin, several of the more influential right wing "philanthropies" are based in Wisconsin, which amounted to a de facto putch.

Cursors Media Transparency used to have quite a bit of detailed reporting on it, but they went out of business - there may still be some of it on their archives, but some of the highlights include the relatively recent attempt to make collective bargaining illegal (union busting) by holding a secret vote.

Media matters in action took over media transparency, and still has the archives.

http://mediamattersaction.org/transparency/

http://old.mediatransparency.org/conservativephilanthropy.php?conservativePhilanthropyPageID=6

quote:

Grothman's previous attack on the left wing contended that because social programs are available to the poor, liberals want people to be poor and use them, financial benefits he says are driving the rise in single motherhood among low-income moms.

He should be asking why there are so many poor people in Wisconsin.

< Message edited by xssve -- 3/3/2012 7:37:10 AM >

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RE: Single Parenthood = Child Abuse? - 3/3/2012 7:36:13 AM

SoftBonds

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Great SAT scores Kalik, you must be very proud of your cousin!

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RE: Single Parenthood = Child Abuse? - 3/3/2012 7:40:21 AM

kalikshama

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I am, thanks!

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Post #: 35

RE: Single Parenthood = Child Abuse? - 3/3/2012 7:53:10 AM

MrsT301

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This is so ridiculous.
There's nothing wrong with being a single parent.

Having said that, my husband worked with a lady who had NINE children with a variety of different fathers and had been on assistance for over a decade. Yes, I understand that birth control fails, that relationships sometimes don't work out, and all of that. But come on. Nine children. I'm not saying she's not a good parent, but come on.

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RE: Single Parenthood = Child Abuse? - 3/3/2012 8:08:23 AM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

Its more than that imo.. its an anti-woman bill...
Its aimed at women as there are 5 single mothers to each single father.. isnt that frequently due to the fathers skipping town and not wanting to support the kids they helped father?

It's also due to judicial prejudice.
When I was growing up, a friend's mom was in and out of jail constantly. Drugs, shoplifting, bad checks, minor thefts, etc. His old man worked at the local textile mill and was stable as a rock he got sick of her shit so he divorced her.
When he divorced her, guess who got custody of the house and kids?

That was then, but judicial prejudice is a very real thing.

Think to the last time you heard about a man getting custody of children in a divorce. I bet the thought went thru your head that "Oh my god, she must have REALLY been scum".

That said......Doesn't the Republican party keep telling us that they're the party of "Small Government"?

Actually, I know a lot of fathers that have full custody of their kids and many that split them down the middle.. which means either the mothers volunteered to give up custody or they had serious problems and the fathers were the better parent for the kids.. That so many fathers have fought (in some cases) to get their kids and take good care of them was surprising to me,.. and if the mother is not fit to take care of the kids and the kids are happy spending all or most/half of their time with dad, then great.. I would not want the father of my kids to just send a check once a month.. if i had kids with someone (he would have to be dam special) and we split up (which i would hope never to happen), I would want him to be a loving guiding influence on the ankle biters just as much as me...

One guy got custody because his ex called the cops on her boyfriend, he used the police reports of domestic violence in court to get custody.. she wasnt any prize (from what he said) but it was more the situation with the boyfriend that got the kids pulled from her... then he immediately moved them from Colorado to CA..

< Message edited by tj444 -- 3/3/2012 8:09:44 AM >

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RE: Single Parenthood = Child Abuse? - 3/3/2012 8:33:32 AM

fucktoyprincess

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FR

The bill on its face is patently ludicrous.

I do believe parenting is ideally a two-person job - because there is a ton to do to raise a child, even one. Circumstances prevent every family structure from being two-adult and I do not think people should be penalized in any way for that. But I do think as a philosophical issue we should not abandon the notion of two-adult families. Many hands make light work. That is a reality. And the two adults can be anyone (two males, two females, a male and a female, an adult and a grandparent, etc.). My friends who are single parents are managing, and their children seem to be turning out fine. But they would all appreciate an extra pair of hands. None of my single parent friends would dispute that (except for the ones who are earning enough to hire outside help).

< Message edited by fucktoyprincess -- 3/3/2012 8:34:00 AM >

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RE: Single Parenthood = Child Abuse? - 3/3/2012 8:48:57 AM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

Its more than that imo.. its an anti-woman bill...
Its aimed at women as there are 5 single mothers to each single father.. isnt that frequently due to the fathers skipping town and not wanting to support the kids they helped father?

It's also due to judicial prejudice.
When I was growing up, a friend's mom was in and out of jail constantly. Drugs, shoplifting, bad checks, minor thefts, etc. His old man worked at the local textile mill and was stable as a rock he got sick of her shit so he divorced her.
When he divorced her, guess who got custody of the house and kids?

That was then, but judicial prejudice is a very real thing.

Think to the last time you heard about a man getting custody of children in a divorce. I bet the thought went thru your head that "Oh my god, she must have REALLY been scum".

That said......Doesn't the Republican party keep telling us that they're the party of "Small Government"?

Not really necessary that she be "scum"(and I know you aren't ,personally,putting forth that proposition)some woman just aren't cut out to be mommy's
Hell we all know full well there are far too many fathers that aren't cut out to be "daddy's"

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RE: Single Parenthood = Child Abuse? - 3/3/2012 8:59:14 AM

SoftBonds

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

FR

The bill on its face is patently ludicrous.

I do believe parenting is ideally a two-person job - because there is a ton to do to raise a child, even one. Circumstances prevent every family structure from being two-adult and I do not think people should be penalized in any way for that. But I do think as a philosophical issue we should not abandon the notion of two-adult families. Many hands make light work. That is a reality. And the two adults can be anyone (two males, two females, a male and a female, an adult and a grandparent, etc.). My friends who are single parents are managing, and their children seem to be turning out fine. But they would all appreciate an extra pair of hands. None of my single parent friends would dispute that (except for the ones who are earning enough to hire outside help).

How about a 3 parent family? Me and two wimmins! (grin)
/end senseless diversion

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