quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
These folks are pre stone age. They use pointed sticks to kill elephants with no stone points.
Once they reach puberty their life span is similar to the u.s....oth the mortality rate for those who have not reached purberty is about 50%(tough learning curve)They do not have unplaned pregnancies,they do not have words for murder,rape or war.

There are no human beings that exist in conditions that could be considered pre-Stone Age.

Are you speaking ex cathedra?

quote:


Have you been to every gathering of people on the whole planet?
Perhaps you might want to read up on this before you plant both feet firmly in your mouth.

quote:


Look up colin turnbull. He was the anthropologist who did all of the seminal work on the mbuti culture.
These people neither make nor use stone tools.
When they hunt they use nets and sharp sticks.

quote:


Furthermore the growing of crops is a relatively advanced technology that only developed in the New Stone Age some ten to six thousand years ago.

Please pay attention. The mbuti are not farmers they do not raise crops they are hunter gatherers.

quote:


The pygmys appear to exist in conditions that are somewhere between middle and new stone age.

Only to those without the ability to research their topic before posting.

quote:

Are you speaking ex cathedra?

Ah yess, that's the old "thats just like your opinion duh" response that you come up with. Try something original once in a while. It makes for a more interesting life.

quote:

You are the one who made the claim so you provide a link to a reputable source that states Mbuti are a pre-Stone Age society. Good luck finding one

quote:

LOL you stated "Oddly enough as hunter gatherers the women and women only grow one crop....marijuana." - thus they are not exclusively hunter-gatherers. Try to keep up!

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Well call me a cynic, but we have 500,000 who've worked out a solution as a nomadic and homogeneous population.

Then you have 6+ billion of the rest of us who have heterogeneous societies with entrenched poverty and established sedentism.

Call me a cynic, but I don't see how the lifestyle of a nomadic homogeneous tribe that is dependent on a large forest for survival and lives in a particular climate is going to help the 6+ billion of the rest of us.

If you have specifics about their culture that you actually think are adaptable to our present day societies, please let us know, because you seem to be the only factual source on the Mbuti that you trust. I'm curious as to what specifically from their lifestyle we could adopt successfully in other parts of the world? And if we don't take on every aspect of their traditional society, what is the chance that we could achieve their results by just picking and choosing a few select things? Something tells me that adapting entirely to their traditional lifestyle is not feasible in most parts of the world. So given that, is it really understood what aspects of their culture kept poverty at bay? And in terms of maintaining the rules/code by which they live, I'm curious as to how one enforces that in a heterogeneous pluralistic society while retaining any notion of freedom (or are you abandoning the concept of freedom entirely in favor of 100% communitarianism).

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Are you speaking ex cathedra?

Ah yess, that's the old "thats just like your opinion duh" response that you come up with. Try something original once in a while. It makes for a more interesting life.

When you start validating your opinions I will stop asking you to validate your opinions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

You are the one who made the claim so you provide a link to a reputable source that states Mbuti are a pre-Stone Age society. Good luck finding one

The forrest people by colin turnull ISBN-13: 978-0671640996

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

LOL you stated "Oddly enough as hunter gatherers the women and women only grow one crop....marijuana." - thus they are not exclusively hunter-gatherers. Try to keep up!

Since maarijuana is not a food crop the mbuti are in fact exclusively hunter/gatherers.
It would appear that your time at university was not well spent.

quote:

I asked you for a link NOT an ISBN number which you know very well that few would bother taking the time to track down.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

I asked you for a link NOT an ISBN number which you know very well that few would bother taking the time to track down.

No, you asked for a link to a creditable source.
Collin turnbull is the primary source. His book the forrest people which I even gave you the isbn. If you cannot trouble yourself to consult the primary source then why are you in this discussion?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
You are the one who made the claim so you provide a link to a reputable source that states Mbuti are a pre-Stone Age society. Good luck finding one...

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Collin turnbull is the primary source. His book the forrest people which I even gave you the isbn.

quote:

Turnbull was an unconventional scholar who rejected neutrality. He idealized the BaMbuti and reviled the Ik, and described the latter as lacking any sense of altruism, in that they force their children out of their homes at the age of three, and gorge on whatever occasional excesses of food they might find until they became sick, rather than save or share. However, several anthropologists have since argued that a particularly serious famine suffered by the Ik during the period of Turnbull's visit may have distorted their normal behavior and customs, and some passages in his book make it clear that the behavior and customs of the Ik during the period he describes were drastically different from what was normal for them before they were uprooted from their original way of life.

Bernd Heine quite thoroughly refutes Turnbull's evaluation of the Ik in a 1985 article in Africa, The Mountain People: Some Notes on the Ik of North-Eastern Uganda.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
http://alfred.med.yale.edu:8080/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page/mbuti&redirect=no

"The Ituri Forest [located in the modern day Democratic Republic of the Congo], depending on how you measure it, is about fifty thousand square miles, and is part of what used to be a much larger forest extending right through to the Atlantic coast, an expanse now broken by large tracts of open farmland. Within the Ituri lived about forty thousand Mbuti pygmies, living much as they had always lived, by hunting and gathering, with a pre-stone-age technology." (Turnbull 28, source 1)

quote:

Yet, Colin Turnbull himself (1976: 117), actually described the Mbuti as having an economy at “the Stone Age level”

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

I cannot be wrong about what you choose to see because you have posted what you choose to see.

quote:


When you wish to have a serious discussion please come back.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

I cannot be wrong about what you choose to see because you have posted what you choose to see.

Wrong. What I've posted is the conclusions that arose from what I see.

quote:


When you wish to have a serious discussion please come back.

Says the person whose response was "You're wrong" with no substance; just an ad hominem logical fallacy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

You haven't answered what aspects of Mbuti culture would help us battle poverty in other parts of the world. You've only said that perhaps we can learn something from them. I am asking you, what exactly can we learn? Are you suggesting that 6 billion people adopt Mbuti culture in all its specifics?

Where exactly, in this discussion, did you answer this? I don't see it anywhere.

p.s. others who have commented on the Mbuti, also from sources that appear reputable, do not paint a picture of a culture that is easily transferable to other societies, other geographies, other climates, other ecosystems, etc. Exactly how should we translate this culture into the tundra, or the dessert, or the great plains? Happy to adopt whatever they have if it will solve poverty on the rest of the globe. It's just not clear to me what, exactly, that would be.

quote:


When you start validating your opinions I will stop asking you to validate your opinions.

Yet another misrepresentation of what you do. You frequently respond to myself and others with a "thats like YOUR opinion" response by way of dismissal. It is not an innocent request to validate opinions.

quote:

I asked you for a link NOT an isbn number for a book which you know very well none would bother wasting time to track down.


You seek to engage me in discussion but refuse to educate yourself with the specifics of the discussion...why???

There are numerous archaeological/anthropological resources online so it should be extremely easy to cite and link a source that clearly states the Mbuti are pre-Stone Age. They are not pre-Stone Age. The last pre-Stone Age creatures to which there may have been a link in human evolution were the Australopithecines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australopithecine who were effectively apes that evolved into the homo species about three million years ago. I suggest you make some effort to understand the basics on a given topic before pronouncing on it like a professor.

I would suggest that you fail to understand the difference between "the stone age" and a pre stone age culture.
The professor has spoken... so please go do your homework and your reading assignment before any more of your post fill this discussion board with ignorance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Collin turnbull is the primary source. His book the forrest people which I even gave you the isbn.

BTW I wondered why I hadn't heard of Colin Turnbull. He is hardly a source par excellence for you to cite, and it explains why you have such a romanticised view of the Mbuti:

I have no romanticised view of anyone. What on earth would give you that idea?

quote:

Turnbull was an unconventional scholar who rejected neutrality. He idealized the BaMbuti and reviled the Ik, and described the latter as lacking any sense of altruism, in that they force their children out of their homes at the age of three, and gorge on whatever occasional excesses of food they might find until they became sick, rather than save or share. However, several anthropologists have since argued that a particularly serious famine suffered by the Ik during the period of Turnbull's visit may have distorted their normal behavior and customs, and some passages in his book make it clear that the behavior and customs of the Ik during the period he describes were drastically different from what was normal for them before they were uprooted from their original way of life.

Bernd Heine quite thoroughly refutes Turnbull's evaluation of the Ik in a 1985 article in Africa, The Mountain People: Some Notes on the Ik of North-Eastern Uganda.

His is a peer review of turnbull's work. Have you read the peer reviews of heine's work?
Have you read turnbull's work?
Have you read heine's total review.?
I have and if you would like to discuss it we can do it here or in a seperate thread.
But:
Since you would need to read turnbull's work for heine's work to be interpreted properly it is unlikely that you would do so since you have already stated that if it is not in a link to something on the net you are incapable of being troubled to actually read a book about the subject which you wish to argue about.
Note I said argue because so far you have shown no interest in discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Turnbull

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

I asked you for a link NOT an ISBN number which you know very well that few would bother taking the time to track down.

No, you asked for a link to a creditable source.
Collin turnbull is the primary source. His book the forrest people which I even gave you the isbn. If you cannot trouble yourself to consult the primary source then why are you in this discussion?

Now you are trying to be clever by playing with words. I did not say link me to a credible source. I stated:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
You are the one who made the claim so you provide a link to a reputable source that states Mbuti are a pre-Stone Age society. Good luck finding one...

"providing a link to a reputable source" can only mean one thing especially on an internet forum.


Once again that is your opinion.
If facts,for you, only exist on the net then those of us who know how to use a library will always be at an advantage in intellectual discussion with those who limit themselves so.

It would be all too easy for you to wiggle out of this by saying seek out a book. What a joke. Post up a link to verify your assertion and I will read it.

This from someone who will not read a book


It would be extremely easy for you to justify your assertion that either pre-Stone Age people exist today as they would constitute a classification or that the Mbuti are pre-Stone Age. Either that or scan in the relevant section or page of the book and post it up on the forum.

I am not interested in holding your hand and leading you from point a to point b. If you are not an adult and capable of finding a book and reading it then I can be of no help to you.

/quote]

(in reply to Anaxagoras)