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RE: Holder: When War on Terror Targets Americans - 3/6/2012 7:24:02 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		Of course, we wouldn't want to pull a thread off topic or have it naturally drift (as this one did).

No one here would post something completely off topic on a thread and be insulting while doing so.


quote:

ORIGINAL OP of "Caesar, Nero, et al." thread

But, here's the thing: why don't we live in a democracy? We have the technology to have monthly or even bi-monthly votes where we can easily count each individual vote and we can truly let "Vox populi vox pais" ("The voice of the people is the voice of the country" I hope I used the correct Latin word, there)?


and we get:

quote:

ORIGINAL Owner59 from post #15 of the same thread

Here we go......another stab at semantics and con-bullshitery.

When folks say "we live in a democracy"....they are 100% correct....because we do.

A democratic republic...... is still a democracy.

There`s no such thing as a "pure democracy" and pointing out that we are not a pure democracy...... is 100% pointless and meaningless.

I`ve NEVER heard anyone but cons bring up this point.

For some reason,they feel this narrow definition of the word helps their arguments.........but can`t really explain how.



So DS......do us a solid and tell us why these term definitions are so important.




Peace and comfort,



Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 3/6/2012 7:25:47 AM >

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RE: Holder: When War on Terror Targets Americans - 3/6/2012 7:29:50 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		How is it off topic?  I see your point Mike, but vox populi is a pipe dream, we are indeed a republican form of democracy by constitution, our president is elected by republican voting mechanisms, not pure democratic election. Our house and senate, or judicial is set up with republican mechanisms, we hold no althings in this country. Our constitution would have to be gutted to its core to do the popular vote on every question or as you frame it there.

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RE: Holder: When War on Terror Targets Americans - 3/6/2012 7:37:31 AM   
SilverBoat


Posts: 257
Joined: 7/26/2006
Status: offline 		The rationale Holder presented for authorizing use of lethal force in certain cases seemed too obtuse and legalistic.

He'd have been better off, IMO, to reduce the matter to cold, hard, factual reasoning, even if that offended some people, before carrying on with the legalistic obfustications.

Sure, indicting and convicting (in absentia) traitorous US cits who've hidden abroad might sometimes compromise covert ops, but that's the reasoned price that sometimes has to be paid to prevent gov't power from abusing its citizens. If a (former) US citizen conspires to criminal acts against the US (and as in some cases makes public sworn intent so), then the legal recourse of a public trial gives them an opportunity to defend themselves. At the very least, the announcement of a capital verdict (and perhaps a bounty for its execution) might give the felons' associates pause.

And, no, that approach isn't failproof, won't completely prevent abuse, errors, etc, but I think it's far preferable to top-secret directives arranged by persons hidden from public scrutiny.


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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Holder: When War on Terror Targets Americans - 3/6/2012 7:50:07 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Ok....I`ll explain......if you`re engaged in,planning,supporting or facilitating attacks on the United States.....no matter who you are or where you are,you`re fair game.


Do we tell our police to wait until the perp is firing and killing people before it`s ok to take them out?


Hell fuck`n no!


IMO,a terrorist who takes up arms against the US is the same as a criminal raising his weapon to fire.


This is a hot war and you don`t wait to kill someone who is making war on you.It`s pretty simple,really.


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RE: Holder: When War on Terror Targets Americans - 3/6/2012 7:52:00 AM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Ok....I`ll explain......if you`re engaged in,planning,supporting or facilitating attacks on the United States.....no matter who you are or where you are,you`re fair game.


Do we tell our police to wait until the perp is firing and killing people before it`s ok to take them out?


Hell fuck`n no!


IMO,a terrorist who takes up arms against the US is the same as a criminal raising his weapon to fire.


This is a hot war and you don`t wait to kill someone who is making war on you.It`s pretty simple,really.



Then explain how they could place a known terrorist fundraiser and sympathizer in charge of Gitmo?

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RE: Holder: When War on Terror Targets Americans - 3/6/2012 7:53:08 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		John Birch was in charge of Gitmo?  citations please.  I believe he was fuckin dead when Gitmo came around.

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Holder: When War on Terror Targets Americans - 3/6/2012 8:03:29 AM   
SilverBoat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Ok....I`ll explain......if you`re engaged in,planning,supporting or facilitating attacks on the United States.....no matter who you are or where you are,you`re fair game.
Do we tell our police to wait until the perp is firing and killing people before it`s ok to take them out?
Hell fuck`n no!
IMO,a terrorist who takes up arms against the US is the same as a criminal raising his weapon to fire.
This is a hot war and you don`t wait to kill someone who is making war on you.It`s pretty simple,really.


Really? ... Who makes the decision about where, what, and how the persons accused of planning, supporting, facilitating, etc attacks on the US are guilty of doing so? ... Does that need to meet some standard of proof, or does an intramural squabble between two Afghani wannabe-warlords justify bombing one village flat because the other toadied up to the NATO rep? ... And just exactly where did all of those WMD that Iraq was accused of having vaporize to? ...

Yeah, some aspects of dealing with terrorism etc, be they fundimuslims, fundichristians, psychocapitalists, or whatever, could be reasonable called 'hot-war' ... But other aspects aren't as clear cut, and there's been plenty of examples of political/criminal deceptions conspired against the US and other publics ...  

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RE: Holder: When War on Terror Targets Americans - 3/6/2012 8:12:12 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Did you see my post about this being an adult thread?

What I meant was serious, mature and on-topic.




_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: Holder: When War on Terror Targets Americans - 3/6/2012 8:19:22 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Ok....I`ll explain......if you`re engaged in,planning,supporting or facilitating attacks on the United States.....no matter who you are or where you are,you`re fair game.


Do we tell our police to wait until the perp is firing and killing people before it`s ok to take them out?


Hell fuck`n no!


IMO,a terrorist who takes up arms against the US is the same as a criminal raising his weapon to fire.


This is a hot war and you don`t wait to kill someone who is making war on you.It`s pretty simple,really.



Then explain how they could place a known terrorist fundraiser and sympathizer in charge of Gitmo?

Are you claiming that the Navy Admiral in charge of Gitmo is a terrorist?

Where did you find that stupid bullshit?

Christ on a crutch, the thought just went thru my head that the author of this asswipe carries a gun in public.

_____________________________

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Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Holder: When War on Terror Targets Americans - 3/6/2012 8:29:21 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Ok....I`ll explain......if you`re engaged in,planning,supporting or facilitating attacks on the United States.....no matter who you are or where you are,you`re fair game.


Do we tell our police to wait until the perp is firing and killing people before it`s ok to take them out?


Hell fuck`n no!


IMO,a terrorist who takes up arms against the US is the same as a criminal raising his weapon to fire.


This is a hot war and you don`t wait to kill someone who is making war on you.It`s pretty simple,really.



Then explain how they could place a known terrorist fundraiser and sympathizer in charge of Gitmo?



mis-post.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/6/2012 8:30:14 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Holder: When War on Terror Targets Americans - 3/6/2012 9:22:37 AM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Ok....I`ll explain......if you`re engaged in,planning,supporting or facilitating attacks on the United States.....no matter who you are or where you are,you`re fair game.


Do we tell our police to wait until the perp is firing and killing people before it`s ok to take them out?


Hell fuck`n no!


IMO,a terrorist who takes up arms against the US is the same as a criminal raising his weapon to fire.


This is a hot war and you don`t wait to kill someone who is making war on you.It`s pretty simple,really.



Then explain how they could place a known terrorist fundraiser and sympathizer in charge of Gitmo?

Are you claiming that the Navy Admiral in charge of Gitmo is a terrorist?

Where did you find that stupid bullshit?

Christ on a crutch, the thought just went thru my head that the author of this asswipe carries a gun in public.



quote:

The new lawyer appointed to oversee Justice Department policy toward detainees at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp worked as a defense attorney for a fighter who admitted to fighting for the Taliban in Afghanistan.

http://thecomingcrisis.blogspot.com/2012/03/tony-west-lawyer-who-defended-american.html
Like I said, in charge of Gitmo...

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RE: Holder: When War on Terror Targets Americans - 3/6/2012 9:24:39 AM   
VideoAdminGamma


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Status: offline 		Fast reply

We can always go back to the very harsh, and very strict interpretation of the guidelines, but I prefer the alternative that comments be directed at THE SUBJECT MATERIAL and not at EACH OTHER, as each member interested in intellectual discourse should do.

I am sure that everyone here would enjoy that alternative as well.

Thank you for your cooperation,
VideoAdminGamma

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RE: Holder: When War on Terror Targets Americans - 3/6/2012 9:53:50 AM   
Hillwilliam


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Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


quote:

The new lawyer appointed to oversee Justice Department policy toward detainees at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp worked as a defense attorney for a fighter who admitted to fighting for the Taliban in Afghanistan.

http://thecomingcrisis.blogspot.com/2012/03/tony-west-lawyer-who-defended-american.html
Like I said, in charge of Gitmo...

He is in charge of what amounts to the public defender's office.
Unfortunately, in some cases, everyone is entitled to a defense at his trial. It's one of the things that separates us from the barbarians.
Gitmo is under the Department of the Navy which is a completely different part of the government.

I'm curious, rob. Is the Public defender of the jurisdiction where you patrol "In charge" of everything or is the mayor and city council in charge?

You are making the same kind of claim in your post.

You're making yourself look worse and worse.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Holder: When War on Terror Targets Americans - 3/6/2012 10:11:39 AM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
Then explain how they could place a known terrorist fundraiser and sympathizer in charge of Gitmo?


Yeah, well not a known terrorist fundraiser or sympathiser, but a lawyer who in the finest traditions of our sacred constitution and all its glory and justice and liberty for all has seen that there is a right to counsel, has provided it....does that put him on par with say Richard Nixon, esq , or John Mitchell, esq, or John Quincy Adams who argued the Amistad case?

(If I had to make a choice in there it would probably not be the lawyer Nixon or Mitchell) .

So here is the fucking dilemma huh?  You follow the constitution and you are a terrroist, you don't and you aren't.

What exactly is the fuck is the deal with teabaggers and neocons and this CONSTITUTION shit?  You need to read it.  You need to have some understanding that we are a nation of laws, and not all your neocon activist judges can flaut the law in every seat of this nation.  

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Holder: When War on Terror Targets Americans - 3/6/2012 11:12:51 AM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


quote:

The new lawyer appointed to oversee Justice Department policy toward detainees at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp worked as a defense attorney for a fighter who admitted to fighting for the Taliban in Afghanistan.

http://thecomingcrisis.blogspot.com/2012/03/tony-west-lawyer-who-defended-american.html
Like I said, in charge of Gitmo...

He is in charge of what amounts to the public defender's office.
Unfortunately, in some cases, everyone is entitled to a defense at his trial. It's one of the things that separates us from the barbarians.
Gitmo is under the Department of the Navy which is a completely different part of the government.

I'm curious, rob. Is the Public defender of the jurisdiction where you patrol "In charge" of everything or is the mayor and city council in charge?

You are making the same kind of claim in your post.

You're making yourself look worse and worse.


Really? So it doesn't bother you guys that a guy who is known to have raised money for terrorists, and defended a known terrorist is placed in charge of the policy of the DOJ over said terrorists? Oh, that's right, he raised over 10 million for the President, he can't be THAT bad

The public defender has a say in how the jail is run... All defenders do, or inmates wouldn't have all the perks they are granted... Duh.

IMO terrorists shouldn't be granted fourth amendment protections, and think it's a shame that progressive American's think they should. Our President doesn't seem to think so, after all he's killing them left and right with missiles, fired from drones... Does he consider a 500 pound warhead a jury of their peers?

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RE: Holder: When War on Terror Targets Americans - 3/6/2012 11:18:58 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Really? So it doesn't bother you guys that a guy who is known to have raised money for terrorists, and defended a known terrorist is placed in charge of the policy of the DOJ over said terrorists?

Back to the same lies, where are credible citations fo his raising money for known terrorists?

I know you don't think much about the law, but I don't think anything bad about him defending anyone in a court of law, since that is what he does, defend someone (could be the government) in court, anymore than I would think badly of the lawyers that defended Nixon, or the lawyers that prosecuted that cops over Rodney King, or defended the cops over rodney king or the orange county brutality cases or the guy they shot 41 times, the law is not really that pick and chose in our system.  

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Holder: When War on Terror Targets Americans - 3/6/2012 11:23:28 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967



Really? So it doesn't bother you guys that a guy who is known to have raised money for terrorists, and defended a known terrorist is placed in charge of the policy of the DOJ over said terrorists? Oh, that's right, he raised over 10 million for the President, he can't be THAT bad

The public defender has a say in how the jail is run... All defenders do, or inmates wouldn't have all the perks they are granted... Duh.

IMO terrorists shouldn't be granted fourth amendment protections, and think it's a shame that progressive American's think they should. Our President doesn't seem to think so, after all he's killing them left and right with missiles, fired from drones... Does he consider a 500 pound warhead a jury of their peers?

If the PD has a say in how the jail is run, you need a new sherriff. (preferrably one with some balls) I agree that terrs shouldn't have protections under our constitution but unfortunately, the one mentioned in your article was an American citizen. "Tony West, who was appointed as acting associate attorney general -- the number three spot at the agency -- represented the so-called 'American Taliban' John Walker Lindh." (quote from your article) Got no choice there. He's an American, he gets a fair trial with counsel as he surrendered to US forces.

Your article says noting about him raising money for terrorists or raising money for Obama. I'll have to accept that as worth the paper it isnt written on.

He's a lawyer. What do you expect? Morals?



_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Holder: When War on Terror Targets Americans - 3/6/2012 11:42:04 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
Then explain how they could place a known terrorist fundraiser and sympathizer in charge of Gitmo?

Probably for the same reason as they had a Fenian fundraiser and sympathiser as the secretary of state under the chimp/Cheney administration.

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RE: Holder: When War on Terror Targets Americans - 3/6/2012 12:08:39 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		I think, in a way, because of all the heat that the government has taken about Gitmo, they had to choose someone who is seen to be "pro-terrorist" (pardon my lack of a proper adjective).

President Obama promised that ending the Gitmo detention would be the first thing he would do, when he was elected and he needs to do something.

He can't bring in someone that's already had their fitting for their black hat. He has to bring in someone with some "credibility" that the detainees will be treated fairly but (hopefully) sternly as their actions may or may not merit.

I don't know this guy's personal history but, if he is seen as a "terrorist sympathizer", when he recommends X amount of executions (just an example, relax!), there won't be as big a shit storm as if they'd have appointed me, for example.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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RE: Holder: When War on Terror Targets Americans - 3/6/2012 12:22:45 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Not my point, Michael.
Colin Powell was perfectly happy to appear as a drawer for donors at NORAID fundraisers, while he was the secretary of state. I'd love to know why Rob has no problem with that if he's keen to start a moanfest about teh Kenyan putting somebody with a similar record in the DOJ.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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